308: Intercultural Relationships with Shalin Carter

 Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Shalin Carter about intercultural relationships. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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• Show Notes
• The Couples Therapist Couch Summary
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The Couples Therapist Couch 308: Intercultural Relationships with Shalin Carter

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In this episode, Shane talks with Shalin Carter about intercultural relationships. Shalin Carter, MS, LPC, LCPC, is a licensed psychotherapist practicing across Virginia, Washington, D.C., Maryland, and South Carolina. She is an approved clinical supervisor and the founder of Exploring Compassion, a practice dedicated to honoring the nuances & complexities of biracial/multiracial identity and interracial/intercultural relationships. Hear why it’s important to be aware of the biases we have, how to open up about these conversations as couples therapists, how to know if you’re being insensitive with a client, how to help a partner slow down and listen, and how to bring up the dynamics of an intercultural relationship.

 Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• What it feels like when your therapist’s assumptions don’t match your reality
• Cultural competency CEUs aren’t enough 
• On not burdening people of color with your education 
• Shane names his own mistake
• Most couples therapy theories were created by people from dominant culture

Show Notes

• 308: Intercultural Relationships with Shalin Carter
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [0:23] Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch 
• [0:31] Welcome to the show, Shalin Carter
• [1:22] Shalin’s focus is multiracial and biracial individuals, interracial and intercultural couples
• [2:20] Shalyn’s lived experience as a Black and Asian biracial woman in an interracial relationship
• [3:45] What it feels like when your therapist’s assumptions don’t match your reality
• [4:14] Shane names his own biases as a white therapist 
• [6:08] How the DOGE layoffs are hitting differently for people of color in the DC area
• [8:34] You don’t have to know every culture 
• [9:30] The danger of well-intentioned cultural assumptions, like tiger mom stereotypes
• [11:25] Why naming race is a skill worth developing
• [12:23] Cultural competency CEUs aren’t enough 
• [13:48] Multiracial and biracial people are the fastest growing demographic in the country
• [14:14] Being comfortable working with a population isn’t the same as being skilled at it
• [15:38] If your personal and professional circles are homogeneous, that’s worth examining
• [17:30] On not burdening people of color with your education 
• [19:27] A couple arguing about what happened at a restaurant 
• [22:45] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [23:45] The therapist’s framework for respect is also culturally informed
• [25:31] Build the therapeutic relationship first 
• [27:17] Slowing down the restaurant argument to get to the vulnerability underneath
• [29:10] Both things can be true, and the couple may not even realize they’re holding different points of view
• [30:39] When a couple doesn’t bring up culture at all 
• [32:36] Always ask who else has a say in this relationship 
• [34:06] How what feels normal to one partner can shut the other down completely
• [37:53] The hardest thing to avoid is implicitly siding with one partner because their experience makes more sense to you
• [41:41] Shane names his own mistake
• [44:03] Most couples therapy theories were created by people from dominant culture
• [45:29] The couple bubble is real, but each couple gets to define what it means for them
• [48:23] Find Shalin at exploringcompassion.com
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
It's hard not to do it. We have to be very aware of our own biases and what we're bringing to the room.

00:09
Welcome to the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Burkle.

00:25
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Couples Therapist's Couch. This is Shane Burkle, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

00:55
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Burkle and today I'm speaking with Shalyn Carter, therapist and founder of Exploring Compassion, a practice dedicated to honoring the complexities of multiracial identity and intercultural relationships. Hi Shalyn, welcome to the show.

01:22
Hi, Shane. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for that introduction. And yeah, you got it exactly right. Exploring compassion. My practice focuses primarily on working with individuals that identify as multiracial, biracial, and then couples that are interracial and intercultural. And it's been really, really interesting work. I work with a lot of therapists now that are also

01:52
recognizing that it is, it's just a different animal, right? Working with people that have different identities, intersecting identities. And so really trying to highlight that and making sure that everybody has a safe space and therapy. Yeah, that's great. I really appreciate that. I don't know if you want, do you want to say anything else about yourself and the work that you do, or we can dive into setting up the topic, because I think this is so important for people to hear.

02:20
Yeah, I love that opportunity. Thank you. So I personally am biracial. I'm Black and Asian. My dad's African-American. My mom is Taiwanese. And so I have lived experience with just kind of not knowing exactly if my experience or my lived, you know, the experience, the things that I want to talk about, if they're going to be accepted, if people are going to understand.

02:50
what are the sort of biases that might have to be broken through with different therapists? You know, I, again, am somebody who's had therapy, and there definitely have been times when the assumptions and the expectations have not been in alignment with my personal values or, you what my family's values or experiences are. And so I've noticed then it's more difficult.

