251: Compassion in Encounter-centered Transformation (EcT) with Hedy Schleifer

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Hedy Schleifer about compassion in Encounter-centered Transformation (EcT). Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

• Episode Summary & Player
• Show Notes
• The Couples Therapist Couch Summary
• Transcript

The Couples Therapist Couch 251: Compassion in Encounter-centered Transformation (EcT) with Hedy Schleifer

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Join the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new 

Join The Couples Therapist Couch Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/295562197518469/

In this episode, Shane talks with Hedy Schleifer about compassion in Encounter-centered Transformation (EcT). Hedy is a Master Relationship Builder, Motivational Speaker, and the Creator of EcT. Hear how EcT was born, how Hedy & Yumi used their relationship as a lab, the unique workshops she’s facilitated around the world, the different types of listening, and EcT-inspired exercises you can do with your clients. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

• Teaching our clients how to move through the emotions
• How Hedy begins every session
• Why Hedy stopped being a therapist
• Differentiation vs individuation
• What happens when there is limbic resonance?

To learn more about Hedy Schleifer, visit:

HedySchleifer.com

You can also listen to Hedy on Episode 19, Episode 71, and Episode 250 of The Couples Therapist Couch

 Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below: 

Show Notes

• 251: Compassion in Encounter-centered Transformation (EcT) with Hedy Schleifer

• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [0:38] Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch 
• [1:10] Welcome back Hedy Schleifer to the show!
• [1:26] Teaching our clients how to move through the emotions
• [3:45] Why ten sessions instead of 2 day intensives?
• [6:48] How does Hedy describe what a couple actually needs?
• [10:26] What it looks like to be a guide, rather than a therapist
• [11:38] How to sanctify the space?
• [12:32] Does Hedy still teach therapists?
• [15:57] How Hedy begins every session
• [18:41] The evolution in Hedy's work
• [19:33] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [20:36] Differentiation vs individuation
• [23:24] How does Hedy deal with blaming among couples
• [25:12] What happens when there is limbic resonance?
• [28:02] How does Hedy explain her services?
• [28:48] How to learn more about Encounter-centered Transformation?
• [30:45] The last times Hedy was on the show
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
Energy follows attention. Where you put your attention, the energy will go.

00:09
to the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Burkle.

00:25
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Couples Therapist's Couch. This is Shane Burkle, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

00:54
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com backslash A-T-P-P or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Burkle and today I'm speaking with Haiti Schleifer, master relationship builder, motivational speaker and creator of Encountered Centered Transformation. One of the things I was thinking about was

01:22
when you were talking about the you, it makes me think about this idea. think a lot of therapists experience this when they have people that they're working with who really just want to avoid the pain. They just want the solution. Like, how do I not feel angry anymore? How do I not feel depressed anymore? And I think in good therapy, oftentimes we're guiding them or teaching them to move through the emotions.

01:52
part of the process is to feel the hurt or the sadness or these things. And I feel like that I was thinking about that when you were talking about the you, you have to go through that difficult stuff. That is exactly it. Going down the you is really going to the darkest place you've never faced, never verbalized. And to dare to be at the bottom of the you and discover.

02:22
the bottom of the U. And acceptance that all of that is part of our human experience and it's okay. Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I even think that maybe our world and our country needs to go to the bottom of the U. There are things in order for there to really be

02:50
a new understanding and a new solution and a new era that we as a country in a way need to go to the bottom of the U, things we've not named, things we've not felt, things we're not known to be able then to come up to U into a new era. Yeah, yeah, I love that. It's kind of like

03:19
what you were talking about with moving into consciousness as a country, you know, being honest, being authentic about the truth of what the reality is. Yes. Yes. And that's painful. People would rather not look at that. Yeah. Moving into consciousness as a country. indeed. Yep. Yep. You were talking about, you know, the 10 sessions and I was wondering, you know, is that

03:49
I know, I think that I remember you used to do a lot of intensives, you know, where you would have a couple for maybe two full days or something like that. Exactly. So let me tell you what happened. So I used to do two full days or three full days, depending. 96, 96, I loved it. And it was transformational. For couples, there was a before, there was an after. Then COVID came. And

04:19
I wondered, you know, can I do the work I do on Zoom? Because I don't see your hands, I don't see your feet. Can this be done on Zoom? And I started just to check it out. You know, can I do my work on Zoom? And I discovered that the soul doesn't care that it's Zoom. The soul feels connected, the energy of

04:46
soul to soul connection. I mean, you can feel it right now between the two of us. There is flow, there is energy, there is connectedness, you know, it's all there. There was an amazing realization. And so I decided, yeah, I can do it on Zoom, but what do I do on Zoom? And I took the two day, three day concept and divided it into 10 two hour sessions.

