285: Intensives & Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) with Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen about intensives & Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT). Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 285: Intensives & Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) with Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Join the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new 

In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen about intensives & Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT). Rebecca is a Supervisor & Trainer for EFT, and one of the leaders for teaching the EFT model. Hear why intensives are a helpful way to provide safety & security for your clients, why you should do your own work as a couples therapist, how to be supportive to both partners at the same time, how to be gentle in the way you communicate with clients, and why couples therapy is some of the most rewarding work ever.Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• How sex therapy and EFT naturally overlap through safety, de-escalation, and desire
• Why Dr. Jorgensen works almost exclusively with intensives and has for 18–19 years
• Using task alliance at every step to keep couples oriented and maintain momentum
• Solving the challenge of being an attachment figure for two people simultaneously
• Two main groups who benefit most from intensives: highly distressed couples and those who feel stuck

To learn more about Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen and her trainings, visit:

DrRebeccaJorgensen.com

EFTCounseling.org

Facebook & Instagram @EFTDoc

Emotionally Focused Therapy Group Facebook Group

You can also listen to Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen on Episode 271 & Episode 67 of The Couples Therapist Couch

Show Notes

• 285: Intensives & Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) with Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [0:26] Shane introduces the episode and guest Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen, EFT trainer and supervisor
• [1:25] Preview of upcoming intensive therapy content and the importance of having a clinical framework
• [2:52] Shane's personal history doing intensives: Saturday morning sessions when his kids were young
• [4:46] Dr. Jorgensen introduced; her recent work reopening a local EFT clinic and training center
• [6:09] Revisiting sex therapy: completing certification and integrating it into couples work
• [7:38] How sex therapy and EFT naturally overlap through safety, de-escalation, and desire
• [9:56] Why Dr. Jorgensen works almost exclusively with intensives and has for 18–19 years
• [11:21] Two main groups who benefit most from intensives: highly distressed couples and those who feel stuck
• [13:44] Calming the nervous system as the essential first step with a window of tolerance and creating safety
• [15:34] The challenge of repeated escalation and the therapist as temporary attachment figure
• [17:57] Solving the challenge of being an attachment figure for two people simultaneously
• [25:36] How to validate one partner without invalidating the other: impact vs. intention
• [29:29] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [31:51] Naming the cycle in the room: interrupting criticism and contempt without shaming
• [35:40] The referee analogy: stopping the game when there's a foul on the field
• [38:34] Task alliance explained: why shared goals matter more than whether clients like their therapist
• [40:49] Using task alliance at every step to keep couples oriented and maintain momentum
• [45:10] Staying close to the client's experience 
• [48:33] Nobody likes being triggered, seeing the loving person beneath the protective behavior
• [50:28] The affair recovery story: jumping up to stop escalation and accidentally modeling soothing
• [53:35] To learn more about Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen and her trainings, visit DrRebeccaJorgensen.com & EFTCounseling.org
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
You know, if we're on the football field and we're the ref and there's a foul on the field, we stop the game.

00:10
to the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Birkel.

00:26
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Couples Therapist's Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

00:55
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. I'm really excited to share with you an episode this week uh with that's an interview that I did with Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen. And I think it fits really well coming right after the series where I talked about the four C's and I've been talking a lot about doing intensives because she also does a lot of intensives and

01:25
She's an amazing, emotionally focused trainer and supervisor who teaches a lot of other therapists. So we had a really good conversation about, you know, some of the things that she does when she's doing intensives. And I think it's good timing because I'm putting something together about how to do intensives. And I want to address, you know, the way that the framework

01:55
um with which people, you know, use to work with couples. That's why I was doing the 4C series the last couple weeks. So, you know, I'm trying to explain a little bit about what you would be doing uh as a responsible therapist. I think it's really important that you have some sort of framework or model that you're using, that you know what you're doing once you get to the intensive. But there's also...

02:24
you know, the logistical side of it, how to price them, how to pace them. So I'm putting something together that I think will be really helpful. I'm going to send it out in the newsletter later this week. So you can take a look at that. You know, I remember starting to do intensives over 10 years ago and I would schedule them on a Saturday because my kids were little and I would

02:52
schedule them on a Saturday from eight to noon. And it was nice because I could go in on the Saturday morning and then feel like I didn't miss most of the rest of the weekend. My weeks were pretty full of clients and of working. So it was hard to time during the week to schedule them. So I would do them on those Saturdays. And that's where I really started doing the intensives. And I don't think it's that important whether you do

03:21
uh I mean, I do think it's important, but you could start with just like a double session. uh That at least would give you twice as much time to provide that container to create safety for the couples you're working with, or obviously, you know, up to two or three days or something like that, whatever the longer periods of time. And as Becca Jorgensen and I were talking,

03:47
She was saying how important it is that couples have breaks if you are doing those longer periods of times that the therapists really know what they're doing, that they're acting in a responsible way so that if people's nervous systems are becoming heightened, people know what to do with that. And again, you can listen to the last few episodes of the Four Cs, ah but that's just a podcast. Obviously, it's not an in-depth training.