03:17
to establish a concrete relationship with that therapist, right? When you're already kind of fighting against this battle of, wait, my experience isn't normalized. And then I'm in an interracial relationship also. And so I know that very often, the kind of common theme is, oh, yeah, but everybody's experience is this. Everybody expects this to be normal. This is what everybody does. And so really having a space where couples can say,

03:45
well, this is what's going to be normal for us. This is what's going to be normal for our family and helping each partner, um, understand the lens or the lived experience of their other partner is really kind of what I'm dedicating my life to that and helping therapists be able to do that also. Yeah. And I want to, I want to thank you for having the courage to talk about that too, because I do feel like all of us have our own upbringing, our own

04:14
history, our own experiences. And a lot of times there are are certain realities that are centered in our culture. You know, so for example, as a white person, I'll name I'll name that, you know, identify, I identify as that, that I make certain assumptions, or I center the reality that I think is, you know, normal or typical, or I'm like, Oh, well, what does race have to do with it? All couples deal with this and this and this.

04:43
And I think it's important to, you know, for us to have this type of conversation and even, you know, I think therapists are more sensitive to it and hopefully have had some education around it, but I think there's a huge percentage of therapists who even don't have that much awareness of the way they're bringing themselves into the conversation with the couples they work with. And the more we can become aware of that. And it's not that anybody has bad intentions, but it's just that I have assumption assumptions and biases.

05:13
Uh, you know, also as a man, as a, as a person who identifies as being white, as you know, all these different things that inform the way we see reality. And I think it's good to come from a place of humility just to sort as far as like, or curiosity as far as like, let me be open and interested to what I might be missing or, or, or be okay with not knowing everything or, not being sure of everything.

05:42
as we're going into these meet conversations. Yeah, I appreciate that. And what I think is so spot on about what you said is that, of course, we have assumptions, right? And therapists, just like you said, we bring ourselves into the room and sort of how are we doing that? What are we examining? What are we willing to even consider about what we bring into the room with us? I mentioned that I'm in the.

06:08
Washington DC metropolitan area, Washington DC, Maryland, and Virginia, there have been a lot of shakeups in the federal government with Doge, people losing their jobs, and a bunch of things. And one of the things in particular that I'm noticing with the couples that I work with and with the therapists that I consult with is that it used to be a very clear path to being in the middle class if you could work hard and get a government job.

06:35
It was stable. You knew what to expect. You kind of knew what the expectations were, right? You would get a certain education, apply for these jobs, and people were building solidly middle-class lives with that, just as an example. Well, a lot of the things that are happening in the government now are disproportionately affecting people of color. So what's interesting is that I had a couple actually that I was working with, and they said their last therapist said, well, it's happening to everybody, so everybody has to deal with

07:05
Well, it's a very, very different thing if you're the first person in your family that ever had the dream of making it into middle class, know, the middle class. And then now so many people on your family, in your family are, you know, riding on what you're doing and being directly benefited by you being in the middle class, right? They're looking to that as what to do. There's financial obligations that this person has to doge affecting or, you know, just government shakeup affecting that.

07:35
It's really important and it's not the same as everybody else, right? It's not the same expectation, you know, a person of color losing that opportunity, especially having maybe never had an opportunity to do anything that would get them to the middle class. It's very different than somebody else in dominant culture saying, oh, wait a minute, I lost my job. It's more than just losing the job. And so being able to one, just have that discussion and also having a safe space for that person to say, man, I have all this family expectation on me.

08:05
that I don't think either my partner understands, right, because maybe they don't have the same expectation or because of generational trauma or what have you. having a therapist that really can say, tell me how this affects you and really being able to hear that it may be different for people of different cultures, right, experiencing sort of the same thing, but really, really different outcomes or different realities about what that means. makes sense. Yeah. And I like what you said about

08:34
the therapist being able to ask the questions like that, you know, because I don't think it's that you have to know all the answers or you have to study a hundred different cultures so that you know exactly whoever comes into your office, you know exactly what the background looks like. I actually think that's, that could be problematic because then you're making assumptions that may or may not be true. Yeah.