05:15
And so I do that same journey really that I used to do in the intensive, in person intensive, I now do intense sessions on Zoom. And the way I work is couples will do, I give them a free consultation. And in the consultation, I describe, like what I've described to you, I'm describing to them what we're gonna be doing. And so,

05:43
Some couples want it, some couples don't, you And so the couples who want it, the other couples, I then do my journey with. Which is nice because every couple who comes is totally committed to the journey, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, after I've heard you talk through it, I'm thinking to myself, this is such a meaningful transformational experience for people to have.

06:13
Yeah. Right. And for some couples, it's like, you're not going to look at our problems. No, you know. And so some couples, for some couples, it isn't what they want. You know, what's nice for me is every couple who commits is really committed to their journey. They know what it's going to be and they are committed to it. And so it's a.

06:41
It's been a nice evolution for me with Zoom. I have a question about what you were just saying. If a couple comes in and they think that their problem is arguing about finances or something like that, how would you describe what the problem truly is? Because like you said, you're not going to get into a 10-hour conversation about finances with them. How would you describe what they really need?

07:10
I don't describe what they need. I describe what I give them. Okay. I give you is a session of aspirations and dreams in which you're really beginning with the end in sight. What is it you would love? So, one person might say, I would love us to have very productive conversations about sensitive subjects like money. And I would love those conversations to lead

07:39
to extraordinary results. That's an aspiration. It will be on the horizon. And we then will be going in that direction because you know, the neighborhood of money is a wonderful one to visit. I'm inviting you to cross the bridge. I want to take you to the neighborhood of money. You know what I mean? And so everything will be folded into that way of being with one another. And so if

08:09
If the situation, let's say, is really incredible conflict around money, that will show up in the dreams that will be put on the horizon. Yeah, great. But not every couple wants to do that. Yeah. It's a big thing to not go to your problem, but go immediately to your wildest aspiration for the relationship. Yeah. But that's really the only way because

08:38
I base it on attention. Energy follows attention. Where you put your attention, the energy will go. Let's say you put your attention on the aspiration. We have productive, useful conversation, mutual conversations about money. Now the attention, the energy can go in that direction. But what you're doing with them as you're working with them,

09:08
is you are creating space, creating safety, creating understanding of each other so that I imagine after coming through that, even if they never talked about money during the process, they now have a much softer way of approaching each other for these conversations or something. Yeah, and not just the softer way, they have a method. At the end of the 10 sessions,

09:35
I recommend that they create a little sanctuary at home, a table with the pictures of the children because you know the children are watching us so every session couples have a picture of their children if they have children, of their dog if they have a dog, of their cat, you whoever lives in the space between them is there watching them and I recommend they do a little thing with a picture of their children.

10:03
and other pictures that in the process have come up like the man as a little boy, the woman as a little girl, whatever, two chairs that remain facing each other the whole time so that every time they pass by, they realize we're responsible for the space between. And they sit down once a week to do a visit to a neighborhood the way they've learned how to do. Some couples do it even more than once a week.

10:33
And some couples, when there is a conflict, they'll go, hey, let's go down the U. And they sit on their chairs and they do a visit of the U. So the point of it is that I don't see myself as their therapist. I see myself as their guide and their teacher of a way of life. And then at the end, for them to continue that way of life, this little sanctuary is a good

11:03
Yeah, that's so true. It feels like when you're talking about the space between, and that could exist in any relationship for coworkers, for extended family, that it's like an honoring of the other human being in the space with you. It feels very valuing, honoring, respectful in the way that you're approaching that.

11:31
Right, right. And right now, you know, even as a country, our space has gotten polluted. We've polluted the space of this beautiful country, and it will be up to us to go down the hill and honor each other in a whole new way so we can sanctify this beautiful space called the United States of America. I want it sanctified again.

12:00
What do you mean when you say sanctified? does that mean? know, sanctifying the space is really honoring each other in such a way that what's in the space between is honor, respect, know, admiration. All those things are in the middle space. Yeah, absolutely. And I was going to ask you too, are you still doing a lot of teaching of therapists? Yes. So, you know,

12:30
I am, I just did a day with Austrian and German therapists in German. You know, like it's like, and two demonstrations with, you know, two couples on Zoom. This is amazing that that's possible. And I just want to tell you that Yumi was the one who said to me, we have to go to Germany and Austria.

12:57
We didn't buy a matchbox made there because of our history with the Holocaust. And you said, we have no integrity if we don't go across the bridge to Germans and Austrians. Those you may, know, like always the next step in authenticity and integrity. So we went and I'll tell you just a quick story that the first workshop we did was Friday and

13:26
Yumi and I observed the Sabbath and we light candles when the Sabbath begins and Yumi said to me, let's light the candles with a workshop. And I said, oh no, not yet. know, the sun isn't down yet. Not yet. Anyway, we got into a conflict. He said, now, I said, later, we were fighting. And then we went to our bedroom and we crossed the bridge and we landed, both of us, in the neighborhood of terror. We were terrified of this group of people.

13:55
Whose grandfather was a Nazi? Whose father was a Nazi? I mean, we were terrified. And the next day, Yumi did a Yumi. He stood up in front of the whole group and he said, you probably noticed Adi and I were fighting at the end of our day yesterday and we had a conflict. And it was about our Sabbath candles. And he explained, you know, we light candles, we welcome the Sabbath as Jewish people. And he said, then we...

14:21
visited over the bridge and we landed in how afraid we are of you because of our own history. And this young man gets up, blonde, kind of like you, comes to you, tall, comes to you, and he says to him, you are a visible Jew and I am the son of a Nazi. I think grandson, the grandson of a Nazi. Thank you.

14:51
coming to us and he started sobbing and he put his head on Yumi's shoulder and he sobbed and Yumi's holding him and Yumi starts sobbing and slowly the whole workshop comes and we ended up in a group hug sobbing together for I don't know how long and that was the beginning of our journey in Germany and Austria and then

15:15
we really developed incredible friendships, you know, with Germans and Austrians. And I'm going to Vienna in mid-May, you know, a birthday of somebody that we trained. So I continue to train. I've just done one in Israel. I was invited. I did a workshop for couples and I could feel you. go, you go, you go and you do it.

15:41
Now you're not going to believe how many therapists came to the training. 260. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Great. And you know how many couples came to the workshop? 140. Oh my goodness. I'm going to tell you one more thing. Yeah. The way I begin every session is before the couple comes, I bless the chairs. I also bless my chair. I bless. Whatever comes through me, you know, may you reclaim.

16:10
your peacefulness, may you face something you never thought you would face. Whatever comes to me, I bless the Now, I've never blessed 260 chairs or 200, the couple's was 280 chairs. I decided that is part of what I do. I bless because I'm already kind of sanctifying the space with a blessing. So I got up very early and I blessed 260 chairs for the training.

16:40
goodness. I blessed 280 chairs for the workshop. It was like, wow, but it was so important because it did what blessing the chairs always does. It centered me. It got me into the atmosphere I want to create anyway. It was just the right thing to do. had you asked me, would you ever

17:07
see yourself resting 260 chairs, I would say, well, no, that doesn't sound possible. I decided I'm getting up early and I'm doing it. Yeah, so that's a part of sanctifying the space. Is the thing, bringing the blessing into the room. I feel like there's such an environment of fear in so much of what we do as human beings and

17:36
You know, when I hear you talk, that such a beautiful example with you, me and the young German man, and it's exactly what you have described as your mission, which I think is, you know, about helping people move, move away or, or, or move into the fear in some ways. Um, but, to see that, uh, to, not let that drive their decisions, right. To help them move into the love and compassion for each other.

18:06
And there's such a beautiful love that you have, you for every single one of those people that you were training, that you valued them and you honored them and you wanted something for them, you know, to give each the blessing. You know, I think it's such a wonderful part of who you are and the work that you're doing. Right, right, right. Interesting because, you know, we're talking about a country at war, very painful.