04:16
that would probably be required if this is something that you continue to do in your practice and make sure you're being responsible about it. But again, I'll share more about the training opportunities that I have coming up. And I hope that you get a lot out of this episode with Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen. But without further ado, here is the interview. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Virkle. And today I'm speaking with Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen.

04:46
leading emotionally focused therapist and trainer. Hey, Becca, welcome to the show. Hey, Shane, it's so nice to be with you. Yeah, absolutely. It's nice to have you back. I don't I should have looked at which episode it was. It's been quite a few years, I think, since I had you on. But why don't you tell us a little bit more about what you've had going on? Oh, so yeah, let's see a brief catch up, guess one of so something that's been new for me career wise is

05:14
I've been revisiting a lot of my early roots, I guess. So that's kind of in the sense that for many, many years I've only supervised licensed professionals and not for licensure. And so I did open up, I don't know, number of years ago now, a local uh clinic and training center that's called EFT Counseling.

05:44
And so I have students and interns and associates working for me that I get to do hours that count for their licensure. And after many, many decades of working with mostly licensed professionals, that's been really fun. um Also, I've kind of been revisiting early years of doing a lot of work

06:09
publicly with sex and sex therapy. And so I've been kind of freshening up my toolbox with all of that by completing a sex therapy training and finishing up my hours to be certified as a sex therapist, because that seems to be a lot more in the atmosphere these days about even though it's not, you know, anyone can call themselves a sex therapist, but people are much more promoting there.

06:39
status, right? As sex therapists, as couple therapists that are also doing sex therapy. mean, couple therapists have always been doing sex therapy. I think at least I always have. Yeah. But that's so much more in the environment these days. So that's also been really fun. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. How do you, how do you, yeah, that's a good uh question actually, as far as, you know, you've been an EFT therapist for a long time, trainer, teaching people how to do couples therapy. I mean,

07:08
How does that sort of sex therapy training kind of come into it? Cause like you said, you know, lot of us probably feel like we're doing, we're having conversations with couples about their sexuality and what's going on with them sexually and things like that. What do you think about the importance of that, bringing that into the couple's work? It's really interesting because in the sex therapy work, they really talk about looking at cycles, you know, what's happening and know that

07:38
sex doesn't really in a couple relationship that safety is the basis of having desire and having being able to perform sexually. So where we're working with what happens in like a pursue withdraw pattern and what happens in the nervous system, those things that I would be doing naturally anyway. when couples now present, and this has been in the

08:07
in the EFT atmosphere, know, George Fowler and Lori Watson have been doing that a podcast for a number of years, trying to help people prioritize that way of being that romantic avenue of being safe with each other and developing security that way for a number of years. So that's not, you know, I was a very, very early adopter of

08:33
putting sex in the cycle and Zoya was very early and then it's been getting a lot of publication around that. So that all feels really very natural to me and both go together. So because you've got to have some de-escalation and stabilization to uh have sex be fun and playful and feel secure. You have to develop that security the same as to be flexible as we have to have a more secure attachment to be flexible.

09:03
It really fits very well and um it helps some couples really want to talk about it. And I always have been bringing it up, you know, all along anyway. So in some ways it's like, oh, here's this new feels like a shiny object because I'm the student instead of the teacher. And then at the end of the course and the end of the training, I'm like, yeah, okay. That's right. This is I I've been pretty grounded in this all along. It's all right. Right.

09:33
Right. Good reminder. Yeah. And, you know, it's always fun to like hear new perspective, new voices, and then have that integration aspect of it, which is really important for ourselves. Yeah. Absolutely. And I know another thing that we've talked about is you're doing a lot of intensives. I mean, that's pretty much the way you work these That's right. That's right.

09:56
Can you talk about the importance or the helpfulness of having an intensive in order to create the safety and security that you're talking about? Yeah. Yes. So I've been doing intensive almost exclusively. I like have one or two couples ongoing or one or two individuals in an ongoing way. But when I've been very, very busy pre pandemic.

