305: Working with Narcissism in Couples Therapy with Wendy Behary

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Wendy Behary about working with narcissism in couples therapy. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 305: Working with Narcissism in Couples Therapy with Wendy Behary

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

Sign up for Shane’s free live training “What Do You Actually Do in a Couples Intensive? The 4 Cs in Action” on October 16, 2026 at Noon ET here: https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_lCoPXtPfTxaP_s2ATDr98Q 

Sign up for Shane’s 6-week live training program, Couples Therapy Intensives: The Blueprint, before it starts on October 27, 2026 here: https://cit.shanebirkel.com/blueprint

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Join the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new 

In this episode, Shane talks with Wendy Behary about working with narcissism in couples therapy. Wendy is the Bestselling Author of Disarming the Narcissist and the Founder and Director of The Cognitive Therapy Center of New Jersey and The Schema Therapy Institutes of NJ-NYC and DC. Hear how the perception of narcissism has changed over the past 30 years, what narcissism looks like in a relationship, how to think about leverage when it comes to couples therapy, how to empower the partner of a narcissist, and why schema therapy is a good fit for these types of relationships.

 Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• How do we know if it’s truly narcissism or just selfishness?
• Why the partner at home starts to think “must be me”
• Thirty years working primarily with narcissistic clients 
• Why do partners stay?
• How to bring it up in session without triggering a shame spiral 

To learn more about Wendy Behary and check out her book, visit:

DisarmingTheNarcissist.com

You can also listen to Wendy Behary on Episode 82 & Episode 210 of The Couples Therapist Couch

Show Notes

• 305: Working with Narcissism in Couples Therapy with Wendy Behary
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [0:23] Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch 
• [0:56] Last week to register for the Couples Therapy Intensives Blueprint — six-week live training starting next Tuesday
• [1:53] Welcome to the show Wendy Behary! 
• [2:50] Thirty years working primarily with narcissistic clients 
• [3:47] How social media has distorted the conversation around narcissism
• [4:45] Narcissism happens along a spectrum from mildly annoying to aggressive and abusive
• [6:09] Why therapists often miss it or become overwhelmed by it in session
• [7:06] How do we know if it’s truly narcissism or just selfishness?
• [9:49] why learning about narcissism is still liberating for partners
• [11:11] Narcissists carry a deep core of shame 
• [12:40] Why the partner at home starts to think “must be me”
• [14:01] How to bring it up in session without triggering a shame spiral
• [15:26] Moving quickly from the label to the origin story
• [16:47] Compassion for the vulnerable child vs. empathy for the pattern 
• [18:30] What to expect when you try to go into their childhood history
• [19:29] Empowering the partner to find a sturdier voice 
• [21:21] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [22:19] Why is leverage essential to getting a narcissistic client into the room?
• [24:14] What actually motivates them to come to counseling 
• [25:40] Getting them off the hamster wheel 
• [26:38] Coaching the partner through calm, resolute boundaries vs. ultimatums
• [28:27] Why do partners stay?
• [30:23] What to say instead of a threat 
• [31:52] What is schema therapy and why is it a strong fit for narcissism?
• [33:47] The schemas that grow out of narcissistic development 
• [34:42] You can’t change the past, but you can change the fact that you believed it and are still responding to it
• [36:08] What meaning are you making up? 
• [38:05] Connecting narcissistic clients to their inherent worthiness
• [39:27] The energy of proving yourself every day vs. healthy ambition
• [40:24] Learn about narcissism from reputable sources, and look at your own schemas too
• [40:52] Find Wendy at DisarmingTheNarcissist.com and check out Craig Malkin as another trusted voice on the topic
• [42:12] Couples Therapy Intensives Blueprint training starts October 27th!
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
I'd really like this to work. I really would like to have a relationship where we could feel close to each other.

00:11
to the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Burkle.

00:27
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Couples Therapist's Couch. This is Shane Burkle, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

00:56
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. I'm excited to share with you an interview I did with Wendy Bihari who wrote Disarming the Narcissist. She's just such a great expert on working with narcissism in couples therapy. But before I get to that episode, I want to remind you that this week is the last week to register for the couples

01:26
therapy intensives, the blueprint, which is my six week live training for therapists who want to begin offering couples intensives in their practices. So I'm really excited to get started. It starts next Tuesday. If you can't make the live calls, that's fine. You can watch the videos, but I really want to help people with every angle, every aspect to help them start getting to offer intensives in their own practice.