09:00
So that's, think that's the key is that how do we stay in that openness and curiosity and acceptance for other people's realities and experiences? I love again that you said that it's so interesting because part of that is really about attunement. It's not necessarily saying, Oh, and I, and I see this happen often with therapists. And again, I think it comes from a good place, but seeing things like, yeah, well I know Asian clients expect

09:30
this or Asian clients have had this thing with, you know, we'll just use like kind of the common theme of like, well, you know, Asian parents and maybe they had tiger moms or this sort of kind of assumption. I think it comes from a good place wanting to understand what the client is going through. But very often it's an assumption that just isn't accurate or isn't helpful. Right. So being able to say, well, wait a minute, how am I attuned to this client and actually hearing what they're saying? And I might

09:58
open enough to consider something that might be completely foreign to the way that I see this event happening. Am I open enough in that session to really hear that the client needs something different? I it's sort of, I guess at its most basic is understanding that different people need different things. And what does that mean for the therapist? Right. Because again, we can't be an expert in every single thing, but we can kind of recognize, oh, this client doesn't feel heard. Or I think there's something going on where

10:27
this client has repeated the same thing five times. Well, we know typically if somebody's repeating the same thing in various ways, that usually means they're not being heard. So what are we doing about that? Yeah, that's great. and I don't know, tell me what you think about this. mean, I feel like we can use, we can make assumptions. just can't, we just can't be tied to them. In other words, like I'd want to check that out with the individual person, you know? So if

10:56
Like the example that you gave, if I had a client with an Asian background, I could ask, were getting good grades a really important part of your upbringing? Was that important to your parents? Did you feel a lot of pressure about that? But I have to be willing to accept that it may or may not be true and continue to, like you said, stay attuned to what the client's experience is.

11:25
It's interesting because I can't tell you how often it comes up when I'm working with or supervising therapists and I'll ask them, well, did you ask the client? And they're afraid to bring it up, right? They're afraid to bring up race. And I can understand that, right? There's a lot of vitriol on the internet or just in places. And it's scary sometimes to talk about race. So being able to have a conversation, get case consultation, get supervision and talk to somebody because

11:54
If we don't name it, then maybe we're missing an opportunity. We have to kind of name what we're experiencing in the room, calling it out and learning how to have those difficult, sometimes uncomfortable conversations, I think is a real skill set that a lot of therapists are curious about and not really know. I don't know if they know where to go to get that information. Most people take cultural competency CEUs. We're in there. We take the multi.

12:23
choice questionnaire and then we're like, wait a minute, does that mean I'm culturally competent now? Or is there more information that I need? And so I think it's, it's just like you said, being curious. I think also consulting with therapists, consultation groups, right? Being in community with people of color to really have the experience so that we can feel more comfortable. Yeah, that's great. So I am curious. mean, you have it on your

12:49
practice website as far as like I work with multicultural couples. And so it's very clear, but it, but just to start this conversation, if, if there's a therapist out there, you know, they don't have anything like that on their website. People are coming into their office. Like how do, how do we let you, you were just saying something like it's, it's important to sort of ask the questions or make them feel like they can talk about these things or whatever. Like,

13:19
How do we as therapists help people open up about those things or how direct should we be about it or whatever? Great question. So one, I think it's very likely that therapists are going to have exactly that experience. I think people who identify as multiracial, biracial, that's the fastest growing demographic in the country. So it's very, very likely that a therapist is going to have somebody come in.

13:48
doesn't identify as just one culture or as similar culture as the therapist, right? So being able to say, OK, am I naming this? What's happening here is really, really important. And for me, I think the thing that works best is being in community and having case consultation with therapists that you know what they're talking about. Supervision is super important. So I'll just give an example.

14:14
there is a client that I had that came in and they asked me like, are you comfortable working with the LGBTQ plus IA community? And my answer is absolutely, I'm comfortable, I'm open to it, right? I welcome clients who identify as LGBTQIA, right? I welcome that. And if we are talking about things that are specifically related to, well, this client in particular was talking about transitioning and some other things.

14:43
while I'm open to it, I want to make sure that I will also say, I am open to it, I welcome you being here, and I might know a clinician that is more adept at working with this population. Or I would make sure that I am in direct supervision with somebody who has those experiences, right, is well versed in that community and what those needs are. So I think part of it is also recognizing

15:10
being comfortable isn't necessarily the same as being skilled at, if that makes sense. So when I kind of go back to the same thing, it's kind of how do we learn about anything? We do the work. So if that means, again, what I would say number one is be in community. Make sure that we have case consultation groups or therapist groups that actually have people of color in those groups. So people, if we're not interacting with any people of color,

15:38
right in our personal lives and our social lives. I guess I personally would question where does the comfort in working with people that are, you know, multiracial, biracial BIPOC. That's what I say. What a great place to feel safe as a therapist. If you're in like, let's say you're in a consultation group with three or four people from your community.

16:04
And there are people of different cultures, like what a great place to ask those questions and, and, you know, have, you know, you may feel uncomfortable, you may say the right thing, but I feel like that would be a good place to talk about those things and ask those questions. Absolutely. And it's funny. I think that's exactly right. That it is uncomfortable, right? It's uncomfortable to talk about these things again, that have, they're heated, right? They're, they're touchy subjects. They're sensitive subjects. It's uncomfortable. And that

16:32
if we can't have that uncomfortable conversation with other therapists, I think it is missing an opportunity that will eventually come up with clients. So it's really recognizing, yeah, doing the work means being uncomfortable, having those conversations, and seeking out people within the community. So part of it is, how are we partaking in relationships ourselves? What assumptions are we making? Do we have a really limited?