10:22
And I was traveling all around the world. There was no way to hold the caseload on a weekly basis. And early on, escalated couples, they don't do well without, they can't get momentum for change without some consistency. So I've been doing pretty much exclusively intensives for, I don't know, was a very early adopter, probably 18 or 19 years.

10:52
and presented at one of the early EFT summits on how to do one, how to do them, did research in my own practice on outcomes and following couples and that sort of thing. what I think they're really helpful for, there's a couple ways that, a couple things that I think they're helpful for. One is couples to get momentum. Like they have, maybe they're very, very distressed and

11:21
There's no really intention of like moving through to security in an intensive, like, you know, nobody's nervous system can remap that fast, right? But you can get them a very good felt sense of where they get stuck and have a set kind of an understanding of their cycle and an ability to start to interrupt it.

11:48
So there's some early momentum for highly distressed couples who that can really augment their therapy. other way I find intensives really helpful is couples who've been in therapy and are feel like they're hit a stall or a stuck place. um, or maybe they're working with a couple therapist and it's not enough time to get them

12:18
by the end of any one session in kind of a calmed place enough to go out the door and feel like things are kind of wrapped up in sort of a way, you know, like maybe it takes them a long time to open up or they come in so escalated that the therapist can't kind of get them calmed down enough and they leave in distress. The chem in distress, leave in distress. And so, so then an intensive is really helpful.

12:47
in those kinds of situations. Either they're stuck in therapy or they're leaving therapy pretty discouraged because they're opened up and not feel like they're back reconnected with each other by the time they leave. And then they're without any skill or what to do in between times. So the weekly feels so long and hard. So those are really helpful ways for people. And then, you know, I've certainly have couples

13:15
and see a lot of couple therapists who can do so much on their own, but can't do the formal EFT change events like the withdrawal, re-engagement, pursuers, often on their own. So they come in pretty deescalated and they just want an experience of, and to have those change events happen. That's more rare, but certainly fun when it happens. Yeah, that's great. I mean, do you see that calming of the nervous system as

13:44
often or always even the first step in helping couples to sort of begin the process? Well, you know, you have to be able to create safety. Like we don't learn well, we don't develop new experiences. we're as humans, if we're out of our window of tolerance, it's really hard to take any sort of new learning in. being able to

14:11
have therapy be a safe place is, you know, like Alliance 101, right? Like we have to, they have to be able to feel at least seen and heard by us, maybe not yet by their partner and have enough safety that they can go, oh, this is what's happening and be able to go, this is what's happening inside of me and this is what's happening between us and have that scene. yeah, like that's step one of.

14:40
Like, but we're not going to get anywhere if we can't create some safety. Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, I mean, I'm sure anybody who has worked with couples before has had that experience where if you only have 50 minutes, uh, and it's maybe the first time you've met with someone or one of the first times, you know, and things get escalated, it's really hard to feel like you can do anything really. I mean,

15:09
And, and, know, yeah, the, the intensity is so high and there's, there can be a lot of contempt. There can be, you know, so much hostility and being able to get in there and calm that down when we do with couples, people don't know yet, you know, that can be very challenging to do that. Yeah. And if that happens repeatedly, like with some couples,

15:34
You know, I think, well, we're people too. So we have a bad first experience. have a bad first experience with us. We try to put ourselves back together. come back in, they're still escalated again. And so, you know, of course that our own ability to be kind of grounded. So in EFT, we're, we're seeing where the temporary attachment figure and we're trying to help. Co-regulate to other nervous systems along with our own. Yeah.

16:03
that's important for creating safety. Yeah. And hard to do. And then, so we can get really triggered by particular patterns, particular presentations, right? Particular couples. So sometimes, and even, even the best of us, you know, like, feel like I have a pretty solid nervous system at this point with whatever comes in the door doesn't mean that I don't get

16:31
you know, triggered like my own stuff or feel like, ah, what do I do in any one moment? But I've learned how to do a lot of that in session to come back to myself, right? Yeah, no, that's great. And I think, you know, I try to emphasize on the podcast all the time about the importance of therapists doing their own work. I definitely think that makes us better therapists for the people we're working with.

16:59
And I appreciate what you're saying. You know, no matter how experienced you are, you're still a human being and that's totally, it's going to happen. And that's totally normal to sort of, um, feel those triggers come up sometimes. Yeah. And I think as we're learning to be couple therapists, it's such a different atmosphere in the room than with one percent. Right. alliance is not nearly as fragile. Like a certainly with

17:27
some of our traumatized clients alliance is going to be fragile, but it's a different atmosphere and the different risks for our clients to come in together. It's very vulnerable. Like they, they have no idea. Are you going to be on my side or my partner's side, or are you going to actually see both of us? They, and they don't even know necessarily what to expect. Right. So I think every new couple is a kind of a new challenge in that way.

