306: Boundaries & Generational Trauma with Judy Hu

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Judy Hu about boundaries & generational trauma.  Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

• Episode Summary & Player
• Show Notes
• The Couples Therapist Couch Summary
• Transcript

The Couples Therapist Couch 305: Working with Narcissism in Couples Therapy with Wendy Behary

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

Sign up for Shane’s 6-week live training program, Couples Therapy Intensives: The Blueprint, before it starts on October 27, 2026 here: https://cit.shanebirkel.com/blueprint

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Join the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new 

In this episode, Shane talks with Judy Hu about boundaries & generational trauma. Judy Hu, LMHC is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor and Trauma Therapist of over 20 years, turned Boundary Coach, and Bestselling Author of The Boundary Revolution: Decolonize Your Relationships and Discover a New Path to Joy. Hear how to move your clients into compassion, why kids become people pleasers, how to hold yourself accountable as a parent, why everyone is valuable, and how to help your clients move back to the truth.

 Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• How Judy regulates the room by centering the most vulnerable nervous system first
• Why the moral injury of colonialism lives in the body
• What decentering actually means
• Why 10 years of couples counseling and a frustration with traditional therapy led Judy to boundary coaching
• Landing the charge in the system, not on the person 

To learn more about Judy Hu and check out her book, visit:

JudyHuBoundaryCoach.com

Show Notes

• 305: Working with Narcissism in Couples Therapy with Wendy Behary
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [0:23] Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch 
• [0:56] Today is the first day of the Couples Therapy Intensives Blueprint!
• [1:26] Welcome to the show Judy Hu
• [2:24] Why 10 years of couples counseling and a frustration with traditional therapy led Judy to boundary coaching
• [3:20] Trauma decontextualized in a person looks like personality 
• [4:18] Landing the charge in the system, not on the person 
• [5:47] How this lens made forgiveness possible with her own mother
• [8:43] The same-size circle framework 
• [9:41] How colonization, patriarchy, and other systems teach us to feel like different-sized circles
• [11:11] The confusion of thinking that becoming equal means becoming the biggest circle
• [12:39] When the small-sized circle finally gets angry and becomes the perpetrator 
• [14:29] The difference between codependence, anti-dependence, and interdependence
• [15:50] What decentering actually means
• [17:39] A real couple in the room experiencing racialized trauma, Irish Catholic working class history, and the dishes
• [21:07] How Judy regulates the room by centering the most vulnerable nervous system first
• [23:01] Bringing the ancestors into the room 
• [24:31] We’re experiencing the present moment without realizing where it all comes from
• [25:30] Why the moral injury of colonialism lives in the body
• [29:54] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [31:50] Affirmative action and diversity aren’t concessions — they add something that can’t be measured in money
• [37:10] Everyone is inherently valuable — not because of what they can contribute, but just because
• [38:36] The Asian American experience of proximity to whiteness and what it did to the nervous system
• [39:33] Using the charge as a diagnostic tool — zero to ten, from present moment to genocidal level
• [41:02] How to drain collective charge from the body so you can actually talk about the dishes
• [44:08] How to work with the patriarchal, problem-solving, over-explaining energy in the room
• [46:41] Can you look at him and see that he’s not your dad? Can you look at her and see that she’s not your mom?
• [47:59] Genograms, family of origin, and always asking where people are from
• [49:18] Find The Boundary Revolution wherever audiobooks are sold
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
the popular group, quote unquote, are often, not always, the most resourced.

00:11
to the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Burkle.

00:27
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Couples Therapist's Couch. This is Shane Burkle, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

00:56
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Before we get started, I just wanted to mention that today is actually the first day of my new six week training, Couples Therapy Intensives, the blueprint. I'm really excited to be working with a small group of therapists over the next six weeks, helping them with both the clinical side and the practical side of starting to offer intensives in their practice.

01:26
this is something you're interested in learning more about, can visit cit.shaneburkle.com backslash blueprint. I'll put the link in the show notes to find out more about the training and future opportunities to participate. All right, let's get into the conversation. Everyone welcome back to the couple's therapist couch. This is Shane Burkle and today I'm speaking with Judy who trauma therapist of 20 years turned boundary coach and author of the book, the boundary revolution.