17:00
worldview and social circle, professional circle. And then what do want to do about that? Right? Because if we do have a really limited social and professional circle, I think again, questioning how can I expand that? What work do I actually want to do to be in the community? Or am I going to directly look for supervision from somebody in that community? I think it's crucial. Yeah. And I think that, uh,

17:30
You know, I've heard this, this thing so many times about sort of putting the burden on the, the person with less power in this, or, or, you know, the person who is a person of color, let's say that, let's say you're asking questions of like, how do you deal with things or how do I, how do I understand this better? Or, and that's where I think the paid supervision could, can be really helpful so that there's an acknowledgement that this is something that you're

17:59
you're getting something from this person that is valuable to you. Like there are contexts where it's helpful to ask questions and be open and say, Hey, I'd love to understand this better. And it's just probably part of more of like a peer supervision group, but there are also other times where it's like, if it feels like you're asking a lot of the other person, either emotionally or with their time or whatever, that it could be more of a situation, like be open to like,

18:28
paying for that consultation because that's a valuable thing. For sure. And it's interesting because I think the other sort of, I don't want to say danger, that might be too strong of a word, but for lack of a better word, I'll use it, is that in some of these peer consultation groups, now we're just, are we in an echo chamber? And we're kind of, oh yeah, we all think the same thing. Again, is somebody within that culture or somebody who at least has some sort of understanding or work with?

18:58
different cultures, are they in the room? I I think I get it that being a therapist, there are a lot of expenses. CE courses are expensive. All the things are expensive. But I think paid consultation with something like this is important because the consultation room that you're in, you want someone to be in charge. You want someone who knows what they're talking about. Where are you going to get advice on something that is potentially this sensitive? So yeah, I'm a huge proponent.

19:27
getting supervision, supervised case consultation so that we can be in group again with other community members. There's a common theme that I see in couples and it's fighting kind of about assumed power dynamics. And all identifying information is being changed. But there was a couple that came in and again, this is very indicative of what I see. And they'd gotten into an argument about what happened at a restaurant.

19:56
the male partner is African-American and the female partner is Asian-American. So both immigrants, both non-dominant culture, but there was a little bit of a conflict with the waitress. And the male partner feels really frustrated and feels unseen and feels like there's this power dynamic where the waitress is not treating him fairly and feels like it's happening because he's African-American. the Asian female,

20:22
she's frustrated because she's like, but there's a power dynamic here and she's a waitress, right? The person that they were in conflict with is a waitress. Now there's a power dynamic. And so let's just let it go. Well, the other person is like, so I can't have any emotion because the power dynamic of, I'm because I make more money than the waitress, right? This sort of idea. And so being able to navigate that and saying both of you guys have have beef here, both of these things make sense.

20:50
How do we want to navigate what that means in the room? What does it mean to have power? Who gets to have power in that moment and how do you want to wield it? I think that's a pretty common dynamic that is going on again in interracial and intercultural coupledom. And I think it's one that therapists, again, especially that I work with, are having a hard time addressing. Because am I picking sides? What am I doing in that situation, if that makes sense? That's a great example.

21:19
Let's say, okay, let's say that couple is in your office and that, you know, they had been at the restaurant the night before with the waitress. like, one of my first questions is like, when you say that, when you were describing that, like, what does power mean as far as deciding where the conversation goes? Yeah, it's such an interesting conversation to have because that, what does power mean gets coupled with

21:48
who gets to show it and in what way. Because how aggressive is the male going to be seen as being if he expresses his displeasure by arguing or being confrontational or what have you? How much power does the woman's embarrassment, hurt feelings, not understanding what's going on, not thinking it's that big of a deal.

22:15
How do we want to navigate that? And how do they not take that home with them? Because what happens very often is that now one partner doesn't feel seen, right? Or one partner has to say, okay, well, wait a minute, it's not safe for me to be angry or to say that this thing affects me. Or the other person feels like, well, do I just have to swallow that this is the way this person wants to react? And I don't get a say in navigating what this conflict look like. Yeah. Fairly benign situation, but pretty complex relational dynamics. Yeah.

22:45
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23:14
and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment. Plus when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. You know, I think that

23:45
This is tough. If we, if we remove the, remove the cultural aspect to it, I feel like there are things I say to couples all the time, like just because you feel like, um, yelling at someone doesn't mean that you have the right to do that. Um, in other words, but, but again, like I want to own that whatever my framework for respect looks like comes from a cultural background as well.