17:57
All right. Meeting them, being able to feel secure in ourselves and meeting them. And then like finding out who they are, where they're going. We're part of the fun of it actually. Right. It's like solving a mystery. It is. Yeah. And you use the word temporary attachment figure. I think it was. Yeah. Can you talk about the challenge, especially of doing that for two people in the room at the same time?

18:24
Oh, yeah, you know, that's that's very challenging because from the EFT frame, we are coming in really collaborative as humans meeting humans. This is not, you know, from an old psychoanalytic kind of blank slate perspective. You know, we're here actually trying to use our empathic presence to co-regulate.

18:53
them so they can feel seen and heard from us that we know that that calms the nervous system down to be seen and heard. So that is a challenge, especially when we're learning and our prefrontal cortex says, what are going to do next, buddy? And I don't know what I'm going to do next yet, because I'm still learning, you know, if I'm in that learning space. And so having that kind of felt security.

19:21
in or how are we going to handle that? Not having uh not having that in any one moment, like not knowing what to do as we're in a learning journey, I think is is very, very challenging for which is why couple therapy is many people have talked about it being the hardest form of therapy, really, right? And and it takes a lot of courage for like, I just think people who want to be couple therapists, like

19:51
So courageous, right? And willing to learn and kind of get in the grip and be helpful. So we do, we kind of need that mission, that courage and some why, like why, some meaningful why to help us be in that learning zone. Yeah. And just to speak to the client's experience for a moment.

20:20
you know, if I'm an individual, if someone's going in for individual therapy, I mean, it's still going to feel vulnerable and hard and you're opening up about some very personal things, but in some sense you have control of the way that information is conveyed to the therapist. That's so true. Nobody's going to say that's not quite how it was. But when it's a couple, right? Like there's still the same level of vulnerability, but then

20:50
you have this unpredictable person who's your partner, who's with you. And, you know, a lot of times people are, they might be moving too fast with the story, or they might be saying things that feel like criticism. And, know, all of a sudden they, you know, their protective parts are coming up and saying like, no, that's not true. And it's like, you know, so much more difficult for the therapist to navigate. There's these

21:18
two nervous systems interacting with each other, not just, you know, listening to one person's story and creating safety for that individual. It's a heavy, it can be really heavy. I know as I, as I am supervising and training new couple therapists that sometimes they'll say things like, you know, Oh, wow, you know, it was just so hard or it's so heavy, or they feel the sympathetic nervous system, you know, reaction and

21:47
And of course, holding it together in the room and then afterwards, feel all this review and anxiety about it and what did I do right? What did I do wrong? And, you know, can take sometimes hours to settle down because we maybe not even know what hit us and like what hit us. you know, I can, I now like, I now have my own process for when that happens to me that I can go, okay, what, where did I feel that?

22:15
Uh-oh, and I wasn't able to use it. Where did I feel my danger signal go? Ding, ding, danger. And most of the time, I know how to use it. But sometimes if I'm hitting some kind of blind spot in my Johari window, some place that I haven't explored yet, or maybe there's something going on that I feel particularly vulnerable about and it's not in my conscious awareness, now I know what to do.

22:44
like in between after session, like I can do my own, we call it the affect assembly or the process of emotion. Like what happens after the danger signal? Oh, danger, danger. And then, but that's unconscious, right? Good, bad, with me, against me, that danger signal goes off, which is unconscious. And we feel it then somatically, that threat that comes on board, which then if it's this unconscious process unfolding, it goes from the body to

23:13
what we would say is emotion, because emotion is an embodied experience, that we have particular words to describe that physiological change, and then move into that protective response with protective emotion. What am I telling myself? What's the meaning making and what am I doing? So now I know that I can go and break that down for myself and go, okay, what was the threat?

23:41
What, what was my nervous system telling me? Was that fight or flight? Was that like from a shutdown place? Cause I have my own places that have been overwhelmed, you know, did it. So is there some, some shame response that I haven't processed in a way that I could stay, you know, that I stayed in my own nervous system regulation or could get back to that window of safety pretty readily. And that really, really helps.

24:11
And or to call a friend. Yeah, right. Well, I love the way you're talking about doing the work as a therapist and coming through that, perhaps going to supervision or, or, you know, thinking about it for yourself, exploring those things that, you know, one being curious about things that you may not have been conscious of before. It's, it's almost like part of your own healing journey.