01:53
So we'll be diving into the clinical stuff with the four C's, but also the business stuff like pricing, scheduling. And again, really just helping you with your own personal questions and your own practice. There'll be plenty of time with me to answer your questions. And I'm really excited for this cohort to get going. So you can register at cit.shaneburkle.com back splash blueprint. And I'll put a link to that in the show notes.

02:21
Hey everyone. Welcome back to the couple's therapist couch. This is Shane Burkle. And today I'm speaking with Wendy Bihari, director of the Schema Therapy Institute of New York City, New Jersey and DC and author of Disarming the Narcissist. Hey Wendy, welcome to the show. Hi Shane. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. I know that this is a topic that so many people are interested in as far as working with narcissism, how to

02:50
work with people we think might have those characteristics and in our own relationships. But why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about yourself before we get into that? I have been working with this population for 30 years. I work primarily with narcissistic men. Certainly I've treated narcissistic women too, but I've tended to see more narcissistic men, not because there aren't that many women there are.

03:18
And I work with individuals and couples and partners who are dealing with this in their lives, family members who are dealing with a narcissist in their lives. So it's been pretty much my, my world for the last 30 years is working with this group and continuing to adapt the approach called schema therapy to best fit the needs of those individuals and couples in the treatment room. That's great. Have you, I'm curious, have you noticed over the course of

03:47
30 years, is there a difference in the way that people are talking about this in society or a change in how much people are talking about it? Yeah, that's a really good question. It's so talked about now that it borders on distortions, right? So we have been spending a lot of time speaking in my lectures on how to debunk the myths, how to demystify this issue. Because now if you talk about yourself,

04:16
for three minutes, you're a narcissist. Everybody's a narcissist and narcissism is evil and narcissists are demons and narcissists can't change and narcissists can't be empathic. now narcissists are autistic. So that's also been coming up a lot. It's startling and it's distressing to me to see some of this because it's simply not true or not always true. There is.

04:45
Certainly room for there's accuracy in some of it. know, narcissists are not easy to treat and they don't change easily. It takes a lot of work to make that happen. Not everyone is a narcissist because they may have moments where they're a little more self-involved. Narcissism is not a one size fits all diagnosis. It happens along a spectrum, right? Everything from mild to more severe types that might be highly aggressive and abusive others that are

05:14
annoying show off and you know we have more grandiose types is kinda confident leaders mavericks you know masters of the universe and then you have the more vulnerable types who can live in the fantasy bubble most of the time and are much more sensitive to criticism need reassurance not that they don't do harm they all do harm they can all be extremely hurtful.

05:41
to their partners, their family members, their relationships, their coworkers, their subordinates, et cetera. They can also be incredibly charming and heroic. So it's confusing and it's hard. Many therapists will miss this in the treatment room or they'll see it and become easily intimidated and overwhelmed by it because it really is a tough client to work with, mostly because they don't often come into therapy willingly or they come in

06:09
and they come in with a very entitled, controlling attitude, it's not easy to be sitting there as the recipient of attacks and anger and control and entitlement and criticism, which is what you're usually sitting with, at least in the early phases. Yeah. And, uh, I think with social media, I've had so many people, you know, tell me they're their partner.

06:36
maybe sent them a video from social media and their partners like, look, see you're, you're a narcissist, like, because, know, you fit with what this video says. And there's so much bad information out there as I try to explore it a little bit as well. But, um, you know, maybe, maybe that would be, and I know you just gave some examples of very different presentations of what a narcissist could look like, but maybe we could, maybe you could, um, start by defining a little bit more like what,

07:06
How do we know if it's truly something that looks like narcissism or maybe, or if it's more just like selfishness or something else? Well, you know, to meet the criteria for narcissistic personality disorder, there are certain, you know, personality traits that often show up, a kind of arrogance and entitlement and

07:30
Control and grandiosity self aggrandizing fantasies of grandeur things of that type. That diagnosis has been controversial it's been moving in and out of the statistical manuals. So we know i think what's probably most befitting and most helpful to clinicians is thinking about this that happens along the spectrum so again at the low end of the spectrum you have people who are occasionally.

07:57
annoying and very show off ish you know they can. They can be all about themselves in and not those manipulative ways not in those ways they may even be able to show some degree of empathy they may be lower on the entitlement and exploitation side of things but as you move along the spectrum you'll find those who clearly meet a criteria and i have this in my book you know the different criteria.

08:22
Like being more arrogant entitled manipulative dominant controlling critical condescending devaluing. Can also and charming can also be very charming that's important because it's a coping style as well what are the ways in which they cope it's one of the ways they in which they get what they want. Make some very successful in courtship and in making deals and brokering other agreements.

08:50
So, and then at the far end of the spectrum, you can find, you know, more aggressive, abusive, volatile, threatening, unsafe, you know, tipping into antisocial personality types, perhaps what used to be called, maybe still is called by some, you know, malignant narcissism. So we have that. And I think that it's important just based on, to some degree, the prognosis, you know, where we can actually make a difference.

09:20
what it's going to take to have the leverage that's necessary, the consequences that are meaningful enough to get the narcissistic individual into treatment and to sustain them in treatment. That is the challenge for most therapists. But it's not the same as someone who just, you know, is having a great day and talking about themselves because they're so happy about the promotion they just got or the wonderful dress they just found that they've been searching for for six months.

09:49
not narcissistic if that person also has the capacity for reciprocity and for thoughtfulness and for kindness and for taking turns and for empathizing with others. But it's. It's become a little dangerous you know there's all kinds of lingo the monkey branching and the flying monkeys and the gas lighting and the. Blame shifting i'm trying to think of all these new terms that are all over the internet now.

10:17
I'm saying that with a little bit of cynicism Shane but i do respect the fact that knowing this and understanding this syndrome is extremely helpful to people who have been suffering living in it. I'm the first one to say learn all you can about narcissism because it's liberating it will help emancipate you from whatever self blame self doubt you have been suffering with.

10:43
you know, living with someone like this who has been telling you that you're the crazy one and you know, you're the problem and you're too needy and you're too selfish. Um, so learn about it because the more you learn about it, the more you start to find your ticket to freedom, at least emotionally, not necessarily that you're going to depart the relationship, but at least emotionally you begin to start here. You begin to find your voice again. So, yeah, that's great. When you mentioned the,

11:11
person with NPD using certain coping strategies. My mind went to like a, and maybe this isn't what you meant, but my mind went to the, a protection of their own shame or a protection of, know, they don't want to feel bad about themselves. So they point the finger at their partner, whoever else in the situation. And so the partner ends up sort of questioning their own reality of like, am I really a problem or like, you know,

11:41
It doesn't feel right that I keep getting blamed for everything or something. Well, exactly. You raise a good point. there's two, three things that you said just now that are really important to highlight. One is narcissists carry a big bundle of shame at the core of their personality, often feel insufficient and secure, inadequate, but they've learned well, you know, through their own construction of these survival mechanisms, how to cover that up and how to

12:11
present a facade of power and self assuredness and some of them have been quite successful in their lives because they were the gifted kid who could do great things and go on and be super autonomous and make money and have power and title so they've got quite an armor that they can live within and live behind but someone crosses their paths they they assume someone stepping on their their power.

12:40
trying to control them and then the finger does get pointed. You're the problem, you're too sensitive, you have no sense of humor, what's with you? You want so much, you don't appreciate anything. I do everything, you appreciate nothing. Nothing's ever good enough for you. They can be pretty persuasive and quite coercive at the same time. And then you've got the other issue where they're out there in the community looking like a wonderful human. Oh, right.

13:07
doing all kinds of wonderful things and philanthropic and charming and helpful and funny and telling good stories. And so you're the partner at home going, must be me. Maybe it is me. Everybody loves this guy or this woman. Everybody loves them. Must be me. So you really start to question your own reality. Right. And I find that it's hard.

13:32
sometimes when you have a couple in couples therapy and you're seeing some of these dynamics, the other thing is that how do you bring it up with the person with NPD in a way that feels compassionate or, or doesn't put them into that defensive place or, know, or their partner may have experienced that many times where they've tried to bring up that reality and it gets shut down. You know, that's a, that's a big challenge. I feel like.

14:01
Because it is a challenge you have to mitigate what you anticipate will be a lot of shame defensiveness push back justifying justifying rationalizing right so i always start with the kind of thinking out loud strategy which is. I want to say this to you in a way that does not sound offensive it's not meant to offend you it is a pejorative statement and word if you read about it there's nothing.

14:30
Positive about this that you're find on the internet, so I'm going to say the term But then I want to quickly I want you to allow me to explain what I mean So I might say or they already know they've googled me and they find Wendy Beharie with 5,000 pages with narcissism next to my name So they can't already come in defensive, but I want to go quickly into the story of the child who

14:57
Learned how to protect themselves and survive in the world through these coping modes these narcissistic coping modes and and so that's how we tell the story it's like let's stop focusing on the label which is not really very helpful to you and for me the label only helps me to start thinking immediately about a particular pattern of protection that you designed in your life when things were hard or things were challenging.

15:26
or you were taught this, somebody told you, go out, do well, you can have whatever you want, know? Somewhere you learned the message and it became a way of being. But I suspect there's also a part of you that's much more vulnerable underneath all of this. So I wanna move right into understanding the origin story, understanding the narrative, the messages, where did they come from? And try to steer clear of, you know, all this batting back and forth about

15:55
narcissism because it is, you know, it's such a negative term. Not that we have, we're not avoiding it. It's not to sugar coat it. It's just, let's make sure we're telling the truth. Yeah. And I'm sure it's helpful to highlight ways in which it's keeping them stuck in the present or keeping them from more connection with their partner or whatever it is that they really want. And I love how, I love how you just said that as far as like,

16:25
How do you quickly move into compassion for them and say, again, here's what I made up is something like, there's some reason why it makes sense that you are operating in this way in the world. And let's go to exploring, you know, what may have happened during your childhood that you needed to develop these strategies, something like that.

16:47
Absolutely. And it's really actually more I'm going to say this for your listeners, because listeners always get ruffled with the word compassion for narcissists. Yeah, so it's there's compassion for the vulnerable parts underneath, you know, the little child who grew up with not a lot of choice, except to kind of follow the demands and the expectations, maybe of a parent who had, you know, this dream to live through the kid.

17:14
It's kind of vicarious dream of living through your child is going to do great things and make you proud so compassion for that child but what we're talking about here is empathy and which is different empathy is we want to develop a really deep understanding of what happened i want to feel it in my bones you know i want to like feel that story resonating in me in my client.

17:39
And together we're making sense out of things. It doesn't mean I agree with it. I don't agree with the rotten behavior that might be getting displayed with a partner, but I understand why it's there. And there's a difference between agreement and understanding. And there's a difference between compassion and sympathy, which is more of a, a sorrowful feeling and wanting to help and to fix, which as a therapist, yes, we, we were sort of, we slide into that zone, but we have to start with.

18:09
really empathically attuning to what makes you tick, know, what happened? Tell me the story. And as you just said it, which was really lovely, the way you said it, Shane, you're going to get pushback, you know, we always get pushback. that's saying it isn't necessarily the hard part because we're trained to do that. It's the pushback of.

18:30
Nothing happened in my childhood what are you talking about my childhood was perfectly fine i'm fine and i mean everybody else my i'm living with a partner is just so damn sensitive about everything. I don't see what's wrong with my behavior i mean i'm fine i mean look at i'm a thinker i think out loud i talk fast i think fast i've got a lot going on in my world i put a very nice roof over her head so you know i mean i don't even know why i'm sitting here but if it's gonna get her to shut up and stop talking about divorce then okay i'm here.

18:59
Right. Well, and there's, mean, I was thinking like, if the partner of that person that you were just describing, you know, if there is abuse and manipulation and all of these things, like one option is, uh, you can't, know, to leave the relationship and the, now, you know, I'm sure most of us would be supportive of that and say, that's fine. If that's what you would like to do, we can discuss what that looks like.

19:29
But if there's any part of you that wants to work on this, I think that's where the empathy becomes really important as far. It doesn't mean that you can't set boundaries for yourself. It doesn't mean that you, you, you can't stand up for yourself, but if you're going to work with this person on having a relationship, like a marriage, there has to be some level of that empathy where for those vulnerable parts, like you said,

19:54
Well, that the empathy is the understanding. So it's I say to them, you will have a better and more assertive voice when you really understand this. Once it makes sense to you, you're not going to like it, but you will be better able to not get caught in the, my gosh, should I apologize? Oh, dear. I should just put my head down. Oh my God, I should walk away. Or should I just let him have it instead? It's more of a confident, calm, resolute. That's not okay with me.

20:23
That's just not okay with me anymore. You can't talk to me like that. We'll talk when you're calmer. Oh, you're in control now? I'm taking care of me. And I'm in the spirit of protecting this relationship. I'm gonna step away. So we can help partners to actually become sturdier by having a greater appreciation for what they are up against. To have a sturdier voice, you don't have to be angry all the time. You don't have to be giving in all the time. You don't have to be avoiding all the time.

20:53
You can set limits you can hold them accountable you're not going to be the therapist who changes them by yourself unless it's a really mild form of narcissism but you could inspire some opportunities for change you could influence the possibility of getting into therapy with your narcissistic partner getting them to go to therapy because it's a tricky issue in couples therapy when there are layers of narcissism in the room that might

21:21
require some individual work before you can do the con joint work in session. Building a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers.

21:50
They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment. Plus, when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more.

22:19
You use the, uh, the term leverage. I'd love to hear you talk about what that means when you're working with a couple like this. I often ask partners, do you think you have any leverage? Meaning, do you think there is a consequence that is meaningful enough that we'll get the narcissistic partner to go into therapy? Something that matters enough that they would go because they don't typically like to go to therapy. And so they often come in.

22:49
because someone said get help or that's it or get help or I can sort of see the finish line coming or get help or you're going to lose your job. That can happen to get help or you're going to lose your driver's license. adult kids aren't going to talk to you anymore. There's something that might be meaningful enough. We call that, you know, the high stakes leverage that will get them to come in. And then it's really the therapist's hard job to keep that leverage high.

23:16
and to get that leverage to transfer into the therapy relationship. I want them to feel the benefit of being connected to me in the treatment room and the work that we are doing to feel the effects on their lives in a positive way so that now the leverage is in the relationship and coming into the therapy relationship. And that's a hard transfer to make. That takes time to build that. But it has to start with something because the ones that come in voluntarily

23:46
are usually the ones that they want a quick fix. Right, right. Would you say it like if you have enough time with someone, they'll come around to sort of seeing the world in a different way and not feeling like they need to be so protected and after doing, let's say after doing a lot of work, a lot of therapy work with a particular individual, but like the leverage is like, how do you get them in the room in the first place? Because they're not, they're going to be very protected around.

24:14
getting into that work in the first place. Yeah. Yeah. And that is the leverage. So if a partner says, get help or get out and it matters to them, cause they don't want to lose their marriage. They don't want to lose. It may not even be so much this kind of deep love for the partner, but this sense of failure that they're going to face sharing money that they don't want to share, you know, just how it looks to the community or to their job or their status to their family.

24:42
So it may be enough to get them to come into the treatment room. And that's what we call, you know, leverage something that matters enough. So they do come in, but then, you know, I have a client who is not all that excited about coming to the therapy. So, oh boy. And is coming in basically to prove the point that they're fine and they're not the problem, but here I am. And, know, as you said, we can weaken.

25:11
those very self-defeating narcissistic coping modes. We can weaken them once the narcissistic client is more deeply grounded in the sense of feeling secure and knowing that they're okay in the ordinary ways, like an ordinary human. Because they're often searching for the extraordinary. They have to be the best. They have to be extraordinary. They have to be the masters. They have to be on top. They have to be first in line.

25:40
And so when they can tolerate that feeling, you know, getting off that hamster wheel, because it is a burden, it is exhausting. There's power in there for sure. And the power is like a drug. But when they can get off that hamster wheel and realize that they really don't have you don't have anything to prove, you can be a human. You know, that's not the thing that people care about you, they may admire you because you've got this big job and this amazing car and

26:09
So they admire you, they may be a little jealous of you, but that's not what makes people care about you. And it's the caring part that's missing. It's the connection that's missing. They're high on performance and low on connection. And that's what we're trying to build in the treatment room is that value for, huh, you know, being able to kind of rest and to connect. And they don't see that right out of the gate.

26:38
I'd love you to speak more to the partner. You know, you, you, you had said, um, one of the things you said was kind of coaching them. Uh, I would call it like having healthy boundaries, like coaching them about like, in a calm way, like, Hey, you know, you can't treat me this way or, or, you know,

27:03
If you don't go to couples therapy with me, I don't think I can continue to be in this relationship. We need to figure out how to communicate better. And it's sort of this calm sort of like boundaries of this is what, this is what I need. This is what my boundary is. And, but there's a risk there. It's like, you sort of have to be detached from like clinging to the relationship because if you set firm boundaries, that other person might not play along. They might not be willing to go to couples therapy or

27:32
work on it. The hope is that it will provide enough leverage that they will and you can work on things and get better. But do you feel like that that could be the like, one of the first things that you're doing, even if you haven't brought up the terminology of NPD yet, or something like that, that you're kind of empowering the partner?

27:59
Absolutely. mean, I'm learning often from partners when I meet them in consultation, you know, they're, coming to me because they're, think they're living with someone who has narcissistic traits or is maybe a pretty serious covert narcissist or so they're, you know, they're suffering, they're struggling and they're maybe at their wits end, but they're scared too. You know, it's scary. It's not easy to just say, okay, help me make a departure plan. I got to get out.

28:27
Maybe for some, they can and that's fine. I think we shouldn't judge anyone for the choices they're making because we don't know their unique stories. I have so many women in my online community who are still living in these relationships because A, finances, really scary. Children, they wanna protect their kids. They don't wanna leave their kids half time in custody with someone who thinks seat belts are ridiculous or.

28:56
Let's the kids look at, know, whatever they want on iPads and other devices. And it's so it's, you know, they, make the choice. They make some sacrifices. I mean, we get, there's finite choices, right? You can stay with the status quo. That hurts. You can try to change it yourself. That's hard. Not completely undoable, but hard. You can work to try to get professional help or you can get out.

29:23
But there's not a whole lot of other choices in there. And every day, as I say to my clients, you can make a different choice. You don't have to decide anything right now completely. Like you don't have to, you don't have to put it in stone. Just you think about it. You wake up, you just, what I want my clients to be able to do is understand narcissists. If it sounds like narcissism, I want to teach them what that is so they can be making an informed decision.

29:53
I want to investigate what obstacles in their own personal makeup have caused them strife in trying to where they've lost their voice. They've lost their power. They've lost their assertiveness, their self advocate. So I want to figure out like what's in their story and in their experience, it's caused that to happen. We want to begin to bypass that so that they can say things like, and when you're working, when you understand narcissists, you know that you never start with if you don't get help, this is over.

30:23
a threat and that's an opening for a fight and narcissists love a fight. So they won't take that very seriously right away. You're going to need to say that probably a few more times and then maybe take some distance. But they might respond more favorably to you saying, I'd really like this to work. I really would like to have a relationship where we could feel close to each other. I missed that. think we had that a long time ago. At least that's my memory.

30:53
I'm not blaming you. I'm not making you the bad guy. I'm just saying this isn't very satisfying. And I see us heading to like to a split perhaps down the road. And that makes me sad and scared and sometimes really frustrated. I think we need help. And I think without it, we can't, we might be doomed. Right. That's a very different presentation. And I think you could still get the door slammed in your face because

31:23
Narcissists, you never know what you're going to get, what mood, what's going to get activated in them. But for the most part, this one can, they will go silent and they'll sit and they'll sort of synthesize this information. It may take a little while and you may have to say it a few times. Well, there's something very strong in saying it that way. I think it's helpful. was wondering, so if, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about schema therapy. I know you could probably teach on it for hours.

31:52
But why it tends to be a good fit for these situations. It's a model that I'm extremely passionate about, founded by Dr. Jeffrey Young back in the 1980s, actually became really popular in Europe and Asia where it was largely studied. So we have a lot of evidence to support it. It's now growing. We're getting some traction in the States. Finally, I've been doing a lot of teaching in the US on schema therapy and of course,

32:22
kind of all over the place. So that's exciting. But what it is, is basically it's a needs meeting model and it's looking at these early maladaptive schemas, which means emotional life themes, emotional traits, these belief systems basically that grow out of our early experiences in our biological makeup. So think about this with a narcissist. If they grow up in a family where they were made to feel that they were mama's little prince, perfect.

32:52
and daddy's little nightmare, nothing's ever good enough, try harder, do better. They grew up with a lot of confusion. Love feels conditional, not unconditional as every child needs. There's a lot of shame surrounding anything that looks vulnerable because that's weak and pathetic. Performance is highly valued, but not necessarily with extraordinary praise, just a big expectation around that. So.

33:18
If you look at that story and you think, what schemas could grow out of that? Well, emotional deprivation, this belief that people don't care about you. Nobody cares about you. That's ridiculous. Nobody wants to know you. People act nice to you so they can use you. So I just said two schemas, mistrust and deprivation. If they've had more trauma in the background where they were abandoned or abused, they may also have a schema that correlates with that. They have schemas that will say things like,

33:47
You you've got to win people's approval. You've got to be the best of the best and never stop trying in order to not be that defective, insecure, inadequate failure that you were in the eyes of your father. So schema therapy is all about how can we correct those biased emotional experiences and begin to weaken those schemas, know, trading them for more positive schemas by building a healthier adult mode.

34:15
And that means we have to connect with the vulnerable child. We have to use the imagination. We have to engage emotion. Yeah, I could talk about this for days, but essentially it's really pattern breaking, self pattern breaking, getting at those core needs. And yes, we can as much to the narcissist chagrin, well, not really chagrin once they experience it, they're actually quite smitten with the model. But until then, when you're still in the battle,

34:42
It's this idea of you can't change the past. Why are we talking about the past? My father was a loser. He said, I'm a loser. You can't change that. And I say, I can't change the fact that he said it, but we can change the fact that you believed it and you're still responding to it as if it's true. That's your schema. Right? So that's just a really kind of small example of how it looks. Yeah. And all of us have

35:11
things that we went through throughout our lives that influence how we see reality in the present. Would you agree with that? As far as all of us could probably benefit from schema therapy. I think everyone could benefit from schema therapy because we are humans who live at the mercy of our memory. Yeah. As long as we live at the mercy of our memory, there are going to be times when we're really fine, you know, and the healthier you are, probably the more dormant your schemas are because you have healthier coping modes that you've developed.

35:39
But under certain activating conditions, we can all feel those schemas getting activated. And if we're lucky, we can differentiate the past from the present moment. But so many of us are on automatic pilot. So you get triggered and then you just go, you know, and you, you shut down or you give in, or you I'll show you, you fight back. We go to our survival system, even though we're not powerless anymore. Like we were when we were little. Right.

36:08
I use this language with the couples I work with a lot, which is what is the meaning that you're making up about what's happening in this moment? You know, which is helps people. mean, sometimes can be helpful to help people move into consciousness of like, you know, it's like, let's say my wife is running late and I feel really disrespected or something like that. It's sort of like, why am I making up the meaning about like, she probably has no clue. It's not like she's trying to be offensive, but

36:38
Why am I making up that type of meaning? Right? That's connected probably to a schema for me of something I grew up with. Right. Exactly. If it's something that has kind of a thematic quality to it, you know, that I always jumped to that conclusion. I always kind of rushed to that meaning. I love what you just said, because I asked the same question. Like, what are you making that mean? What did you make that mean just now? She made a face and you made it mean something. And it meant a whole bunch of things.

37:07
She doesn't care. She's judging me. She thinks I'm an ass, you know. And so you made it mean all those things. What else could it mean? It's a little bit of a cognitive strategy, right? And we think about it. Maybe she's just sad. Maybe she has a headache. Maybe she's thinking about something. You know, there's the thing called you could ask the question and you could also say, I'm feeling upset when I look at you with that face because I don't know what's going on between us.

37:37
So, but something got triggered in here and before you know it, you are already in a coping mode. You are ready to attack. Don't give me that look. Right. And you're off into conflict. Does schema therapy talk about how human beings are sort of valuable, worthy people, each, each individual as far as like, so if I don't believe that.

38:05
then I'm constantly trying to prove it, right? So I might try to get a really high paying job to prove that I'm enough, or I might, if my partner, if I feel criticized by my partner, then I get really defensive because I want to prove that I'm not a bad person. So it's like connecting people to their worthiness or something like that. Well, that's exactly right. And that's exactly what happens with narcissists. I mean, it's, they're always about proving, defending, performing.

38:32
And denying all of it, of course, at the same time. you know, they'll say, I'm, I'm better than fine, Wendy. I'm, I'm good. I'm great. And I say, if you really knew deep down inside that you were fine, I think deep inside you're fine. You have a fine little boy in there or little girl in there who's totally fine, but you don't know that you don't know that, which is why you continue to behave in ways that are aimed at

38:59
impressing everybody and winning approval and trying to, you know, outshine someone next to you because you don't know that there's nothing wrong with achievement. I always say you don't have to be apologetic for your achievements and your ambition. That's fine. But it's not all linked with just ambition and the passion and the joy of the work. It's a lot of it's linked with I have to do this to be okay. Right. You don't know that you're okay.

39:27
There's a, yeah, there's a different energy around it, right? There's this feeling of like, like I need to perform in order to prove myself every day versus versus I feel healthy in the world and I have goals that I want to reach, you know, which is a different energy around it. Very different. Good. Well, this is such a, an insightful conversation. Any, anything else you would add, you know, as we begin to wrap it up in the last couple of minutes here.

39:55
I would just, you know, I'll just emphasize something I started with, which is, you know, learn all you can about, about narcissism, about what it means about what it is and what it isn't. And learn about that, learn about take a moment to figure out, you know, what might be getting in my way, what schemas might be triggering me under certain conditions that move me into places that silence me when I need to be more vocal.

40:24
There's so many beautiful strategies that can be utilized to be an effective communicator without, you know, having to constantly be in conflict with even the most difficult people out there. But we do have to get that knowledge underway so that you can breathe again, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I would say, you know, if you're going to get information about this to get Wendy's book, like,

40:52
don't just take whatever you find on social media because you never know where that is coming from. So make sure it's good resources. And, um, just to remind everybody, your book is disarming the narcissist, uh, Wendy Beharie. And, you know, that, this, I think that's a really good place for people to start as far as getting that background information and understanding this stuff.

41:18
Thank you. I appreciate you mentioning it. I have a lot of goodies and resources on my website, is disarmingthenarcissist.com or just type in Wendy Beharry. It'll take you to my website. So another place to find some resources, some good reputable authors on the topic of narcissism, like Craig Malkin, who is in Boston, not far from you. Um, so there's, you know, there's a lot of that's some really good people out there who are talking about this in

41:47
thoughtful science-based ways. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Thank you so much. I'll put the link to your website in the show notes, but thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. It's a pleasure. Thank you, Jane. I also want to remind everyone that the registration for the couples therapy intensives, the blueprint is happening now. That's the six week course.

42:12
getting into the details of how to facilitate intensives, navigate challenging clinical moments, and build the practical foundation for offering them in your practice. All the business stuff as far as pricing, how to respond to people's emails, how to put them on your website, scheduling, everything that you need to start doing intensives in your own practice. You also receive six months of access to the Inner Circle, so

42:41
That involves face-to-face time with me as well, where I'll continue to help you for six months if you need ongoing support getting intensives into your practice. So you can find all the details at cit.shaneburkle.com back splash blueprint. And I'll put a link to that in the show notes. Thank you so much. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

43:10
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Burkle and this is the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye everybody.