18:34
but I've been invited to another training of therapists, so I'm going to be going. yeah, so I'm continuing to train. as you hear, there's an evolution in my work, like discovering Otto Scharmer and the You Theory. Enormous addition to what I was already teaching.

19:02
and an enormous addition to the transformational quality because going down the U and really owning the bottom of the U is transformational, connection. yeah. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Yeah, I love that you clearly continue to grow and learn as a person on this human journey. Building a private practice can be challenging.

19:31
Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment.

19:59
Plus when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com backslash A-T-P-P or click the link in the show notes to learn more. You know, I think there's often this discussion in couples therapy.

20:28
which is about, some people might put it as the difference between differentiation and differentiation versus enmeshment. Enmeshment, yeah. Well, yeah, enmeshment has a negative connotation, I feel. Oh, see what saying. Differentiation would be a healthy individuation versus the healthy connection, the healthy, like, my partner helping me grow as a person.

20:58
Right. I feel like there's this, in couples therapy, there's this, some people sort of talk about it in a way of, my partner is helping me to grow as a person. And other people are like, well, where's the line between that and co-dependence, right? Where I'm dependent on my partner for the love in order for me to feel okay in my life, in a way that's sort of not that healthy because I'm not actually

21:27
diving within myself to feel valuable and feel worthy. And so I'm just curious, know, when I don't know if you think about that when you're guiding people through the three types of connection, you know, that how much of that it is them taking responsibility for themselves in that and their own healing versus like, can their partner play a part in a healthy way in sort of helping them grow and creating that safety for them?

21:57
Right. Right. You see, the paradigm shift of the space, each person 100 % responsible for it, that's all of that. Because each person is 100 % responsible for the quality of the space, for inviting the other to them if they have something to talk about and visit a neighborhood. And so I teach the art of

22:26
hosting and the art of visiting, you know, how do I invite you into my world like I did today and you've come over the bridge and and so I hosted and you visited and I teach that piece and the moment you introduce I introduce the idea of you're both 100 % responsible for the quality of the space already is interdependent not dependent. Yes. Yes.

22:55
You see? The whole paradigm does not allow for codependency. Yes, yes. But what if you notice as a therapist, if you notice that there's something being communicated that's coming out a little bit sideways, that they're trying to use the skills, but it's feeling a little bit blamey or a little bit like passively trying to make a point, or how would you

23:25
approach that as the therapist. It's so interesting. That doesn't happen. I'm a guide on a journey and we are now going to go to the next piece of what you're learning. So you've learned how to visit the precious neighborhoods. You've come to know each other in those places of resource and strength. Let's now go to how do you take a conflict and go down the U on the other side.

23:54
this kind of stuff if I was a therapist and I put it in quotes, yes, this would occur because I'm listening to their conversation or they're talking to me, but no, I'm a guide on a journey. And so this never occurs. Oh, that's great. You see what Part of it is how, the, time that you take to set it up and to make sure that they're in the right mindset and the right sort of space to be able to

24:22
Like I imagine that their nervous systems are feeling very calm and taken care of during this. Absolutely. And you know, each visit that they do with each other starts with a nonverbal. Because then the nonverbal regulates the system. So they're doing a guided visualization. They just sit in silence. They look into each other's eyes. They bring gratitude to their eyes.

24:48
You know, we always start with that regulating, you know, I explained to them about the limbic system. You know, if you sit at 18 inches from each other, the way actually a parent to a baby, you know, the 18 inches, and you sit in silence and you just look and you breathe, two limbic systems begin to resonate together.

25:14
It's called limbic resonance. And the moment there's limbic resonance, they call it limbic regulation. The two central nervous systems calm down. And so every visit they do with each other, we start first with limbic resonance and limbic regulation, because you want to do the visit regulated. You see? And so they're learning how to do that piece.

25:43
so that they do their visit from a new place of openness. So all these are skills, you know, I'm teaching them the skills of connection. I'm a teacher and a guide. I've stopped being a therapist. Do you ever encounter people who have too hard of a time? You know, they have maybe so much childhood trauma or something that it's very difficult for them to get to that point.