24:38
And part of like an opportunity for your own sort of healing to happen through that experience. Cause you're, you're trying to become more conscious. Yeah. It's part of my own growth and development as a person, right. To make sure that I'm, because it means so much to me to be present for my clients and to be there for them so that I can help in those places where they felt so alone and frightened and

25:07
without the support that they needed to show up as their best selves and to grow into their best selves. Like that just matters so much that it's very motivating to like, okay, how do I show up better? I show up better, I get more regulated. Yeah. And of course we can learn our craft better too, which gives us more security, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I'm thinking back to the idea of

25:36
creating the safety for two people or even being a temporary attachment figure. Can you say a little bit about how you would accomplish that or, some, I know we could probably have like a five hour conversation about that, but. Well, this image just came to my mind as you asked me again about it, which is a mother or a father holding twins. You know how they have one in one arm and one in the other arm?

26:04
And what if they're both hungry or fussy at the same time? That's the image that came to my mind. Like as this temporary attachment figure and you got two fussy babies, maybe one really mad and screaming and one like what diaper, you know, they need your attention, whatever. And what do we do then? And when that's the case, cause when we have really distressed couples, that's their nervous system is saying, help me. You know, I need support.

26:33
I need your attention too. Right. And so the more dysregulation there is, the more there's a need to attend to both. So while I'm looking at this one and my arms just kind of naturally come in like, I want to be able to have them both in view, even if I'm attending to one at the, any one moment, like I want to try to sue the one, but not leave the other one alone too long. And so as, as that happens, as we're able to

27:04
hold both and sometimes both like, yeah, you're both really struggling. And then a little attention to one and a little attention to the other that that soothing starts to take place. so that the image for me is that the more distress there is, the more we hold the unit like the two and that we have to quickly be with one and not to leave the other one alone too long. So we can continue to add.

27:34
to the soothing. Yeah. Yeah, I love that analogy. I think it makes sense. you know, hopefully with the couples we work with oh over time, and that could even be in the first half hour. Yeah, over time, hopefully they're feeling, okay, my needs are going to be attended to as well. Yes, maybe we're going to focus on the other person a little bit, but I know that she's going to come back to me, you know, and

28:02
Hopefully that's the feeling that both people get as you, you know, the more you get into the work. That's right. And that's a beautiful way you describe it because that is attachment language in the way that insecure attachment, have reliability, right? Like accessibility, reliability, like I know you're going to come back. Maybe you're not here right now, but I can count that you're going to come back. we become predictable and reliable.

28:32
And that helps, that's what they don't have with their partner is that predictability and reliability of accessibility. And so they learn, they can learn that very quickly from us in the way that we hold boundaries in the session and the ways that we manage the session, that it's for the group, for the we, you know, for them as the couple. And then taking the

29:00
making sure that we're paying attention to each one and knowing like, even when I'm working with you, you're in my mind because you can see my eye contact, look at you, I'm talking to you, but I'm nodding at the other partner. I may use thank you for waiting. I may say, I know it's different for you. So they know that I'm carrying them. I'm holding them even when I'm working with their partner and that I'm going to get back to them.

29:29
Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment.

29:57
Plus when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. I I think such an important part of that as well is the idea of how do I give someone

30:27
empathy and compassion for their experience without getting sucked into the language of blame and criticism and judgment of the other person. You know, because because I don't want that other partner to experience it as though I'm sort of like, you know, believing the other person's story or the narrative they're creating, just because I'm validating that they're feeling experience.

30:54
It's really so important to learn how to validate one partner without invalidating the other one. How do we hold both subjective realities as that person's truth from their perspective that that's actually their lived experience when they have very different lived experiences. Right.

31:21
So it is, it can be very challenging to learn how to validate without invalidating the other one. And then we can use supportive language in addition to that. So I'm really clear that when I'm talking to you and you've experienced your partner as being very, very critical or you're criticizing your partner in front of me, which I think, you know, making that that's clear, especially if it's uh

31:51
impact. I interrupted myself, but impact and intention are very different things. That's right. That's some language that has helped me to not invalidate one partner while I'm working with the other one. Like you, you, one, I'm collaborative. So I want to get the partner who's being critical, maybe being even emotionally abusive or gaslighting in some way that I get it.

32:20
coherence with them about what do they describe that? How do they call it? Right? I may have a label for it, that's my own, and sometimes I will introduce that. But I also want to get from them, what do they call it when they are doing, and I may repeat what they say. When you just now said, my partner is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, how would you describe that? And they'll give me some words.