01:55
Decolonize your relationship and discover a new path to joy. Hey, Judy, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me, Shane. Yeah, I'm so excited to talk to you about this. And one of the reasons we're talking now is because you're recording the audio version of your book, which is really exciting. It is very exciting. Yes, thank you. Yeah. Why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about yourself? So I am a licensed mental health counselor licensed in Massachusetts and I turned

02:24
my practice into boundary coaching because I realized that the way that I was trained as a therapist was prolonging a lot of the issues that were happening in my clients, including I had been in couples counseling for 10 years. So trying to find the way that was going to be helpful to my clients was key. And boundary coaching was a way of doing that with learning at P.M. Melody's work through Jan Berkstrom who

02:53
we had met through this training and that's why I'm so excited to reconnect with you. And what I've done too is I've expanded it to find the context of some of the arguments. So one of the authors that I follow and is my North Star is Resma Menikam in his book, My Grandmother's Hands. And so the line in that book that I always reference is, trauma decontextualized in a person looks like personality.

03:20
Um, so for me, I felt very sensitive to criticism as a child. So I perceived a lot of feedback from people, including my caregivers as criticism. Some of it was right because of their own history and it, it impacted the way I was. So I became very anxious. So that was my personality, like perfectionist, people pleaser, you know, all these things that are boundary crossings, trauma, decontextualized in a family looks like family traits.

03:49
So because the way that my parents were super stressed because of their immigrant background and all the things that happened, the culture in my family was highly critical and very, very driven. So that was the context that I was growing up in. And then trauma decontextualized in a group of people looks like culture. So this is the piece that I'm adding in with the couple therapy work that I do now is I help people see that some of their reactions

04:18
is not just from the relationship, it's not just from their childhood, but a lot of it is informed through the systems in which they were raised. And when I say this, it's not to say, well, that's it. Don't take any responsibility and just blame the system. The reason why I bring that in is because the charge, the intensity informs where to look in your ancestry, in your history. And if it is systemic, like capitalism, patriarchy,

04:47
supremacy thinking, then you land the intensity in that system, you direct it there, that charge, that rage, that frustration, that depression there. And then once it's out of your nervous system and you're more regulated, you can have a conversation. So the moment I changed the way that I worked in that sense of no blame or shame on the person, right, everyone is in same size, it's just made working a lot easier. I feel like less like a referee and more like a

05:17
What size circle are you? Yeah. Well, it seems like a really helpful way of moving into compassion for yourself or for others. 100%. Yes. So when I was writing the book actually helped me kind of crystallize what I was intuitively picking up. So this boundary work not only helps move into compassion, there's so much forgiveness. I was the typical, blamed my mom for everything, right?

05:47
But with this lens, I'm able to understand the context in which she was raised, inform the way she reacted, which doesn't make the reactivity okay, it just didn't make it about me. And if it wasn't about me, then she wasn't picking up on a personality defect or that I wasn't enough or that I was too much, it was her reactivity. So I was able to kind of release that from my sense of.

06:15
need to control or need to fix or need to prove. And that has just created so much more space. That's amazing. Right. Because when we're little kids growing up with our parents, we're taking all that information on as truth. A hundred percent. And they're doing their best with whatever they, you know, whatever skills they have. oftentimes, you know, that's where these things develop, where people become, you know, a people pleaser or feel like I need to

06:45
take responsibility for other people's emotions or things like that. And they think it's part of their, or maybe they think like, what's wrong with me or something. And they think it's part of their personality or part of their character. And what's really happening is that it's just their parents, whatever their parents are coming from. I mean, I'm thinking about right now, right? This is one of the ways of building empathy for your parents is to be a parent.

07:15
Right. sure. And so as I'm raising my teens and they're rolling their eyes at me and I'm trying to regulate myself and not feel like rejected, is I look at the context in which we're raising these kids right now. The AI complete shift. So many people out of work getting laid off. Huge inflation. The cost of living is just getting enormous. The level of stress that everyone is carrying.

07:44
while the climate change is happening. All of these contexts, right? The wars and all these things. It's in our environment all the time. So when I'm reactive, I can catch myself in apology and say, I'm sorry, I was doing my budget this month and it just wasn't landing. Everything's fine, but when I yelled at you, sweetheart, it had nothing to do with you. It was the stress that I'm working with, right? So it's just like, oh.

08:13
They were an immigrant family. They were fleeing things. They had a history of abuse. So I have so much more compassion for my parents on what they were actually holding. Yeah. think that's good. Thank you for giving that example. I think that's so good because as parents, we're making mistakes all the time. And I think there's something really important about having compassion for ourselves, but also being accountable at the same time. 100%. Yes. Yes. Yes.