26:12
You know, it's so interesting. I don't, but I'll tell you why. Because, you know, I do that free consultation. They know the journey I'm going to guide them on. They know me. They've asked me questions. I have a population, you know, the population. sort of self-selecting. Exactly right. It's not for academic academic study because, you know, they're self-selected. There are people who want a guide and a teacher.

26:41
into consciousness. so, yeah, so the couples I get are really couples who want this. Yeah, that's great. That's a good, that's an interesting point because, and it's not, it's not a very high percentage. Most of the time people are ready to, you know, they're open and they're willing to go along with the process of couples therapy. But once in a while they're, I think when it,

27:10
when it feels stressful, I think their expectation of what's going to happen is different from what I might be trying to do as the couples therapist. maybe that's on me, as far as setting it up ahead of time to explain what the purpose of this is, the experience of this might be like, what the point... So I love that. You're doing a really good job of sort of making sure to set it up for them so they know what they're signing up for.

27:40
Yeah, exactly and you know some couples decide not to do it Isn't what they thought? couples therapy will be like and they you know, they don't This this free consultation also came because of zoom. Oh Right makes it easier. Yeah. How long do you how long do you do for your free consultation? an hour an hour Wow. Yeah. Yeah, just so that they can ask

28:08
every question that's on their mind so that by the time they make a decision to do it they're really informed. And then do you say that it's a commitment of the 10 two-hour sessions to go into it? Yeah. Exactly. It's a commitment. We do all of them. Each one has a different each session has a different purpose and yeah. Yeah great. Yeah. Great. Well you see

28:37
Those who land with me really want this. Yes. Yeah Yeah, that's wonderful if other therapists want to learn more about How to do this or go to a training that you might be teaching. How do they find out more? You we've started a community of purpose to land and learn the concepts once a month I Lecture to the community

29:06
And then people ask questions. And then I filmed my work. Oh, great. Or six days, three days with one couple, three days with another couple. And I'm making it into a course. In September, it looks like the course will be ready and people will be able to then buy the course. And so that will be part of what they can bring to the community. You know, they can watch.

29:35
the course and then come to the community and discuss and ask questions. And yeah, so those are two ways. And I'm writing a book with a collaborative writer about this way of being a couple, you know? things are like legacy products for me that I feel the right time in my life to pass it on.

30:06
Absolutely. Yeah. And as far as the community for therapists, can people find that at hadeschleifer.com? Is that where they find that? Absolutely. Yeah. People will love just to enter a community and have people to whom they can ask questions and discuss things with. And it's got material about all of it. Yeah. Great.

30:35
Well, thank you so much. really appreciate this has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you, Shane. You know, I did not fully remember that you and I actually have had. Oh, yes, yes, I know. I know. It's been such a long time. Yeah. Was it on Zoom? It was. It was on Zoom. You came on the podcast. think I'll have to check. I think that

31:03
You came on two other times, but even the second time was over five years ago. So I'll put a link to those in the other episodes in the show notes so people can go back and listen to them as well. Great. Yeah. Before some of the development that I talked to you about. Yes, right. Right. Yeah. And then, yeah, I think it was almost 10 years ago that I was at the network or symposium. I was probably before I even had the podcast or anything.

31:33
And went to a training with you and, and Yumi and Yumi was there as well. And, um, I was, uh, just inspired from you right from the beginning. You're just such a wonderful teacher. Oh, it's so nice to hear that. You know, it's so special. It's also because, you know, Yumi was a wonderful mirror. Like he would, you know, you know, you're doing great and I love what you're thinking and, and it's not there now. Yeah.

32:03
Yeah. This continuous mirror of, you know, of. Yeah, absolutely. all that. So it's nice. This is good for me. Yeah. Well, I hope that you get some of that by teaching, you know, getting that kind of feedback from the people you're teaching. And I'm so happy to hear that you're writing a book. I just think that you have so much wisdom and I hope that you you continue to.

32:31
and therapists and teach and I just really appreciate all that you've done. Thank you, Shane. This has been very special for me, also for the reason I was telling you, just that sense of the mirror, you know, that you can feel how much evolution and I know it's going to continue to evolve, you know? Yeah, that's great. That's so wonderful.

33:01
Good. Good. All right, Shane. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you, Haiti. And hopefully we can catch up again at some point in the future. With pleasure. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com backslash A T P P

33:29
or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Burkle and this is the Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye everybody.