32:49
And probably not. They're not going to say I'm being emotionally abusive, but they'll give me some words that then I can that I can say you're and and the reason you're doing that I can link intention and call out. while you do that, that has a really hard impact on you, partner. All right. So I can really amplify the impact of that and also not be losing my alliance with the one that

33:18
you're seeing that acting, that kind of bad behavior, right? And then sometimes I will say, and sometimes partners will say, that's gaslighting or that's this or that's that, right? Which is helpful when they do. And it also tells you something important that it's probably more, less coercive control in the way of when we think about interpersonal partner violence, that it's not,

33:47
It may be in a pattern, in a cycle way, but not what John Gottman would call hold violence, right? Not like I'm doing this on purpose to control and manipulate you, right? That's not the intention. The intention is like, I'm having an emotional moment and I'm blowing out on you and I'm calling you names because you hurt me and I want you to know what that feels like. It's a very different intention.

34:17
But so it's important that some couples, like it's important that we name that process in the room. Yeah, that's great. And you said something earlier, like each person's experience is valid. Each whatever they're trying to say is valid, right? But I think it's important to check in with people about like, what are you hoping to get from this conversation? That's right.

34:44
if you're approaching it in this way, your partner is going on the defense. Do you feel like you're getting what you need from commute? Like, can I help you with how you're communicating that maybe so they feel more like more safe to lean in so that like we keep like the your feeling reality is completely valid, but maybe there's way of communicating what's going on for you. Yeah. And what's blocking that communication, right? So if they're hurt and

35:12
their hurt and their protection comes up in this angry way that blocks them from communicating well. And that's often what couples come in for anyway, is to have improvement in communication. That's really important. And the other thing is that we don't let it happen in the room. They describing it to us is different than them doing it, right? So, you know, if we're on the football field and we're the ref,

35:40
and there's a foul on the field, we stop the game. We have to interrupt that process. So really, what we're talking about is when they're trying to communicate to us and describe to us, and then they get caught in their story, like they're rehearsing what the last fight was and what they did in the fight, and kind of a then and their experience by telling us, and the partner is rehearing it, and it's re-injuring in that way, that, you know,

36:09
They're not actually doing it in the moment. They're really trying to communicate with us what happened. So we can very much explore that. Like that impact then actually works against you because that's not what your intention is. You're trying to get through something. So you're trying to get through pain and hurt and what you're sending is anger and contempt, right? That's not going to get through to your partner. That your partner has the ability to hurt your heart.

36:40
That's you hurting your partner's heart. And that doesn't open your partner up to help them know how they're hurting your heart, right? So yeah, following that process is really important. But of course, you can hear me. Those are vulnerable spaces. So I want to make sure that I'm also honoring their, bringing their nervous system into some sort of safety while I'm

37:09
confronting what they do so that they can also be open enough to hear me and have some ownership around that. I can hear just in your voice this gentleness in the way that you would want to communicate that to people. Yes. It could be, it could very easily be taken as like you're blaming them for how they're communicating or so. Yeah, we could be shaming them for blaming their partner. Yes, right. And then we lose them.

37:37
So it's definitely part of the craft of being a couples therapist to sort of, you know, be the referee and gently, gently sort of help them see what's happening without me, you know, making them feel bad as much as we can. Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and at least that they can tell that our intention and we can be explicit about our, our intention. Like what I'm trying to do here is

38:06
help these things slow down so we can have a different conversation. So even if I'm not successful at implementing it, at least I try to be as transparent as I can about my intention. So I'm in the ball field. They keep me on the field. They don't fire me from being a harsh referee. Yeah. And it's like the message, I want to help you get more of what you want.

38:34
Yeah, that's only reason I'm there with them. Because I don't have any agenda for how their relationship needs to be or should look or are they in it or out of it. I mean, our working alliance and our task alliance is a part of the alliance that's so critical that we have a shared goal, that we're on task.

39:02
And especially in EFT, because we have research that will say, it's not so much that you like me. It's great if you like me. And we have a good rapport. And that helps quite a bit. But I could have, I mean, I just think about going to a dentist. And I had this dentist where you have to open up and be pretty vulnerable. And it's painful. It can be. Hopefully, they give you good numbing. But I can have maybe a rough, like,

39:30
a dental dentist or medical provider that has kind of a rough bedside matter. But I leave feeling better. And, you know, they did what I hoped they would do for me and helped me get what I was hoping for. So that task alliance is so important to what we're doing. And so, yeah, that's our intention.

