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271: Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) with Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen about Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT). Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

  • Episode Summary & Player
  • Show Notes
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The Couples Therapist Couch 271: Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) with Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen

 

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Join the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new 

In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen about Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT). Rebecca is a Supervisor & Trainer for EFT, and one of the leaders for teaching the EFT model. Hear why you should consider the EFT model, how to stay grounded as a couples therapist, how to stop your clients from arguing, why self-compassion can be the key to helping your clients, and where to get good EFT support. Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

  • How did Becca first learn about Emotionally Focused Therapy aka EFT
  • What inspires her about the EFT model
  • How do you start using EFT with clients
  • What are some examples of the EFT model in action
  • How do you stay open & curious as a couples therapist


To learn more about Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen and her trainings, visit:

DrRebeccaJorgensen.com

Facebook & Instagram @EFTDoc

Emotionally Focused Therapy Group Facebook Group

 

 

Show Notes

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
None of us like that. We don't like when we're not being our best selves. It's painful. We don't like it.

00:09
Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Birkel.

00:26
Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

00:55
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist couch. This is your host, Shane Birkel. And today I'm excited to be talking with Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen. Hi, Becca. Welcome to the show. Hi, Shane. So glad to be here. Well, I'm really excited to talk with you about emotionally focused therapy. And for those of you who don't know already,

01:25
Becca is a supervisor and trainer for emotionally focused therapy and is one of the leaders in teaching the model. But before we get into talking about EFT, can you tell us more about yourself? Sure. I'm a grandma of 10. Congratulations. How's that for a start? You know, my big family and lots of kids and lots of grandkids and they're spread out all over and it gives me joy to be able to travel around the

01:56
teach therapists how to do couple therapy and then be able to stop in and see all my kids in the little kidlets when we're going around. Oh, that's great. Very exciting. So tell I've been teaching couple therapy for, oh, I don't know, the minute I left my externship with Sue Johnson, which was in Ottawa years and years ago, it's one of the first-

02:22
kind of externships that she was doing. She was only doing them once or twice a year in Ottawa. She wasn't going anywhere else. And I drove to Ottawa to see her. And as I pulled out of the parking lot, I just was on the phone calling the couple other supervisors that she had mentioned at the externship. Like, how do I get Sue Johnson to come to my state? I got to get the word out. And I have been on that mission to promote EFT.

02:50
and attachment bonding science since that time. Oh, wow. And what year was that around? 2000, 2000. I'm not sure. 2001. Yeah, right around 2000 maybe. Yeah. And so leading up to that time, how did you find out about EFT or has you heard much about it? Well, I had been in a long training program with John Gottman and he always said these things like, if you want to learn about

03:20
really great couple therapy research. You need to read Sue Johnson. So I read her initial book and in those days I thought, I thought if you, I always thought, I was grown up, my mom always said, cause I was an early reader, if you can read, you can do anything, you know? So I read the book and I thought, okay, now I'm doing, I'm doing this couple therapy, right?

03:46
um And then years later, really years later when I was working at the master's level at that time, I went back for my PhD. I was at my pre-doctoral internship program and I was working with some emotion-based therapists doing individual therapy in a mental hospital and things like that. And I got out of there thinking, I need to go get some more training.

04:14
from this Sue Johnson lady. So, and then when I was there and I saw her work, hadn't seen any of her work, I'd just read the book. I thought, why, what I'm doing doesn't look anything like that at all. Right, right. I love that. And then I found out you cannot read about EFT and learn how to do it. Yeah, I love that. It's like the more you learn something, the worse you realize you are at it sometimes. Exactly.

04:44
It was a steep learning curve because I was all like CBT based, you know. Yeah, right, right. But that's great. once you, what inspired you so much about the model or what continues to inspire you and make you feel like it's the way to work for you? I think it's because I got into therapy to make a difference and you can really see and feel and taste that couples are changing.

05:13
that we have a model of change that really works and that it works fast. I mean, not that we wouldn't spend years with some couples, but it works fast in the sense that we're working with emotion and that's where change happens, that's where meaning is made, that's what we're motivated by. And change events happen when we have really deep and rich emotional experiences. And so I could just see that the research bears that out.

05:40
from Sue Johnson and then every time I sit with a couple and I see that we're co-creating their loving feelings again and developing a secure bond with them. I get the spark of that back. I get the benefit of uh kind of walking around with them in this love soup that we're recreating and a little bit of a connection high, I guess. Yeah, that's great.