08:43
So I have these circles that I work with. Can I show you my part of the framework that's in the book, Psychological Boundaries Framework? So the foundation is everyone is inherently worthy. I'm holding up these circles. It's like the same size circle, no matter if you make a mistake or not. But we live in a society that if you make a mistake, like you yell at your kids, you're a bad parent. You're just going down into small size circle. But if your kid gets into an Ivy League school, you're a great parent.

09:13
You get into this big size circle, right? And so it's that conditional worthiness or lovability that is actually, I think, at the heart of the dynamic that I'm trying to shift with the people that I work with. So it's this like down size, small size, right? It's the same dynamic of domination, right? So in my book is colonization. So colonizer, small size circle is indigenous or.

09:41
the people whose land was colonized, right? So the victim. Perpetrators, big-sized circle. Victims, a small-sized circle, right? So another example of a systemic thing here is, forgive me when I say this, cis white men, big-sized circle. Okay, and then women, small-sized circle, right? It's not good or bad, it's just what we were learning.

10:11
through osmosis, through how the structures are, right? And so the moment a small-sized circle woman, right, wants to work, open up their bank account, which they weren't allowed to do until 1974 on their own, right, they had to have the co-signature of a husband to do that. Once they come into their right size, their same size as everybody else, they feel like,

10:41
because they're used to taking up very little space, the big size circle. I'm a bitch, I'm bossy, I'm so mean, right? Because their nervous system is not used to being unconditionally worthy. Because women and children were viewed historically, systemically, as property, as objects, right? And so this frame just kind of shifts everything of

11:10
There are no mistakes. It's just a decision and outcome. You clean up the mess that you made and you grow from it. You create a, like get the skills, you know, to regulate or to be parent or all these things, but it never impacts your worthiness. Yeah. And I think there's a confusion for people of in order to feel bigger, I have to become the biggest circle. Exactly. Which, which.

11:39
Is like winning is like making it to the Ivy League school a hundred percent or being the perpetrator and so, you know being the the powerful one Yeah, the billionaires. Yes. Yeah, right, right And so it's the same thing and even the big circle people believe well, are you if you're asking me to become Equal then you're at you're you're asking me to become small Exactly. Exactly. So that was it right? So so people who are used to having their needs centered

12:09
Right? When they go down and right size, the same size, they're going to feel like they're being victimized because they're having to get used to taking up less space or sharing more resource or being more quiet. Right? So they're going to feel like they're small sized circle. But my job, if they're coaching, I'm helping them regulate, no, no, this, I understand you feel that way. And that brings up your own childhood.

12:39
which pushes you to try to be a big size circle, right? And let's work that, that's your internal work too, right? So this dynamic is everywhere, right? Neurotypical, ADHD, I have ADHD, right? It's like wealthy, poor, right? My husband, me, right? So the thing is, what happens is when someone's small size, and you see this in your work.

13:08
Everyone does. At some point, you get really pissed. Yeah. And then you rate what kind of man, why can't you just do the dishes and blah, blah, blah. And then because we're talking to the other person that way, we actually become the perpetrator. Right. So back and forth we go, right? Who's right or who's wrong? Like Taryn Turello always says, you can be right or wrong or you can be married. Yes.

13:34
And so same size circle is how do you be in relationship? So that when I use the images, it takes the charge out. Cause I'll just talk to my clients and just be like, what size circle are you? What boundary are you? Are you porous right now? Are you going into someone else's their business right now and how they're supposed to do the dishes? Are you being rigid right now? Right? Not considering what their needs are. Right? So it's just like this imagery of, okay,

14:03
Bring down your circle size or expand your circle size. And then how do you be in right relationship, which is in interdependence, like the Venn diagram, like considering the other person's needs. You don't overtake it. You don't become codependent, right? Which is my values contingent on your happiness. That's codependence. And you don't become anti-dependent.

14:29
of like, don't care. And my, my sense is the way that, things are in society right now and have been historically codependence and anti-dependence are the relationships that were taught are okay in society. Yes. Yeah. And I wanted to have you take a step back for people who don't know some of this terminology. Yes.

14:56
you know, things like decolonize, when you say, you know, certain people's reality is centered in society, or even the thing, what you were just talking about as far as the idea that, you know, of co-dependence. yeah, just sort of...

15:21
making sure people understand as we continue to talk about these concepts that there's a little, you know, a little bit more understanding of what that is. Wonderful. Thank you so much. I can talk about this like all day and I get so excited and I forget like some people don't live in this space like I do. So thank you for that. So let's start with decentering. Okay. So I I'm holding up the circle. It's like, so centering someone's needs. Basically, if I go into a building, right. And there's no

15:50
ramps to go up the stairs. There's no elevator. So I'm centering that these people who are coming into this building that's multi-level are able-bodied. They can use their legs, right? So centering the needs of the most vulnerable is making it wheelchair accessible. So I'm going to go, oh, but other people who might have different needs need to access this facility too, right? So let's make sure that's wheelchair accessible.

16:19
But the bathrooms, the width and the stalls are able to have a wheelchair. that's centering someone else's needs, right? The thing about decentering is it feels like they're being excluded, but it's actually what we're doing is we're widening the entire circle of all these people that live on this planet that we're sharing this land with because everyone has a right to exist on this planet.

16:48
What are the needs, right? So one of the things I always remind myself when I'm doing the work, if I can center the needs of the most vulnerable, I'll cover everybody. Right? So the most vulnerable, trans black women.

17:10
that might have a disability. So what I'm doing is I'm looking at the systems that are in play. I'm not blaming, I'm just saying this is the truth, okay? Who's at most risk? What are the considerations that I need to give? And then how do I work that in? So when I'm working with couples of different cultures, I'm factoring in power dynamics all of the time on the back end. Because it's present in their relationship, whether they acknowledge it or not. Does that make sense?

17:39
So that's decentering. Yes. And stop me if I'm still missing pieces. Yeah, I'd love, well, I thought of a relational example, as you just said that. Perfect. Maybe, I don't know if this is a good one. You can give a better one if you can think of one. But I was thinking like, one of the things that we center in American society is the idea of like being logical or rational, for example. Yes. You know, so

18:08
In relationships, this can play out where if one person is taking a more logical rational approach to the conversation and they're not very understanding, the point of the communication is something else. Yes.

18:25
So.

18:28
I'll do this in another example, but I'll put it in because this part is hard for me to explain because I'm much more emotional focused the way that I communicate. And so I noticed when you brought the logical piece, my brain started to shut down. like, oh no, how am I going to talk about this? Because I went into this adaptive place of like, I'm going to sound stupid, right? Which is my own history. So let me just give an actual couple that.

18:56
and I've anonymized everything. So if I worked with an African American man and his wife who is Irish Catholic, okay, working class, the man is from generational wealth, okay, Ivy League schools. So I'm working with them, and I'm giving this context because it matters. So I'm working with them and the woman's in this logical place of like, no, you need to do the dishes. Why can't you just do the dishes and help with the kids and she's...

19:25
crying, right? Like just, she's just saying this is the logical thing. But the crying, right, activates his nervous system response of shutting down.

19:38
Because in my room right now is I have a white woman who's crying and activates a generational trauma of this black man in the room that historically and presently, if there's a white woman and a black man, black men sometimes don't survive that dynamic. that resonate so far? Yeah, historically, when a white woman was crying, a black man may not survive that situation.

20:07
Yes, he would be accused of harming. exactly. So thank you for hanging in there with this example. So what I have to do is stop this conversation and slow it down and go, know, Sally, thank you so much. makes sense that you're feeling this way. I'm going to, and this is like, so the patriarchy means I would center the needs of the woman, right? Because patriarchy means the man's needs are centered.

20:38
Right? Stay at home parent, the women do all the emotional labor, all of these things. So I'm shifting the, in this moment, in this case, because of the power dynamic, I'm shifting from her first so I can regulate him with the racialized trauma. So I'm centering the needs of the person of color in the room so he can be more grounded and feel safe and say, hey, Jim.

21:07
Fill your feet on the ground. I completely understand that this is frustrating for you, but the moment you shut down, she feels abandoned. The story I make up is her tears activates a terror response in you that historically maybe you were taught. If there's a woman who's crying in the room, you need to put your gaze down. You need to shrink as far down as you can and be as invisible.

21:35
And remember, you are in a space that your needs matter and you're safe here. This is not about who's right or wrong. Right? And so what I'm doing is I'm talking them through what might be going on nervous system wise for survival that has nothing to do with this conversation in the room. It's all generational programming. That's amazing. And there's different, there's overlap.

22:02
A hundred percent the injured. Yes, exactly. Aspects of her that are centered in society, aspects of him that are centered in society. And then I just go back and forth, right? So as he comes back into his body and feeling regulated and is like, okay, so this clinician sees that it is not safe for me when a white woman is crying. And I can acknowledge that he feels seen and he relaxes a little bit. And then I can move to her and center her needs of, hey,

22:31
Sally, thank you for waiting. That must have been really, really hard because in your line of work with all of these executives who are all men, your needs aren't seen at all. And you would want to be in a relationship with a partner who sees your needs, right? But I want you to understand the racial dynamics here are at play. And now, Jim, I'm going to tell you, when you shut down, you activate her nervous system response.

23:01
of having come from immigrant family, Irish, worked multiple jobs because they were working class and used alcohol to self soothe. Is this landing, Sally? Yeah, okay. So then it's like, what I'm doing is I'm bringing the context of the ancestors that are in the room with these people that I'm working with so I can disentangle and say, okay, he is not your dad, right?

23:31
And so just acknowledging your parents weren't able to be present because historically, so then I bring in the context if it's relevant, of the potato famine in Ireland. Your great grandparents had to come over, your grandparents had to come over because of the potato famine. And they were starving and so they had to work. So it's just like bringing in the context of like, oh, this is what it is, right? It's not about the dishes. It has all of this overlay and this intensity. Once we're able to land the intensity,

24:01
This is a system that you're frustrated with, not your husband. All these men at work don't listen to you because of this system of patriarchy. Land the frustration there, not on the body of your beloved. Now let's talk about the dishes. Does that make sense? I'm thinking about how we're often not even conscious of the history. When you were talking about the man who is black, consciously,

24:31
He knows that this is a safe situation. He knows his partner cares about him and loves him and is safe and it's okay. And he may like unconsciously there like his, it's his nervous system. Exactly. It's kind of getting small and you know, making his gaze go to the ground and like he can't find words or whatever it is that experience that may be coming from hundreds of years of socialization.

25:01
Exactly. we're experiencing the present moment, we don't even realize where it's all coming from. So you said something earlier to go along with that, which is the charge informs where to look. And so I'm wondering, that the way... So if I'm not fully conscious of where this is coming from, what's going on, does it start with kind of noticing where that charge is coming from? Yes. So I'm going to add in this piece because you had said

25:30
know, decolonize, just define that. And so this is gonna be connected. Okay, so I kind of meander a little bit. So see if this makes sense, Jane. So colonization is the act of a group of people coming in, taking over a land by setting up their colonies. Okay, so the British, the French, the Spanish did that on this land.

25:57
but the indigenous would have called Turtle Island in the US, right? So it was established, genocide happened on this land, people took over the land and colonized and taught the people that were here originally how to be more European, quote unquote, how to be more educated and less savage, okay? So that's the act of colonization. It's a taking over land and taking over the culture and the people in the.

26:25
replacing it so they can set up colonies. Does that make sense? So what happens is that is trauma that lands in the body. So the history as I understand it, and I understand that some people won't agree with this and that's okay, is when people got on the ships from England or wherever, they were told this is a place of opportunity.

26:55
It's gonna be amazing. Go. And I can, I know this, the people that were on the ships, most of them were poor and desperate for better opportunity. Because what I know is no one really wants to leave their homeland if they don't have to. Do you know what I mean? And so these people were desperate, got on the ships, came here, and the conditions were not what they were promised.

27:23
and a lot of them died and some of them encountered these colonies that were here originally and they were faced with a choice.

27:36
Do we follow the orders of the people on the ship that told us what to do? Steal from this group, right? Or do we die? So the act of actually taking over the land and the people, right? What happens with a lot of our military? They're told that they're trying to fight communism and it was maybe something different, right? Maybe they were trying to fight terrorism, but maybe it's something different, like oil, right?

28:05
When the body does something on behalf of a lie, there is moral injury that happens in the body. So moral injury is I am doing something that I don't agree with, but I'm doing it because I was told to or because I need to survive, right? So a lot of these settlers did these things and it internalized that guilt.

28:32
Is this making sense so far? I'm trying to like piece it all together because it's a very complicated thing that we're trying to disentangle right now. Yes, absolutely. So this guilt, right, makes us sometimes feel like small size circle. And as we know, especially for men, many of whom do this, right, in the military.

28:59
they compensate that vulnerability of the guilt of doing something that they don't agree with with big size circle. But this is, we are establishing a better way of living and Catholic religion is the way to go and Christianity and this way of like European. So it's disconnecting from the body and the land around of.

29:26
balance and going, this is the right way. This is dominant theory. Building a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers.

29:54
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30:23
There's part of them that knows the truth. Exactly. Even if they're building up a narrative to try to avoid feeling the shame and the guilt. Exactly. justify what's happening. Yes. So they don't feel so terrible. They build up this narrative to make it sound like this is just the right thing to do or what we have to do or whatever it is.

30:51
And in case anyone's feeling flooded, like this is too much information. What I want to just say is when I bring in the history, it's not to say who's right or wrong. Same thing as I do with the couples in my space. It's not who's right or wrong. This is just the history. When we can see the history without judgment, we acknowledge the truth. We can actually heal it and integrate it. whenever people like say, we'll just get over it.

31:20
We can't get over it because there are people who are not being acknowledged here in this. And we don't have to do everything, right? But we do have to say, this happened. How do we make it right with what we have right now? Does that make sense? So it's bringing in a lot of empathy. So now I've lost what we were going. Can you help me Shane? Yeah. One of the things I think about in the present,

31:50
is I think, you know,

31:55
When you think about getting into college or something like that, there are these attempts to look at the systems that are in place to make sure that they're fair and to make sure that they're equal. And I think a lot of times that's perceived as, it could be perceived, like if the white culture is the dominant culture, it could be perceived as, well, you're trying to make it less opportunity for

32:24
people who are white or something like that. And I think the goal is like, well, let's say, let's look at these standardized tests and realize that this came from Europe. All the questions on this test come from European culture and it gives an advantage to people whose reality is being centered in this society. And it's really an attempt to make it more fair to make it, you know, people feel like, there's nothing wrong with you if

32:53
you've never heard of these types of questions before. Maybe you just come from a different culture or something. Yeah, exactly. This is a great example I'm going to riff off of a little bit if I can. So zooming out for a second for the listeners, this is not a critique or a like in case you're feeling defensive or reactive or attacked, this is a good breadcrumb for you. Right. So

33:21
Everything that I bring up when I work with people, it's like just see if it resonates if it doesn't let it go Okay, there might be bits and pieces here So as I'm raising my kids, I'm understanding the popular group quote-unquote are Often not always the most resourced

33:45
When I say resourced, I mean wealthy.

33:50
Lululemon, had a lot of tutoring, had a lot of access to extracurricular activities, which requires a lot of driving back and forth, right? Not good or bad, what I'm saying is they are so confident in their body because their needs and wants were provided for all the time, okay? And so what I understand now is I felt so awkward all the time because I grew up in a

34:17
working class family. was working since I was eight in our family restaurant in Colorado where I was born and raised. And I was one of two Asian people, right? So it was like, I didn't see myself. all of these, okay, so this understanding, oftentimes the most comfortable in the space are the most resourced because they haven't had to fight for things or work, you know, extend too much effort for certain things, not good or bad, just.

34:47
Possibly true So I worked so hard my dad died when I was 15 I worked really hard and I got a scholarship to college I could go to any school in Colorado It was like one the most amazing opportunity and I did not feel like I deserved it It was the time of affirmative action and I was told time and time again by my peers That I didn't deserve it. I Didn't have a musical instrument talent

35:15
I didn't have any sports, I never could work, do sports, I was always working multiple jobs when I was a kid, you know. I wasn't well-read. And so in some ways, I felt they were right. I didn't deserve to be there. I couldn't talk about Mark Twain like they could, and I couldn't do multiple instruments, right? So I felt defective. But the reason is, when we think that intelligence or worthiness is one way,

35:44
We miss out on all these other opportunities of what brings value and diversity, right? We miss out on all the other ways that people can contribute. What I realized at the end of the program, maybe like 10 years out after, I brought so much to that college and that program, because it was a leadership program, also trying to diversify by bringing in.

36:11
I brought in so much because I brought in an experience that some of those people have never thought of. Right. Right. And so I want to just pose that too of affirmative action or diversity inclusion. It's not just about making the level flatter so people can have access like to get equity. It's about understanding there is value in all of these different perspectives. It's not a concession.

36:41
It actually adds so much wealth. That's not about monetary. It's about heart. It's about art. It's, you know, does, does that, what I'm saying makes sense? Yeah. And we've sort of been alluding to it, but I'll just say it. I just want to say it really clearly. You know, I think a lot of times there's a confusion that your value is connected to your ability to play an instrument or you being good at sports or you being able to talk about Mark Twain.

37:11
or your intelligence. And I think what you're saying and what I agree with you about is everyone is inherently valuable and diverse. There's so many different ways that people can bring light to the world. I think it has to start from that place that everyone is equally valuable and you know, I was gonna say able to contribute, but even that feels like

37:40
Conditional. Conditional. yeah. yeah, it's taught me. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for just naming that. Because there's a part of the like, I still feel like I have to prove myself, right? And that, again, what you were saying is it's in the nervous system, right? Generationally. So, Chinese American history, this is not my particular history, but Chinese American history in the US is they brought in Chinese laborers to build the railroads.

38:10
promise them gold and wealth and citizenship, like they promise everyone citizenship. And then they built the railroads and then they were not allowed to bring their families. They were not allowed to get married. The hidden agenda was that they would die off. Right? So if you think about that conditioning, head down, don't make any trouble, just do what the establishment says.

38:36
the Asian American experience of proximity to whiteness, like the power there, was just like trained in, right, the nervous system. So my people pleasing is also informed by my ancestral lineage of don't make waves. But when I'm in my relationship, I'm going to be really missed out because I've been playing small outside for so long, you know? Yes, absolutely. Can you speak a little bit about

39:04
bringing it to the level of relationship, the way these things play out with our partner, we have a partner that we're in relationship with. Because I feel like there's all kinds of ways where, again, like the goal, I feel like if we, it's helpful to oversimplify it maybe, the goal is to move back to the truth. Exactly. we're equally valuable. And when we start making up these stories in our mind about our partner,

39:33
you know, we're being victimized or we have the right to get upset or what, all these different things that it's taking us away from the truth of what's really happening. Yes. So thank you. I get so distracted by all these things and it's good because it's like the goal of the work is to stay present and future focused unless there's historical stuff that's impacting the present moment. So back to the question of the charge, right? So if there is rage or intensity in the room,

40:03
What I'll do is I'll go somatically, where do you feel it? I feel it in my throat. Okay, what's the emotion there? Rage. What's the level of intensity, zero to 10? Eight, okay. So I use this scale because it helps me land the charge. Two, three, present moment, relationship. Four, five, six, family of origin, okay. Seven, eight, more collective.

40:33
910 is genocidal level. So it's level eight. I'm like, okay, so then I think like what system? Patriarchy. just like, okay, you're gonna just squeeze this out and release it and say, this is not fair, right? And then just let it drain from your nervous system and we land that charge of patriarchy. It's not about this person in your, it's not about your husband, this level of charge, the rage that you feel. Because if you feel the rage, it triggers him.

41:02
Drain that rage to patriarchy, not on his body. And then let's have the conversation. So when you're able to regulate and clear out from the nervous system this historical charge, right, from collective trauma, then we can have the conversation of when you don't follow through on the dishes that you said you would do, the story I make up is that you don't care about my needs. And that story makes me feel really.

41:32
disappointed, angry and sad.

41:37
Can you tell me what happened?

41:42
Right? She's not unconsciously bringing in all the times that her colleagues ignore her asks or all the times that her parents didn't ask her how she was doing. She's able to stay in the present moment because she was able to release it. Does that make sense? So then when you're able to stay in the moment, you can have the conversation. Why I bring in the context of the collective stuff is so I can land it and I can go.

42:10
The intensity is this big because you're connected to a group of women who have had no voice on what their needs are and no right, quote unquote, to ask for them. That's why you have this tightness in your throat. And that's why it's a level eight. Even though what we're talking about is dishes, it's not about the dishes. It's about all the invisible.

42:39
and forced labor that women have had to do to survive for generations. And this is not about your husband, but this piece about the dishes is. Yeah, so it seems like getting specific like that would be really important along the way. 100%. Well, that's the majority of the work. So what I'll do is the historical stuff is where we kind of have that, but we try to stay in the present moment.

43:08
forward-focused, but if we keep having the same argument, we do have to go historical. Does that make sense? Because if the charge keeps happening, then we haven't gotten to the actual source yet, which is, I think, generational. And it's super helpful the way you kind of named that. I'm imagining that you named that early on, so people begin to have that

43:38
advanced level of awareness of where all these things could be coming from. And again, it's not to blame or shame it and say, oh, this is historical. It's like, no, this is why it's charged so much. You need to work it out of your system and then come to this conversation or at least know that it's not the 90 % of this charge is not about you. So don't take it personal. Just listen for the thing. Yeah. I'd love I'd love to hear you how you would talk really quickly, you know,

44:08
hear how you would talk to someone who's sort of doing the patriarchal defensiveness, minimizing, problem solving, explaining kind of energy. Like how I would address it in the room? Yeah, I think one of the challenges is to not make people feel blamed or judged. A lot of times,

44:35
those people have good intentions, they're trying to explain it so the other person feels better, but it just ends up feeling like, you know, minimizing or defensive. So I'll bring out my circles. Like after a while, if they're talking a lot and just be like, just want to name, and I don't want you to take this personally, but I'm just saying they're taking up a lot of space right now. So I'm going to bring you down to same size.

45:03
and you might feel muted and that's okay. So let's just slow this down. Is that okay? And then let's just pause and I'm just gonna check in with your partner. What's that like when I made him stop talking about exactly why it was okay that he didn't do the dishes? Let me just create some more space. I'm gonna, you didn't take up much space, you were small size, so I'm gonna bring you back up. Okay, so how's that? So I'll just like slowly somatically go, okay.

45:31
Now I'll go back to him and go, what's it like to just have to sit and listen for a little bit? Were you kind of collecting a litany of responses? Yeah. Where did you have to create the reasoning for why you did something? The story I make up is that it started a long, long time ago.

45:59
Story makeup, see how this lands. When your mom would yell at you for not doing something, you had to have a laundry list of why you didn't do it.

46:12
and it had to do with your neurodiversity that wasn't diagnosed yet. How's that land? Yeah, that makes sense that you would want to justify why this is the right way to go. It makes total sense. And then I'll pause and go, does this resonate for you? Right? Your dad would lecture you around why you couldn't do your thing and you'd have to be quiet, right? Can you look at him and see that he's not your dad?

46:41
Okay, can you look at her and see that she's not your mom?

46:48
because I understand this feels like the right way to go.

46:54
but how's it working out for you?

46:59
Do you feel closer when you're arguing like this? Right, so it's just kind of talking them through it, validating both of their experiences as right. But the way that they adapted in their family or how they learned it in their body is just not working for them anymore. Yeah. Yeah, I love the last sentence or two that you said. It's like moving into empowerment for them. It's like...

47:29
Now that you know this is what's happening, is it working to serve what you really want in the situation? Like you have the ability to make a choice, perhaps, on how to do this differently if you can see it. Exactly. Yeah. Thanks for that opportunity. Yeah, no, that was great. That was great. I'm so excited. I really want to read your book now because I often bring in the family of origin stuff.

47:59
but this adds a whole other level of helpful, was gonna say complexity, I guess, in super helpful way to kind of inform what's going on in the situation. Yeah, no, so I do genograms when I start off with everybody, so it's a family of origin, three generations out, and then I'll always ask where people are from. Yeah, that's great.

48:25
Regardless of if you bring it into your sessions or not, knowing the history, everyone needs to know their roots if they can, right? Some people can't because they're adopted or they don't have information about their birth history. But the more information you have, it helps you understand why your body responds in certain ways if you can contextualize it. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, and I imagine sometimes

48:50
you never, there's no connections that are made and that's fine. Or sometimes the connections, okay, this is about your parents, whatever. Sometimes it just gives you a lot of different ways to go about it. It doesn't always have to be the same for each person. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. And can you say the title of your book again so people can find it? Yeah, sure. The Boundary Revolution, Decolonize Your Relationships and Discover a New Path to Joy.

49:18
And people can find it on like Audible or places like that. Yeah, everywhere. Wherever you can get audiobooks. Great. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Thanks so much, Yeah. Thank you, Judy. Yeah. This has been so helpful. I really appreciate it. Any other thoughts before we end? No. I just think be kind out there. Everyone's going through a lot. Yeah. That's great. I love that.

49:42
I love telling people there's some reason why it makes sense that we're struggling in the particular way that we are. We may not have figured it out, but there's some reason why it makes sense. keep looking. Yeah. Just don't take it personal. That's the key. It's not about you. Something else is going on. That's great. Yeah. Good. Well, thank you again. Hopefully we can catch up again at some point in the future. Yes. Thanks, Jane. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma.

50:08
They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Burkle and this is the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye everybody.