24:15
And, and like, is like, how, a therapist, like it, because there's a lot of different dynamics coming into play at the same time that we have to be mindful of that. have to be super compassionate and considerate about. And, but I'm wondering, like, I mean, like,

24:39
you know, I go to this place in my mind of like, what if, what if somebody, what if like spanking their kid is part of their cultural background and they name that maybe this, maybe this is a bad example. Maybe this is getting us off track. But, when you, when you're saying like, well, okay, let's stick, let's stick with your example at the restaurant. Like the, feel like there are some basic way I'd be like, what, you don't have the right to talk to a waitress that way. Like what, why do you think you should be able to do that?

25:06
I would say that to anyone, but like, am I being insensitive if I, if that was like a certain, if there was like a cultural aspect to it or something like that. Yeah. So, and I love how big it is difficult. It's like, well, wait a minute, what do I do in that situation? Right. And, and I think first, the most important thing is to really establish relational trust, right. With a couple. And I know everybody knows that with, with therapy that

25:31
you know, what really moves the needle in therapy is the therapeutic relationship, right? So really having a relationship that's built on trust and both, if we're working with couples, right? Both people feeling seen and heard and held kind of in the safe space. But especially when we're working with interracial, intercultural, or people of, you know, different backgrounds than us, we really need to hold that space and really say, what sort of relationship have I cultivated?

26:00
so that I can have that dynamic. Because honestly, again, in my personal opinion, I think it is different. And even being able to say to that client, listen, there's never a time when we want to be disrespectful to service people, right? Like it's hard. That's just not how we want to show up likely, right? And to get curious about that. But also say, in that moment, did it feel like you were being?

26:25
discriminated against. In that moment, did you feel like somebody thought, oh, well, I can act any sort of way towards that person, right? And so how do we want to handle that when that happens? And what does support look like from your partner? What does it look like for your partner to show support for you being in that situation, even if they're not supportive of you yelling at the waitress, right? We don't want to that.

26:49
So just being able to navigate that and have a safe space to talk about it because the truth is it may never be perfect, right? We can't know what's in somebody else's mind, but it's more about being heard and recognizing that person saying, I'm having this experience where I'm feeling marginalized and maybe beat up in this situation. Who's on my side? Who's going to, right? Who's going to believe that this is happening to me so that I don't have to convince them that I'm being discriminated against?

27:17
Yeah, this is good. This is good. This is helping me a lot because now I'm imagining like their experience is a hundred percent valid that that this is what I teaching couples all the time. That doesn't mean they can behave however they want in the world. But like if, if it's just that person and their partner in therapy, it's like, how do we slow that down to be vulnerable? Like how do we help their partner? Hey, hold on, set aside.

27:46
this whole waitress thing for a second. Like, let's just listen to your partner's perspective and reality and history about like, tell me more about why you felt like she was being racist to you or, or, you know, treating you in a certain way. Like, well, I must've felt terrible. I didn't even notice, you know, or your wife didn't even notice that was happening. Like, what was going on for you? You know, and like moving it to this vulnerable place where the partner's job is to listen and validate and under and be curious about their perspective.

28:15
And then, you know, and then you could flip that to where, um, the partner could share, you know, I felt nervous about the way you were going to, you were thinking about talking to that person. Um, let me tell you why that would make me uncomfortable. And we, don't have to make it about what's right or wrong, good, bad, but it's about like, what's it like to hear that you have the right to your feelings.

28:42
it would have made your partner feel really uncomfortable if you would have spoken in a certain way, but let's let's work together on this, you know? Yeah, I think that's exactly it. Because it's not and this is the other really important thing, right? With couples, maybe we see this in more newer therapists who are like trying to kind of referee it. It's really not about that. It's really are we finding the place where they can understand what what they're talking about? Right? If can we understand

29:10
or help them understand each other's points of view and remind them that they're on the same team. Because I think what was happening just in that, you know, if we're gonna keep using that example, the couple didn't even understand that they had different points of view. It was like very clear, like very, and I think sometimes you call this being truthy. Like the truth is we don't yell at service people. Okay, that's true, right? Like we don't act badly when we go places. We don't beat up on people that are, we don't beat up on people, right?

29:39
That's one aspect. And then the other thing that's true is, man, I'm not being treated well in this moment. And I'm feeling really taken advantage of and erased. Right. And that was really, really true for him. So being able to have them kind of recognize, this is the space that you guys are in and you know, what happens with the waitress maybe isn't even so important, but how do you guys see each other in that moment and support each other in that moment? So that's, that's kind of the hard work of being a couples therapist. Yeah.