06:09
But what, so what about the, this model in particular that, uh, you know, and we're going to go into integrator detail about what makes it work, but what do you feel like it, you know, specifically offers that's different from something like CBT, like you mentioned, or other models that are more maybe, uh, academic focused? Yeah. Well, I think what it really offers is we have the science of bonding.

06:37
You know, we used to call it attachment theory, but now we have enough science behind it that we really know there's a science of bonding. And we know the key moves that help people move from insecure to security in their bonded relationships. And we know that people are created to be, to have these strong bonds with each other and that that's what builds security both inside of ourselves and within our relationships. So.

07:05
So it works both within and between. there's this map. I can say, where am I in this process? And know kind of where to go into the next session. So it's great in that it gives you both the map, kind of where are we on it, and the processes for moving through from point to point. its intricacies are really

07:34
well-developed and beautiful and the change is remarkable. Yeah. And I don't know if maybe it would be helpful to go into more detail with some of the steps or the phases of EFT, if that would be a good direction to go. Yeah. So the map tells us that there's a process that the therapist uses to engage with the couple. And as we engage in that process, the couple's going to move through

08:04
these stages. First, they're going to deescalate their conflict and whether that conflict is combative or whether it's a lot of distance, you know, the conflict of can we get close can show up a different way. You know, I saw a couple recently where their conflict was because this big vacant spot between them where they'd been living parallel lives between each other and they're wanting to find some way to be closer.

08:34
And so it can look either way, really high escalation, like people arguing and fighting, or really distant, or kind of the flip between those. So we'll move them into the state escalation through a process that the therapist knows is very easy to learn. And then through another couple change events where the more withdrawn partner learns to engage within themselves so they can share more with their partner.

09:04
with their sweetie and the more reactive or anxious partner can learn to also kind of slow down and share their fears with their sweetie so that they can fill the close connected relationship that really bonds them into security. So there's really these three change events that we're looking for. But one process that the therapist is engaged in

09:33
which looks a little bit like a wheel. It reminds me like lug nuts. We have a visual of it called the EFT Tango. It looks like little lug nuts, reminds me of a wheel on a car, you know, that we're riding this little wheel going through this map. And so it's really fun because it's, think the hardest thing that makes it hard to learn, or the thing that makes it hardest for me, I'm probably jumping ahead a bit, is that, you know, there is a, we are trying to stay on the roadmap.

10:03
And we can be wobbly while we're learning. Right. As all of us know, probably as couples therapists, the couples can try to take us in all kinds of different directions. Sometimes it's hard for us to stay grounded because we're just going with wherever they're taking us. So it's important to be, to have a framework like that so that we have a sense of what we're doing in the room instead of letting it just go in whatever direction.

10:32
Yeah, it's really one of the biggest mistakes I think that couple therapists make is to try to have a general toolbox like we would have for individual therapy and just pull out one tool here or there kind of based on where the client is and fiddle around trying a bunch of stuff for couple therapy when you've got two people in the room. We've got lots of research that that just doesn't work very well at all. We really need to have a model that we

11:01
kind of lead the process, whatever that is, so that we can help the couple. Otherwise their uh system will take over the therapy and we won't help them get anywhere. Yeah, that's great. So you have a couple who comes into your office. You mentioned this before, but just to make sure I heard it correctly is one of the first things you're doing is trying to identify the patterns and then work toward deescalation.

11:30
Yeah, of course the first thing we're gonna do like any good therapist is an assessment. Is this even good to work with this? Every couple therapy you have to do an assessment for appropriateness of couple therapy. And so after that, then what we start to look at is what is their system? What does that look like? What is the pattern between them? How does this distance or escalation block them from developing the security that they want? Just like the idea of can they stay in a difficult conversation?

12:00
Like lots of, how do we block those difficult conversations or how do we shut our partner down or try to emphasize our point, make our point better than our partner's point, you know? Those are ways that all bring more disconnection to couples and we all do it. You know, I did it with my husband just yesterday. He was pointing it out. You're making me feel like the bad guy here. like, oh, dang, am I, you know? So we all do it, but sometimes it's so rigid.

12:28
that one partner couldn't say that, hey, I'm feeling a little bit beat up here by what you're saying, or you're making it all my fault, or hey, I'm feeling defensive. We're just trying to help couples. How can they stay in those hard conversations that when we feel insecure, we want more support, or we do have a point that we want to be seen and heard. How do we do that in a way that brings us closer together?