39:56
and being there for them and what they're what we've agreed on is the goal is really important. Yeah. And say more about what you mean by task alliance. I mean, so I understand as far as the clients feeling like we're on the same page about what we're trying to achieve here and our justice gets it and so that they feel like.

40:20
Like you said, it doesn't matter if you're their best friend or not, but they feel like we're all on the same page about what we're trying to achieve here. Yes, absolutely. So we've got the overarching why they're there and what, like, this is the way that we work and is this gonna, you know, we'll go forward. This is the goal that you have. You want to communicate better. You want a better sex life. You want to feel close again. You want to feel safe with each other, right? So then at any one moment, I have that.

40:49
And if I have to interrupt them in the service of that task, of that goal, then I can say, this is what I'm trying to do here is help us get to that place that you really want to get to. And in EFT, I can actually even use my task alliance for every step of the way. So there's these moments where we're going to interrupt, which we're talking about. But let's say I want to...

41:19
really know what's happening inside a person's heart or their nervous system, their fears, what's vulnerable. Because oh we know from the EFT research that it's these vulnerable conversations that connect us as humans and certainly as partners, and that people are missing that. In the dysregulation, they miss the connection. They miss feeling on the same page. They miss being heard and understood.

41:48
any one moment because I have a clinical roadmap for what's going to happen not only across the course of therapy, but in each session. Like what's the process map, which we call the Tango, the EFT Tango. So from every move from what's going on here, what's the present process, to, partner, I want to work with you to understand a little bit more.

42:16
about what's happening inside for you when you feel like you're getting put down by your partner or when you move into this place where you're putting down your partner. Could we would that be okay? Can we do that? So I can actually maintain task alliance every step of the way. then also so they

42:45
They can go, okay, yeah, all right, and become more vulnerable and I can organize their experience and then invite them into sharing with their partner this um enactments, which we know are kind of the juice of creating change, of having new corrective experiences by saying, how would it be okay now? Could I invite you to turn? That'd be all right. So I can get...

43:14
and maintain that task alliance just even as little, little consistent ways along the paths to keep it really collaborative. And so I stayed really close to their experience and partners that be okay with you if I spend some time over here right now. And then they get dysregulated over here and I'm working here and I'm like, oh yeah, I know it's so hard to wait, isn't it? Like you want to give me that time and it's hard.

43:42
And then they're reminded, oh yeah, they did agree and it's okay. Right. Yeah. And I feel like, yeah, that I'm thinking about it's helping you stay connected with what will their perception really that the therapist is staying connected to what we're trying to accomplish. That's right. Because, I imagine if they come in and say, you know, we're having a really hard time communicating about money or something.

44:11
And you know, as a therapist, you might be thinking, you know, oh, they must have childhood wounds, whatever. Exactly. And we're going to take the next 50 sessions to get deep so you can have enough security to have that conversation. Right. People get really confused if we don't sort of connect with where they're at in the process. Right. If we're not sort of, you know, holding their hand as we're going along with that process and sort of uh pacing it correctly.

44:41
as they as they get deeper and deeper. You know, I think that we might miss that feeling of alliance for that. They might be like, well, I don't understand what we're doing. I don't get why we're going to this place. Right. That's right. It keeps us really close. So the more as we are transparent about what we're doing, why we're doing it even, and they have some organization, it makes sense to them then in in relation to their overarching goal that

45:10
They go, you know, I don't really like it that much. I'm thinking of a couple that I've worked with as a heterosexual married couple and the wife would say, oh, you know, I don't like it. I don't like to be vulnerable and I certainly don't want to cry. I'm like, I know. And every time you get vulnerable, you cry and you don't like it. Yeah, is it okay? we, you really hold things tender in your heart.

45:39
Is it okay if we land on that a little bit? And if it starts to feel too much, you can let me know, right? So it does keep us really close to them and to their experience uh with enough security. Like, okay, I don't like it, but if you hold my hand, I'll do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the educational piece you mentioned is important too.

46:08
You know, even just little comments along the way. Like something about what you were just saying, like, you know, I know it's really hard, but sometimes, I don't know, this is my voice now. I would say like sometimes those tears can be healing. What's it like for you to think about giving yourself permission to feel that kind of sadness? Exactly. That's so beautiful. There's like an education. Like some people have a belief

46:37
that crying is a problem and I shouldn't do it and just sort of like changing the way they're thinking about it as we're. Oh, totally. Yes. And getting that permission explicitly for that is like that's Task Alliance. Absolutely. And really staying close to their experience. So that was a beautiful way to describe it. Yeah. Great. Well, I know we have to wrap up here. Any other thoughts? um

47:05
No way. That's not that's impossible. You're right. We could go on. We could do it for days. Yeah, we're just getting to like the first warming up here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's good talking to you. love Yeah, I love the way that you teach. mean, I feel like I'm feeling the connection with you as you're talking through this and kind of like, there's that

47:35
kind of pacing that as we're getting deeper into the conversation that feels really helpful to learn. Yeah. Oh, thank you. I feel that way too. It just warms my heart. If I put two couple therapists together and we could just have such a good time. It's the most rewarding thing ever, isn't it? I just like, feel so passionate. It's so rewarding. And even the hardest of hardest cases,

48:05
Like it's amazing what partners will do to find each other, how much risk they'll take, much moving into growth that they will do. we really, I just believe it so much how we're made for connection. And then I did want to say this earlier on, when people are really, really triggered, I think it always helps me to remember.

48:33
Nobody likes it. The partner doesn't like it, but the one that feels triggered, that's behaving badly. You know, that, cause we're operating against our own true selves in that way and our own intention to be a loving partner, which will, you know, brought us together, whether it was an arranged marriage or whatever, like that we had this intention to develop with each other and to be there for each other.

49:02
So nobody likes it, right? they, even though the nervous system doesn't immediately slow down or it's not necessarily easy to interrupt, when we get that interruption and we help them get there, they're just like such a, oh, somebody helped me do what I can't do for myself when I'm activated, right? And of course we're trying to help them do that.

49:32
learn to do that. So they don't get so dysregulated. Yeah. Yeah. Because they do have to take responsibility for that as well. Yeah. I mean, but nobody likes it to be able to see through that presentation and see like, this is just a person who's suffering and right. that compassion. And which is probably what they're looking for. If we can do that as a therapist, you know, it might be good modeling for

50:02
what they can do for each other as well. Yeah. Yeah. It is, you know, maybe not intended to be good modeling, but we do learn as, as adult humans by seeing what we've never seen before. And by, you know, seeing new things like that does help to have some, something to mimic. And I can remember many, like just this one scene comes to my mind where

50:28
they were recovering from a married couple recovering from an affair. And the wife got really triggered and she stood up and that man was still on the couch and she stood up and she started just reaming into him and you know, saying bad words at calling him names. And it didn't last long because my immediate reaction was to jump up and stop her. And you know, I can do that.

50:57
I'm a large woman, I'm tall, probably taller than most men that come into my office, you know, so I didn't have any hesitation about, I wasn't afraid, I guess I'm trying to say I wasn't at all. I knew what she was doing. She wasn't being mean to be mean. She was in so much pain. And I jumped up, you know, and kind of put my hands up to stop her finger pointing, you know, and she ended up like grabbing my hand because I was right there.

51:28
And then she just like started to cry, right? Just started to cry. And we sat back down and her husband said, wow, I wish I

51:43
He's never been able to soothe her since the affair. And then he gets all flustered and withdraws anyway, right, which was why the affair to begin with. But I didn't ever intend to be modeling for him, but it awakened something inside of him that he wanted to be able to do to calm her and comfort her. He saw him, he saw beyond her distress as well.

52:11
beyond her anger in that moment too. So yeah, we do model even though that wasn't the intention. uh Yeah. And I love what you said about helping people connect to their authentic self. You didn't use those words. Maybe those are my words, but helping them. I can imagine myself saying that. Yeah. Everybody is a loving person when you look underneath it and it, it's those protective parts, the fearful parts that

52:41
show up in a way that may look harsh at times, but underneath that there is that desire for connection. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what's so beautiful about working with couples really. Yeah. We can see under it, know that desire. And when that desire helps them change and grow into behavior, that actually helps them, what we could say, manifest.

53:10
who they really are, show who they really are. It's such a beautiful thing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So thank you for all the amazing work that you're doing. Like I just love, I love the podcast. I love the group. I love the paid group. Like, you know, I just thank you so much for all you're doing to help couple therapists. Oh, thank you so much. That's great. Yeah. And thank you. Anything. em

53:35
You want to mention your website or anything else that you have going on as we wrap up here? Oh, sure. um So dr Rebecca Jorgensen.com or EFT counseling.org are my two. I mean, you could find me on a bunch of other ones, but also the two I'll throw out. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I always love talking to you and learning so much from you. Thanks for the opportunity, Shane. So nice to see you. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma.

54:03
They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Burkle and this is the Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye everybody.