30:09
Yeah, that's great. So let me ask you this is a little shifting gears a little bit, but let's say you have a couple who comes in and they appear to be from very different cultural backgrounds and they're just, they're, they're, you you meet, let's say you meet with them for the whole session, the first session and it doesn't even come up and they're just talking about, you know, arguing over the dishes and whatever stuff. Like, is there a place where it's important?

30:39
as a therapist to like, well, I guess the different ways I could ask the question, how do I make them feel safe to bring stuff up if that is important or should I be direct and ask those more direct questions about that? Or is that my own bias if I'm assuming that your culture is creating problems for you, but maybe it's not. Yes. The answer is yes. Right. Like all of it. So that's the really interesting thing is, and it's sort of, uh,

31:09
it's everybody's least favorite answer is that who knows, right? It's different for every couple. it's, if we are doing the work of examining, wait, what assumptions am I making? What expectations do I have? Whose story am I accepting as, oh yeah, that makes sense, right? If I am, it's impossible. I mean, I think most humans, we can sort of accept the narratives of

31:39
people who make sense to us, right? The experiences that make sense. When somebody says, oh man, I had this experience and we can deeply relate or we've had a similar experience, we're like, oh yeah, I get it. understand these, you I understand exactly where they're coming from. So if we recognize something like that is coming up, like, you know, somebody is in our, in our therapy office and they're saying something and we're like, oh, I feel strange. I feel like I don't understand that. Or I feel like that doesn't make sense to me. I think it,

32:09
the therapist needs to get more curious. And that's when the time is to, know, whether we want to use disclosure or just say, oh, tell me more about that. Or even I'm having a hard time understanding. I'm having a hard time putting myself in that place. Help me understand more of why this was important to you or what was going on. Right. And I, I come from a psychodynamic background. So I always ask about people's background, right? Who's impacting you, right? Who, and also with

32:36
interracial and intercultural couples, I think it's really important to ask who else is impacting your relationship? Who else has a say in what's happening in your relationship? Because the truth is, in many other cultures, extended family has a lot more say. In the US, kind of, again, these are hypergeneralities, but individualism is promoted here, but many other parts of the world are much more collective.

33:06
The truth is that families make decisions together sometimes. And so I always ask about that. Is that true for you? What does that mean? Who gets to have a say in what your relationship looks like? Right. Yeah. And I guess, and again, please tell me if, um, if there's a better way to do this, but, um, I'm thinking about how, let's say that one person has a lot more comfort with like a loud tone of voice than the other person in a relationship.

33:36
that, um, you know, that's an opportunity to, to explore like, Oh, what was it like in your family growing up as far as like, how did, how did people talk to each other? How did people, whatever. And like, you know, I could drop if they, might just start talking about their cultural background at that point, but even if they don't, could draw, could say, Oh, and where, where did you grow up? What was your, where was your family from? And just like, just kind of like being curious and staying with that. And it could stay at,

34:06
the level of family differences or it could, it's sort of like, I'm as a therapist, I'm imagining like, I'm trying to look for an opportunity to kind of like, where can I ask a different type of question if, if it feels like a normal thing to ask at this point or something like that? Yeah. And actually I love that example. It's funny, you know, I said, I come from, my mom is, is Taiwanese and the idea.

34:34
It never even occurred to me until I was well into college that people didn't yell, that people didn't yell at each other. I mean, it just, you know, I can't remember. think I maybe yelled at my roommate from college or something. And she was like, you know, taken aback and like, oh my gosh, like that really hurt my feelings that I was thinking, oh, like why I'm so confused by this. Like, this is just normal communication. Like I'm not even that mad. I'm just yelling because isn't that what we do? Right. So.

35:02
And having that discussion now, again, just because that seems normal to me, I'm not saying that I'm telling all of my couples, well, listen, everybody has to accept that. But being able to have that conversation of, wait a minute, how do you two want to negotiate this? What does that mean? Right? I mean, that's a really common, it's a really common thing where someone's like, oh, well, they raised their voice at me and then I just completely shut down because maybe that just absolutely did not happen. Maybe it was a complete sign of disrespect in somebody's household.

35:32
I mean, and sometimes it's also, OK, is this something that is going to change or how do we live with having just very, different expectations? mean, I do my best to not yell and scream when it comes to my partner. Right. And hopefully I'm more mature now. But, know, when he's around my family, he's like, I need to go take a minute, like because there's just yelling and screaming constantly. Right. There's just we're loud. Right. So.