12:54
that we're looking at that system, what blocks couples from doing that? Yeah, and I love that normalizing even the healthiest couples or even us as therapists in our relationships do the exact same things. But I think the couples who we often see in our office just feel so stuck. can't, you I think you have to have a way to communicate about it like you were talking about. And those couples haven't figured out sort of that way of working through it.

13:24
Yeah, that's right. How do we throw up the white flag or how do we create repair? We know from the research that all couples do this kind of stuff, right? But how do we come back and repair insecure couples and really happy couples? They bring up the problems fast and they repair them quickly. It doesn't go underground. It doesn't escalate to a way of when they feel like, that hurt my feelings or we're not on the same page.

13:50
They stay in those conversations. When their feelings get hurt, they bring it up quickly and they repair. So we're gonna step on each other's toes all the time. We're dancing in close proximity using kind of a Sue Johnson metaphor. So there's no way that we're not gonna bump into each other as sweethearts and step on each other's toes. But we go, oh, gee, I'm so sorry. And we repair quickly or figure out what we're doing so that we can not do that so often.

14:20
And it's really about the emotional resonance, co-regulation more than it is about any behavior per se. Right. Well, and can you say more about, the therapist in the room and I'm recognizing some of these patterns. Well, first of all, I'm thinking, how do you manage that at the beginning, particularly, sometimes it feels very difficult to manage the session when both couples really want to feel heard. But then,

14:49
What does that look like as you're starting off with them? Well, we try to lay some structure down for that. I'm going to interrupt when they start. Once I've seen how that goes with them, I don't need to see it anymore. I want therapy to be a safe place where people can explore their concerns and be heard, deeply understood first by me and then hopefully by their sweetie as well. We all need to have a bunch of management.

15:17
abilities to do that, right? Whether we play traffic cop at times, you know, sometimes I put my hand up in between them and say, talk to me, you know, redirect them. Maybe I just interrupt them. Maybe I, I'll always tell my, couples that I'm working with beforehand, at least I try to remember to tell them, I'll probably interrupt them. That can be so hard for a therapist. When we've come from training that says follow the client,

15:45
just to do a simple interruption, or if you're anything like me, and you are raised in a family that said children are to be seen and not heard, and don't you ever interrupt, you know? Like, I can go, oh oh no, and there's this tension, and now I'm supposed to be the one to interrupt it? So we do have to learn how to do that. And with highly escalated couples, I mean, I've been known to sit on the couch in between them to stop them from yelling at each other.

16:14
You know, just get up and block that argument however I could. Doesn't happen very often, probably less than 10 times in my whole career, but you know, sometimes you have to. You have to stop it. I have to try that sometime. I'll just ask one of the partners to trade seats with me and I'll sit on the couch next to the other partner.

16:38
I wave my hands at them, I tap their knees, talk to me. You guys need to slow down, we gotta stop. We can't do this here. This is different. You can do this at home without paying me, right? That's right, right. I think that's a great line to tell couples. And I you're exactly right as far as it feels uncomfortable or confrontational for us as therapists who... um

17:05
have been trained in individual therapy, like you said, and who tend to be very full of empathy and not wanting to be confrontational. But it's so important and that safety is such a key part of it. I had a woman tell me one time after the, this was, I think she emailed me after the session, like, thank you so much for stopping us because it made me feel safe just to stay in the session. Yeah, so important.

17:34
That's right. Yeah. So we're actually, it is actually acting with empathy and compassion for the couple when we interrupt them and stop them and keep control of the session. The intention isn't to model good and healthy boundaries, but we're creating a safe space. And that's really, really important. And um you know, couples really do. Partners appreciate it. No, but the other thing I've really come to know over the years,

18:02
is that when we're responding out of reactivity, us or our clients, none of us like that. We don't like when we're not being our best selves. It's painful, we don't like it. And having someone help us to stop that is really a very compassionate thing to do. And it might be hard, like I might go, oh yeah, oh, that's hard, oh, okay, I'll stop, you know? And it may take all my effort to wind that back in, you know? But then I'm so glad.