36:01
Yeah, how do we, again, just broach that? What does it mean? And just get the couple thinking, like, we get to negotiate what is normal in our relationship, right? But within that negotiation, we have to be honest and accepting about the other person's experience, what they think is normal too. Yeah, and I, you know, I'm always trying to avoid the truthiness of the conversation. Like you said, I,

36:29
You know, I don't think there's a right, it's like if we got out a tool to measure the decibel level of the volume or something, like what's, what's the line that's correct versus not correct or, or maybe it's like, how do you measure how angry the tone feels to the other person or not, or whatever. Um, so for that reason, I do, I think it's like,

36:53
how do we move people into compassion for each other? Like there's a reason why this person communicates this way. There's a reason why it's hard for this person. And like the more we can keep people in that sort of like understanding each other, being curious, like, then, and then we can work with what's possible as far as like, well, would you be willing to, you know, tone that down a little bit? And then they can try to be a little bit more understanding, even if it does, you know, and it's like, then we have something we can work with to help them.

37:24
Yeah, it's really about helping them, I guess, understand attunement too, because I think a lot of times what happens is if one person is coming from the yelling family, we'll call it, right? I think very often what happens is this, well, I can't change that. That's just how we communicate. Right. And then if we have the conversation of, yes, that is very normal for your experience. That is kind of where you go. But do you recognize when that happens that your partner shuts down?

37:53
Are you recognizing that there's a shift in body language, in even emotional accessibility with your partner? And do you want that to continue? So how do we figure out another way to communicate? Does that mean that we take a beat? What do we do to bridge that gap? Because the truth is we do have different lived experiences. We just have different expectations of what's normal. What I think can be really harmful is when the therapist

38:23
kind of implicitly or explicitly sides with one partner. And that's what I think is really the thing to avoid because it's hard not to do it. We have to be very aware of our own biases and what we're bringing to the room not to do that. Yeah, Such a good point. And I do think like guiding

38:50
the conversation into that place of attunement is like such an important goal that, um, and again, like I always say, I'm not telling you what to do, but I can make a prediction. If you keep doing these types of things, your partner is going to keep responding the same way. I'm not here to tell you what's right, wrong, good, bad, but you know, how do, again, like,

39:20
how does each of you have compassion for the other person? It's like both, there's some reason why it makes sense on each side of the street here for each of you that this is hard and that's okay. And like, what a beautiful thing that you continue to choose to be together and work on this. Like that's amazing. Like try to, try to empower, make them feel empowered about that decision. Yeah. I think the more that we can help people,

39:50
be okay with each other's differences. Being in relationships, it's hard. After a while, we're like, oh, but there's so many differences. And the more accepting we can be of those differences, right? Like somebody having the ability to show you, these are the ways that I'm different. And having the other partner say, yeah, even if I don't understand that, I love you, let's work on it.

40:16
or I'm open to considering the way you're seeing something, even if I don't agree, that's kind of the work. And I think when we have different backgrounds, it just adds another layer because I think very often there's a sort of fighting of, well, who's going to accept this difference, right? Especially if we've had a history of, well, that difference has never been accepted or that difference is something that we've had to kind of minimize so that we could be accepted in different spaces.

40:45
How do we sort of honor that that can show up here, right? And yeah, it's really about whose story gets value. How do we help like each partner kind of understand all of our stories are valuable, right? It doesn't mean we wanna keep engaging in all the behaviors that we've learned over the years, right? But yeah, how do we accept each other's lived experience is very real.

41:11
part of who they are and how do we turn towards each other and acceptance? And I think that is the role of the couples therapist, right? Yeah, that's great. And, and, and I, I want to go back to something you said, I may have taken us away from it too quickly. The therapist recognizing their own biases as they're working with people. Cause I think that was a really important point that you made and you may not as a

41:41
I'm speaking, I'm saying you to all you therapists out there, you may not even realize that you're doing it. You may not be conscious of it, but we just have to be really careful about it. And just to give a quick example, I can imagine that I was working with this couple. Um, this was a few years ago. Uh, and again, I'm changing a lot of the details, but the, the wife came from a cultural background where

42:09
you know, they were, she was like super close to her family and her mom was like very involved in their relationship from my, from my perspective and from the husband's perspective. And, um, and I was like, no, this isn't okay. You can't have her making these decisions and blah, blah, blah, blah. And like, you know, that's things. Yeah. Those are my biases. Those that's my per se, you know, coming from whether you called American culture or European culture or whatever.

42:38
the individualism, the, should have your own couple bubble that whatever, but like, all that may be true on some level, even for her, but like, I was not being sensitive or careful in the way I was coming out and saying that. think, I think as again, we have to make it fit for their, the, the client's reality. Like we have to speak a lot. have to come to be able to speak the same language as them, but like,

43:07
How do we keep your mom very super involved in your life and that you have some boundaries at the same time or whatever that sounds like, she should decide what language we're using around that. But it's like making sure the clients are staying with you from the way they see the world and the way you're trying to talk about things like boundaries or whatever else. Yeah, it's funny. That's such a common example, right? Like a common occurrence that happens.