18:31
Oh yeah, because otherwise I'm just on automatic doing reactive things and I feel worse about myself after I've done that and our clients do too. Yeah. And I don't know, I don't know about you, but, um, I always get the feedback that clients are so appreciative of that kind of directiveness when they're coming in for couples therapy and they're trying to work through these communication things. They want somebody who's going to be

19:01
involved. They don't want the same thing that they feel like at home and for the therapist just to sit back and listen. Exactly. Because if they could have figured it out on their own, they wouldn't be in our office, right? Right. They could stop it, do something different, figure it out on their own. They wouldn't be there. So they really do look to us to help them. And that's one of the very early ways that we can do that is to help to structure the session and make sure that

19:29
You know, for me, once I know what their negative pattern and system is, once that trigger comes alive in the room, I want to interrupt it because that's people working on automatic reactivity that just, the more rigid they are, the quicker that shows up. And we want to interrupt that because then that helps the awareness come about the quicker we are to seeing the trigger and stopping the reactivity.

19:58
the easier it is for them to become aware of what was the trigger and what's really under it. So that, I think, is really an important way that we can start to intervene. But now, of course, I'm already talking about emotion when I start to talk about triggers and moving into reactivity, because it's emotion that leads that process. And there is a whole process of emotion that emotionally focused therapy are trained to.

20:27
watch for, it's from Magna Arnold's research about having a cue or trigger and then the limbic appraisal, the unconscious initial appraisal, which moves into then our bodily response. This is the amygdala limbic system fight-flight response and then that moves into our bodily response for preparedness to do the fight or flee, right? And that then converts to we reappraise.

20:57
why this is happening, what's happening, and then we have behavior. So emotion moves us, it moves us into action or inaction. And so we're watching for that as EFT therapists to, once we know that system, we know how these triggers from each sweetie interplay with the other one's internal process of emotion. And that's kind of what we're working on in this first stage to bring to light is what's the danger cue that we're picking up from each other?

21:27
when we get caught in that negative automatic pattern or system that gets co-created by each sweetheart in the relationship. Yeah, that was amazing. There was a lot packed in what you were just talking about. I think I probably should give an example. That was great. you give us an example? That'd be great. Okay, so um I'll just think of a client I worked with recently and it could...

21:54
One of the things that's also really great about the process of emotion and human beings and what we're afraid of when it comes to our close relationships, like we do have this science so that we know that we really need connection, that we really need a sense that you got my back. You're my person if you're my sweetie and I can count on you, right? So we already know that any signal that sends to me that

22:22
If you're my sweetie that I don't, I'm not sure I can count on you, that's gonna trigger my alarm. That's a danger signal to me. So you could say, yeah, sorry, forgot to bring home the whatever from the grocery store. And I can read that as a danger signal, because what, are my needs not important to you? I'm not sure that my needs are important to you.

22:49
I can take very little behaviors and make this meaning out of them that says, evidence, I'm not sure you're with me. So that can trigger my fight or flee response. And if I'm a fighter, I can move into, what? But I told you, I told you I needed that. Didn't you listen to me? you know, aren't I important? How come you're not paying attention? I can move that right into.

23:19
some sort of verbal prosecution and that's my behavior, right? And the meaning that I'm making that moves me into that behavior is see, I got to try harder to get through to you so that I can get your attention and I can get your responsiveness. So that's a real quick breakdown of the process of emotion. Yeah. And as an EFT therapist, as I'm working with this couple, uh, and maybe this is different if it's the first session and maybe

23:47
as compared to already having done several sessions of work with them. But you have one partner coming in and saying, you know, she did this, this, this, this, and this. And the other partner says, well, if he hadn't done this, this, and this, then I would have whatever. What, what do you do? What does that look like in the room? What are you doing? How do you guide them to that place of connecting to those more important emotions that you're talking about?

24:16
So we're going to slow that down and let each partner know, I'm letting each sweetheart know I need to understand what happens for them in relation to this conversation that you just outlined. So after an assessment, I have a good alliance, hopefully. I've done my assessment session, so I come in with a good alliance, understanding their background, understanding their sensitivities to what might be hurtful to them.

24:45
So when I hear that dialogue, can already start to organize that a little bit in this process of emotion. Oh, so they're kind of caught in this who's right and who's wrong. Now let me point out your worse than I am system, which is a very common system for couples, right? But usually it starts with one person saying, hey, you didn't listen to me or you didn't do this or that. Usually it starts where

25:14
one sweetie kind of is protesting and the other one then gets defensive, right? Like, wait, what do mean I didn't, you didn't, right? So it's good. So then we know already something about that because attachment science and the process of emotion, if you're my most important person and what I get from you is this message that I'm not doing things right, that's painful, man. That's a painful message, right?

25:44
So I either, I have a couple choices. either, if I'm really secure, I can go, oh, you're right. Man, I guess I didn't really listen to you. I was really distracted this morning. I'm sorry. Tell me again, you're important and I want to know what that is. That'd be a secure response, right? Or I can go, that's just not true. I do this, this, this, and this for you. And you just don't pay attention to what I do for you.

26:14
Right? So I can deny and dismiss and reject your claims. Right? Or I can kind of flip them back onto you. So I can, I can like ignore it, deny it. Oh, there you go again. You're just, you're just complain. That's you. You're just always bringing up the small stuff. I'm going on my merry way. Right? I can like shut down that painful response, that alarm, or I can get

26:43
hot and defensive and go, no, wait, you don't pay attention to me and throw it back at you. So we know as humans, it's like not rocket science, which is really great for us who are therapists and not like neurosurgeons, that we can know these responses. And there's not a lot of them. I either can be securely respond or I can try to get away from my pain and ignore it and

27:12
handle my emotion by suppressing it, repressing it, acting like it's not there, or get more heated up and fight back. We don't have that many choices. Again, it's kind of fight, flee, or we can go into this additional response of freeze. But, you know, it's not that complicated really. Building a private practice can be challenging.

27:37
Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment.

28:05
Plus when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. But it sounds like if you have two partners who are in the room and they're very heated that, um,

28:34
it's really important as the therapist that you want to hear each of them. You want to, you want to make it clear that you want to listen to each of them. And then as you are taking in what they're saying and listening, you might be, I don't know, I don't know. Tell me if I'm wrong. You might be modeling for them exactly what you're talking about that their partner is trying to learn, which is what, you know, what I hear you saying, I'm taking it in. That must've been really frustrating for you. And then

29:02
you're sort of calming their nervous system by listening in that way and helping them express it in a way that might be more meaningful and a way their partner might be able to hear better. That's right. The more open and curious and reflecting I am of their dilemma, right? Things start to settle down in the room, which helps the partner. So I co-regulate the whole system.

29:25
By being open and curious in the middle of that dilemma have to stop that argument first and find a place to go in but then I'm open curious I'm reflective of their problem understanding and then I'm going to try to do that with both sweethearts and interconnect then how how these signals get crossed up because Couples want the same thing by and large they want to be understood and seen and held as precious to their sweetie

29:56
And then these automatic responses of kind of avoiding our hurt places and our insecurities and not knowing how to open them up in a way that pulls our partner close is where we get in trouble. Most of us have never had that modeled for us or vulnerability meant weak and bad. And besides that, we're supposed to grow up and be independent, aren't we?

30:21
not needing someone's love and nurturing and attention. So we get lots of mixed signals in the way we're raised and in the environment. So we're trying to slow that all down and do, like you say, be open, curious, reflective, and that starts to settle the system so that they can trust that John Bowlby talks about us being all needing a stronger, wiser other. You know, we kind of become the stronger, wiser other in the room where we can

30:50
hold them and hold their reactions and understand them, hold their reactivity really. mean, if somebody's really mad, I'm not gonna go, oh, that's so hard, you're so mad, right? I mean, if my friend was really mad, I'm gonna go, oh yeah, that stinks, that's terrible. So they feel really hurt and really met where they are. So I've gotta be able to kind of learn that I can, as a therapist, I can shift.

31:20
Like I know I'm familiar enough with emotion and the ways that it sparks up and gets more intense or the way it starts to sink down and go underground, that I can change my stance a little bit with the tone or the flavor of the emotion of the person I'm working with. So they can feel really, really deeply understood. That's really what we're trying to do is help them feel deeply understood and also kind of be a process mirror.

31:50
or reflector to see where it is they get caught with each other. That's hard for us sometimes as therapists to do. We got to be kind of flexible ourselves to do that. Yeah. Well, and I, this might be changing directions a little bit, but I know you do a lot of training of therapists. If you could speak a little bit to ourself as a therapist or our own personal work that's necessary to be able to do this model, that would be great. Well, it's really helpful to have support to do this model.

32:19
because one, we feel shaky when we're learning, we're humans too. So same thing that is kind of a parallel process for our couples as for us. Like when we're trying to learn something new, we're gonna feel insecure. How do we handle our insecurity? Where do we get support for it? How do we feel about that? I know when I was first learning EFT, I came in with this idea, like I'm already a licensed therapist and I should know how to do this stuff. Well, that really worked against me.

32:49
Because every time I didn't know something, I felt ashamed, I felt bad. And of course that blocks my learning, right? uh That would make me work harder, because I want to prove that I know something, but it actually made it harder to be a co-regulator of emotion in the room, because it was hard for me to touch those insecure places. So as a therapist, our self-a-therapist can...

33:16
facilitate or make it harder for us to learn, to co-regulate other people's emotion. I'm gonna misquote it, so maybe I shouldn't say it. There's a great statement about as if, it's in Rogerian therapy, like as if. If we can be with the client as if, so that we can use our own empathy, we can find that feeling that they feel and relate to it as if it were ours, but

33:46
We know it's not ours. We can keep our own stuff separate. That that's really an important thing for us as couple therapists to be able to do. So if I get stirred up in session or I go, oh man, I don't like that client or that person so hard for me or I over identify with one of the partners and the struggle that they're having because I have that similar struggle at home, I need to be able to go.

34:11
okay, that's something I probably need to process and get support about. So I can be, stay open and curious and engaged with both partners in a balanced way. Yeah. Cause, cause that's really what we're asking the partners to do for each other. And that's what we have to do in our own life with the people in our families and who we're connected to is to see that, you know, that attachment uh system,

34:39
part of it is just the way that we're wired. Part of it is what we grow up with, but that it's very easy to perceive my wife or my kids or my parents as like being on the attack and I have to defend myself against them. And so even as a therapist in the presence of our clients, feeling that feeling like you really don't like this person or something.

35:08
is just an opportunity perhaps to continue our own work of seeing that person more clearly, getting beyond that, ah those triggers. Yeah, it's so cool because as therapists, hopefully we're all willing and open to do our own work. And when we start to work with couples, we'll find pockets of things that in relationship that maybe we haven't recognized before or comes at us from a little bit of a different angle.

35:38
And so being able to understand that. And our own relationships, of course, start to come up when we see distressed couples. Things are going to have the similar flavor to the things we experience in our own relationships. And being able to, we don't want to become the shoemaker's family who doesn't have any shoes. know, we don't want to be the couple therapist who doesn't have a good relationship.

36:08
who feels so burnt out from doing the couple therapy that we can't invest into our own relationships or into our own understanding in our own work. And so I think that's a challenge for couple therapists, because it can take a lot of energy. And when we're working with relationships, of course, it's going to reflect our own relationships or our own sore spots. And that can either help us move into our own growth

36:38
hopefully that's what it does, right? It helps us continue to grow and learn and be lifelong learners. Or it can really become a risk to our own relationship. And I think that's the thing we mostly want to avoid is how to use what's happening in the room and in our own lives in a way that we can see it as an opportunity for growth. Yeah. And I definitely think that if, if a therapist is feeling that,

37:09
burnt out feeling and really affected by certain clients or just by clients overall. You know, it is, it is a really, probably a good example that they are taking too much, you know, maybe em having a hard time with those, those boundaries. uh They're too tied into the outcome of what's going on in the situation with the clients.

37:36
And I think that's one of the reasons why it's so helpful to have a framework like EFT or other models, which I think are great, but you have this clear understanding of how you're helping the client work through it. And you have a, there's a huge amount of acceptance around this is where they're at in the process and they may not be nearly as far as you would hope they would be, but that's okay. That's understandable. It makes sense. doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong as a therapist.

38:04
Yeah, that's exactly right. And then we can keep a mind to what do I need to learn or what skill do I need to develop so that I can engage them in that process in a way that helps them be responsible for the process and I'm just helping facilitate change. And I can look, I can use supervision or support, be in a Facebook group or something and you said, I know you have one, I have one too that people can get support from and supervision from.

38:34
with, get a supervisor and work on those things that might block us from being engaged in a process. Like, gosh, know right here the process map would tell me after I access a motion with this partner, I ought to have them share it and communicate it with their partner. I set up an enactment and, oh, wait, I look at my video and I go, wow, I didn't do that at all. I wonder why? Because I knew to do it.

39:04
what happened to me that I didn't do it. So if I have the skill and then I avoid doing something, then I can look at what's going on for me right there as a therapist, that I'm not facilitating that change in the way that I've been trained or the way that I know. And so getting support and supervision around those things can really help us come up with our own blocks. Like, wow, I'm really afraid if I had that partner share, their sweetheart would.

39:32
just reject them and bash them for that bit of vulnerability. So I avoided that. So we can start to understand what we can do in our own growth and development to help use this like in emotionally focused therapy. There's a very well researched map and the processes of EFT are also very well researched. So we know when to do kind of what, right? And if we're not doing those things and we know to do them, then we can start to understand and

40:01
look at and explore, grow with, what is it that got in the way? The better that I become at uh compassion for myself, I think the better I can be compassionate with the clients I'm working with too. That if that would happen and I tried something in the session and it really didn't work and it fell flat and for this particular couple it didn't go anywhere, that I say, okay, that's okay. This is part of the learning process. It's like,

40:31
learning an instrument, you know, you're not going to be good at it. The, as you're trying to begin learning how to play or you're starting to learn a new song, it's like that comfort with imperfection, I think is such a big part of it. So important to have that sense of, you know, comfort and learning and taking it as feedback, not as failure. Those things are so important. When you talked about compassion, it reminds me of the

41:00
the research on empathy on the mirror neurons that, I don't know if you've read that work, but in the mirror neurons when they were discovered that they always thought that the mirror neuron was like a separate kind of a neuron. But they just look like any other neuron until they've received empathy. And then when a mirror neuron has received empathy, it mutates or

41:29
changes into becoming a mirror neuron and they're all over our brain. This is Marco Icaboni's research. They're everywhere in our brain. Usually just thought they were initially in the social part of our brain, but they're not. So we can feel all kinds of stuff, know, physical stuff as well as emotional things. It's not just in the social part of our brain. And that the way mirror neurons become mirror neurons is through the receiving of empathy. So

41:59
for us to be self compassionate actually takes us having an understanding other for us so that we can grow that too, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's so cool. And I love how much the science is continuing to support the things that we're doing in therapy. It's incredible to see and to, and to feel that

42:28
justification or support for the work that we do. Yeah. One of these, just a little side note on this research around compassion is that there has been some research on the, on using warmth in couple therapy. So compassionate warm responsiveness and that when there's a pursuer and withdraw in the relationship, which is a very common kind of positions, you know, one person that shuts down and goes away and one that protests disconnection that when we are

42:57
compassionate and warm with the one that shuts down, they become more compassionate and warm with their protesting partner. Oh, interesting, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's another thing. I don't know if, I don't know if it comes from, you know, the training that we go through to become therapists or what, but I think that people feel like they have to bring this level of professionalism or in it, but it, but sometimes it almost comes across as distance or like,

43:26
a lack of connection with the clients we're working with. And I think there's a huge difference between having good boundaries. think if you do have good boundaries, you can bring a lot of love and caring for the clients that we're working with. It's so important to have that. Well, your training may have been similar to mine where you're a blank slate or you're a clear reflector or something.

43:52
But what we know from the research with emotionally focused therapy is I gotta be me, you know, bringing me and my compassion and my warmth and my understanding to the system to have that open curiousness that slows and co-regulates emotion. And I do that from my development around having an empathic, compassionate,

44:20
response to others and that's got to show and they've got to feel it and that means I've got to their them impact me so because that's what empathy is right feeling with so I'm certainly gonna that's gonna impact me as well and we are the tool as the therapy is kind of the procedure or the how-to but the therapist is the tool for change and you know the model can well inform us of what to do when and give us

44:50
really good boundaries and good structure of what to do when. But we are our system, who we are as people and our compassion and caring, using that within a model framework so we have good boundaries around that is really important. Most of us were taught not to bring ourselves into the session, but that's vital that we do. That's right. It's a new way of learning.

45:16
And that's just another reason why I think it's so important that people get training specifically for couples therapy. It's so important to be grounded in some kind of model when we're doing this work for sure. It's really easy to get lost if we don't have that. Yeah, totally. Any other final thoughts as we begin to wrap it up? We touched on just a little bit. The final thought is that get, make sure you have good support because at least

45:46
If you're working with couples and you're effective, that this, and when we're working with emotion, I see this a lot with therapists that I train and supervise and have online groups and supervision that I do, that we work with these longings for more closeness and understanding what's missing in a couple relationships, a couple sweethearts are missing from each other. We will amplify some of those.

46:14
longings to help them move towards each other and open their own compassionate hearts and that can open up our own longings that empathy and that can put our own relationships at risk if we're know if we're not being mindful about how we

46:32
what we're doing, how we're doing and that we, and having support, you know, for the feelings that we're seeing or the couple's struggles, you know, that we're really relating to. So it's really important I think to have support around that. Yeah, that's great. And like you mentioned, you know, there are Facebook groups out there. There are obviously everyone should be in a peer supervision group where they have a small group of people to talk about these things with. And then, uh,

47:02
you know, sometimes it's really helpful to get that just one-on-one supervision as well, if, if necessary. Anything else that I missed as far as those are really important things. think, you know, just some general support, some peer support, and then, you know, supervisor supervision, whether that's individual or in a group where you can review your work and get support from someone who knows the model that you're implementing.

47:30
And also that can help us then with our own personal stuff that comes up when it comes up. It will come up. Yes. Yes. I also wanted to mention before we wrap up that you offer a video series about that um just sort of walks people through all of the steps or sessions of doing EFT, which you're kind of well known for, which I think is really cool. think, uh

48:00
Well, I can't think of a better way of learning something than to just see someone do the model itself. And I haven't watched it yet, but I definitely will at some point. I'll have to hook you up with that somehow. I've got two bestselling training videos. One is emotionally focused therapy step by step and really proud of this one. Both of these are partnered with psychotherapy.net and the EFT step by step is probably, there'll probably be nothing ever like it again. It's the most highly produced.

48:30
professionally edited and produced. I didn't do that part of it, you know, I just did the therapy and some of the commentary. Amazing job about segmenting into the EFT into step-by-steps with different therapists, different couples, going through the interventions, going through the steps and stages. It's a great home study course and that's very useful for people to review, to do either as an introduction or as a review too.

48:59
the model. think it's really just an amazing, I mean, I didn't have all to do with that production stuff, but it's, it's really an amazing therapy video. Usually it's just, usually therapists aren't that great at producing videos. So it's a really good training course. Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, it's really fun. And then there's one of me that's 10 sessions, uncut, unedited of me just

49:26
going through every moment that I was sitting with this couple was on film and you can buy all 10 sessions. And the really good part about it, I'm a better therapist now than I was then, so that's my little shame, my little shame buster there for myself. I keep getting better, but what people really like about that, the best is that, I mean, I don't have blazing attunement and I miss and I...

49:55
Don't do everything, buy the book at times. Or one of the clients gets angry and I try to dive under the anger to the sadness and ignore the anger. I make some pretty big missteps in there. And then you can see how I get back on track with the couple. So think that one's pretty. People have given me that feedback that that's pretty useful as well. So many, there's great EFT videos and courses and online courses available.

50:24
Yeah. And like you said, it may be simple to, you know, read the book and under, you know, you can, you can spout off all the steps, but, um, actually putting it into practice is something that you can continue improving upon for decades. I'm sure. Um, like riding a bike, know, lots of moving components at one time. If you've never been on a bike before, it takes a little bit of practice to master that. Yeah.

50:52
I'm trying to think of an analogy. It feels a lot harder than riding a bike. Oh, you've been riding a bike for a long time. Yeah, that's true. How about backwards? Yeah, there you go. There you go. Yeah. Thank you so much, Rebecca. I really appreciate you being on the show and it's so great to connect with you. And how can people find you? What's the best way for them to find you or connect with you? So Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen, that's my website.

51:20
They're on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, probably a little bit. And then the Facebook group, is emotionally focused therapy. It's a private group. Great, great. And I'll put some links to those things in the show notes. The group is emotionally focused therapy. Yeah, it's groups, know, Facebook groups, slash emotionally focused therapy. Great. All right. Awesome. Thank you so for you do to promote good and good couple therapy because

51:50
mean, couple therapy is so important. It's where it makes the environment that kids are raised in. It's the place that we can really change generations, I think, is through this main dyadic system of the couple and the loving relationship that we all rely on so much. So I just think it's so important that we are able to do it well.

52:15
Oh yeah, I love that. I love talking about how, you know, we're changing legacies for generations to come by the work that we do. Absolutely. Yeah, that's great. All right. Well, thank you so much. Thanks so much. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more.

52:44
Thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody!

 

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