43:36
And I think if we can figure out what safety looks like for the couple, right? If they can feel like, wait a minute, we don't necessarily have the same expectations, but the relationship is safe for us that both of us are getting our needs met and both of us can bring some parts of ourselves, right, into the relationship. That's kind of the best thing that we can hope for. I think very often therapists, I mean, it's just human nature.

44:03
for us to be like, well, that's not right. That's not how relationships work. And, know, Gottman, just the Gottman therapy sort of theory is exactly what you said, right? That, oh no, the couple has to be kind of its own unit and everybody else is secondary. And I love that idea. And I think that works for a number of people, but there are also a huge number of people in the world where that doesn't work, right? So part of it is also just examining like,

44:33
What's the training that we've had? What's the discourse that we've had around this? Whose truth about what a real, really, you know, working relationship looks like? Whose truth are we accepting? Because now we're kind of learning that there are way more points of view, right? But yeah, that's a really common one. And it's hard sometimes, because sometimes it's like, oh man, I could not disagree more with what this couple is doing. But how do I get to the point where if they are happy and that sense of safety and security feels good for them,

45:03
I'm here for it. That's right. Yeah. They get to define success for themselves. So hard. I know. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And there's this author, Stan Tatkin, he has this idea called the couple bubble, like the, the, the relationship, the two people in their relationship are the two in the couple bubble, but it's, but it's interesting.

45:29
Maybe each diff, each couple gets to decide the rules around what the couple bubble means for them, right? That's it doesn't like, maybe if we taught, if we talk long enough in an open way, like as a therapist, like maybe the things we're trying to teach or bring to the, to the couple, like we can, we can get to some sort of common language eventually, but we have to be really patient and considerate and thoughtful about including

45:59
what they're trying to accomplish as well. Yeah. And, you know, I think it's important to just point out, you know, most of these couples theories, they're created by people of dominant culture. Like, that's right. Right. just sort of, you know, I, and again, I would just say sort of, this is sort of the arrogance of the profession, like, Oh, well I've gotten this training. So I know this is how people should behave. And so really kind of being like you, you mentioned

46:28
using our humility with that because that's just not how the world works, right? The truth is that successful relationships look very, very different very often than, you what the Gottman's might say. And not that I'm picking on them. love government theory, right? And I have trained, but yeah, it's really, it can look however the couple wants it to look, right? If there's not a harm being done and if people are happy and feeling heard and feeling like their needs are getting met, it can look very, very different.

46:57
whether somebody's mom is involved or not. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. No, that's great. Uh, yeah. And I think, well, this is a whole different conversation we don't have to get into, but like, I think there are certain therapists who have a sense, who have a controlling nature or a sense of perfectionism or whatever, who like, like we need, everything needs to be research based and everything needs to be like, and again, like,

47:27
I agree that being research-based is helpful and important and good for the world, but at the same time, I don't think everything follows such a neat framework of rules all the time. It would be great if it did. Right? Watch the therapy, how to do therapy vignettes. And it's like, well, I brought up this, they brought up that, and then they left and they've never had a fight ever again. Right? So it would be great. We're all look like that. But I mean,

47:56
The truth is that's the hard thing about being a therapist, right? In this day and age is that we have to be willing to say, wait a minute, what's really happening here? And I don't have to know all the answers, but I have to do is get really curious and ask them, what are you guys trying to do here? Right? What looks like safety to you? What feels good to you? Sustainable. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's great. That's such a great way to ask the question. Good. Well, thank you. So, you know,

48:23
I want to respect your time. know we're wrapping up here. This has been such a helpful conversation for me. Any other last thoughts? And also make sure and tell everyone about your website and where they can find you. Thank you. So yeah, my website is exploringcompassion.com. I really just want to say first, thank you for having me. This was such a great conversation. I hope it sparks more debate amongst therapists and amongst couples.

48:50
I do case consultation for therapists that are looking to be more culturally competent, culturally adept, we can say. And information for that's on my website. But yeah, I just appreciate you having this conversation. The truth is, mean, therapists, we've got so many things to hold, but this is, again, multicultural, people who identify as multicultural. It's a really growing population. So figuring out how to navigate.

49:19
you know, and learning more about ourselves in the therapy room. I just think it's a really, really important thing. So I appreciate you having this discussion with me. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And I imagine therapists who are, you know, they have a couple, a new couple come into their office. They're dealing with some of the things we're talking about. Like that would be so helpful for them to have the ability to call you, you know, and get that consultation. So, uh, and they can find you at exploring compassion.com. Yes. So great. Good.

49:48
Yeah, thank you again. This is so helpful. And hopefully we can continue the conversation sometime. Absolutely. I'd love to come back anytime. All right. Great. Sounds good. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more.

50:14
And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Burkle and this is the Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody.