300: Brave Love, Great Sex with Dr. Laurie Watson & George Faller

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Laurie Watson & George Faller about Brave Love, Great Sex. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 300: Brave Love, Great Sex with Dr. Laurie Watson & George Faller

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

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In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Laurie Watson & George Faller about Brave Love, Great Sex. Laurie is an internationally recognized sex therapist, couples counselor, and educator with over 35 years of experience helping people heal their most intimate relationships. George is a husband, father, therapist, educator, speaker, author, and global leader in helping people reconnect and strengthen their relationships. Their latest book is Brave Love, Great Sex: Harnessing Attachment Theory for Passionate Relationships. Hear the sexual side of attachment theory, the 3 systems in a romantic relationship, how to work with clients where only 1 partner wants to have sex, the role of compassion when it comes to sex, and the safety couples therapists provide to clients when talking about sex.

Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• Saying no to sex is healthy, but you still have to talk about it
• Why therapists often accidentally pathologize the sexual pursuer
• When sex becomes an attachment regulation strategy instead of desire or intimacy
• Seeing the emotional and sexual cycles simultaneously instead of separately
• The line between genuine caregiving and guilt, manipulation, and acquiescence

To learn more about Dr. Laurie Watson & George Faller, visit:

LaurieWatson.com

GeorgeFaller.com

Brave Love, Great Sex Book & Podcast

Show Notes

• 300: Brave Love, Great Sex with Dr. Laurie Watson & George Faller
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• Welcome to the show Dr. Laurie Watson & George Faller!
• [1:56] Why EFT alone doesn't always fix the sex life
• [3:47] Sexual attachment is just as important to the couple's bond as emotional attachment
• [4:47] The three attachment systems in romantic relationships
• [6:36] How the pursue-withdraw cycle shows up sexually, not just emotionally
• [8:03] When one partner needs emotional safety to have sex and the other needs sex to feel emotionally safe
• [9:59] What caregiving actually looks like in a romantic relationship
• [11:26] What a blocked caregiving system looks like 
• [12:20] The line between genuine caregiving and guilt, manipulation, and acquiescence
• [13:42] Making the "we" a priority 
• [14:38] Saying no to sex is healthy, but you still have to talk about it
• [15:36] What sexual responsiveness actually means 
• [16:57] Why it matters that the sexual pursuer's needs get validated too
• [22:05] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [20:34] Moving from fight or flight into compassion for your partner's protective strategies
• [21:32] How the EFT method helps couples move from protection to vulnerability to longing
• [23:27] The last step that actually changes things in the bedroom
• [25:22] Moving away from "truthiness" about sex and toward speaking from your own experience
• [26:21] How to hold space for both the sexual pursuer and the sexual withdrawer at the same time
• [27:18] Why therapists often accidentally pathologize the sexual pursuer
• [31:07] Why avoiding these conversations leads to erosion, the daily grind, and infidelity
• [32:33] The "best sex talk" is a questionnaire in the book to help couples start the conversation
• [33:29] How the book covers sexual dysfunction, infidelity, trauma, and aging through a couples lens
• [34:56] When the sexual pursuer's entitlement becomes part of the problem 
• [36:23] When sex becomes an attachment regulation strategy instead of desire or intimacy
• [39:34] Is the book worth reading even if your partner won't read it with you?
• [40:25] Why the book is structured as a story with exercises at the end of each chapter
• [40:54] Learn more at Brave Love, Great Sex Book & Podcast
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

  

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

 

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
We know that sex is so important to the bond that without it, the relationship can really erode.

00:11
the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Birkel.

00:27
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Couples Therapist's Couch. This is Shane Birkel and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

00:57
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and today I'm speaking with Lori Watson and George Fowler, hosts of the Brave Love Great Sex podcast and authors of the new book also called Brave Love Great Sex. Hey Lori and George, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having us.

01:26
Yeah. I'm so excited to talk to you both. I know this is really great. And as I said, I've loved your podcast and your Facebook thread for many years. And so it's, great to meet you finally. Yeah, absolutely. It's great to meet you in person. I mean, like I guess by zoom in person. By zoom. Yeah. And it's great to be on again, Shed. I don't know how many years it's been since I've been on your podcast, but it's, uh, you're doing some good stuff out there. Yeah. Yeah. George, I'll have to look up the episode.

01:56
so I can let everyone know which episode that was when you came on before. It a great conversation. don't remember anything before COVID, so I know it was before that. Oh, wow. Yeah, so it has been a while. But why don't each of you tell everyone a little bit more about yourselves to start off here? Sure. Well, we host a podcast ourselves, Brave Love, Great Sex, and we are publishing a book.

02:21
September 15th by the same name, Brave Love Great Sex, and that's Harnessing Attachment Theory for Passionate Relationships. And we are EFT therapists. I'm a doctorate in sexology, and I work with couples and have worked with couples in sex for about, oh dear, 26 years, and teach couples therapists on how to do kind of the integration of

02:51
their work with the sexual attachment, sexual attachment with their couples. Oh, that's great. And I'm George Fowler, EFT trainer. doing this for a little bit. I have a training platform, success and vulnerability to really, I'm super passionate. This is probably my firefighter background. I like micro moves and tactics and strategies in session and kind of breaking that down. And Laura and I compliment each other well.

03:19
She's the sex therapist who does couple therapy. EFT is fantastic when you help the emotional bond. So often the couple's sex life improves, but not all couples. And that's really what led me down this road of working with Laurie. like, what do we do with these couples where that's not the case? And try to really get more tools and education around that sexual cycle. And I think that's been some of the impetus for this book that

03:47
There's so much focus on attachment theory and emotional cycle, but there's almost nothing about the sexual cycle and attachment theory. And that's really what we kind of try to fill that gap. I was just going to say, I'd love to hear more about what that means exactly as far as the sexual side of the attachment theory. You softballed. Oh, good. Thank you so much. Right. Because sexual attachment, turns out the research shows is basically equivalent in terms of the importance that it brings to the couple's bond.

04:17
to their stability, to their joy together, to really bringing vitality to their life. And I think as couples therapists, we often focus on whatever the presenting problem is. And most couples come in and they are bringing something from their emotional life. It's the way we handle the children together. We don't handle money well. He doesn't listen to me. She's always nagging me. That is all content within the emotional cycle.

04:47
But it turns out that, bidden or not, sex is present and whatever is happening between them sexually has sort of a gravitational pull on their emotional cycle as well. Yeah, part of the research for this book that I was surprised about is the original attachment theory. As EFT therapists, we always say our client is the emotional bond and the emotional bond consists of three attachment systems. So you have the emotional, which we work with all the time,

05:17
and the sexual system, those two systems are need-based. They're looking for help and there needs to be met. And what they're looking for is that third system, that caregiving system to respond. So when you get a need being met by caregiving, that's co-regulation. That's constantly what we're trying to recreate in our offices. And we've done a lot at EFT with the emotional and caregiving systems meeting, but we haven't really done that with the sexual system.

05:43
those needs being met. And we know 70 % of therapists don't talk about sex. We grow up in families that don't talk about sex, right? It's private. We don't want to make people feel uncomfortable. And then this hugely important system for the safety and emotional bunch just goes silent and not addressed. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's so embedded in our society and the way we're socialized, you know, that it's shameful to talk about sex or whatever beliefs people grow up with.

06:11
makes it so that people have such a hard time with that. I'm very curious about, are there three systems or did you just name three of more? There are three systems in a romantic relationship. Like George was saying, there is the emotional connection, the sexual intimacy, and then the caregiving, which is kind of how we meet those needs emotionally and sexually. And I think that...

06:36
One of the ways we organize the emotional system and the sexual system is around the pursue-withdraw cycle. So one person kind of pushes, maybe they get a little bit anxious about the connection between them and their partner. And so they check in. And if that doesn't work and they don't get their partner's attention, maybe they'll complain a little bit. Eventually they escalate, they get angry because they're trying to push for

07:05
figuring out what is wrong between them and to get safe. And then their partner who hears this coming at them says, oh, I don't feel safe suddenly at all. I need to back up. I need to withdraw, pull back to find my safety. Right. And they are the withdrawers. So one person is pushing emotionally. The other is pulling back emotionally. And sexually, there's a pursue withdrawal system as well. You know, one person

07:34
pushes for more sexual intimacy. Maybe they feel safe in their body. That's the most tangible form of love for them. So they're concerned and a little bit anxious about, there going to be enough sex? Is it going to be the kind of sex that I need? Is there going to be enough intensity? Which makes their partner go, whoa, all you want is sex. They pull back. They're like, I don't feel as safe and comfortable in my body. And sometimes these two systems crisscross.

08:03
Like for instance one person says I don't want to have sex with you unless you're talking to me unless I feel emotionally safe and connected and the other person says You know, I don't really feel safe opening up to you until I know that I'm going to be met sexually and when you have sex with me that opens my heart and it's true both things are true and So as couples therapist we have to manage this crisscross pattern very frequently, especially in heterosexual couples

08:33
And there are many other patterns as well, but that's probably the primary one we're dealing with where the needs are opposite and the strategies to protect themselves are opposite. And that's really good news as a couples therapist because there's more common ground to work with. Like me and my wife, we have a crisscross pattern, right? So I don't understand why she gets angry, wants to talk before bed. I'd rather do it on the weekend. I want to just roll over, take space and say,

09:02
What is going on? It's not logical to be so angry about something. Yet if you put me in this sexual cycle, I'm the one that's reaching over to connect. And when she don't want it, she's not in mood, she has a headache, I could feel the anger and the protest I'd want to talk about. Like we're not that different after all. And that's what we're writing this book for. It's like, what is empathy? When you could touch something in yourself that knows what your partner's feeling, you could get closer together.

09:31
And it feels like men are from Mars, women from Venus, like we're speaking different languages when actually we're speaking the same language. And that's really the good news here. My wife doesn't understand why I walk away. Well, guess what? She rolls over. She's doing exactly what I do in a fight in the bedroom. Yeah, I like the way you're describing that. I've seen that set up so many times. Obviously doesn't apply to everyone, but a very high percentage of people experience that for sure.

09:59
I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit to how the caregiving fits in with that too. Yeah, sure. So in caregiving, we basically respond from empathy because our partner is hurting. So it's human to want to take care of somebody that is injured or hurt. And so when our partner comes forward with vulnerability and says, you know, the reason I need sex is not just to get off.

10:29
but I need it like my body feels relaxed afterwards. My heart feels close and open. And when I'm not having sex, I feel rejected and lonely. That kind of vulnerability pulls the partner's caregiving cycle online. And they're like, oh, you're hurting. And very naturally, as a human being, I wanna take care of my partner who is hurting. And so in this...

10:57
third cycle of care, you know, we say, okay, I want to make you happy. I want to heal this wound in you. And the need is met. Like as parents, we're always caregivers. In romantic relationship, our caregiving, we trade places. Sometimes I'm taking care of you. Sometimes you're taking care of me. Yeah. It's the most natural system, right? Baby cries, you pick the baby up. That's a caregiving system.

11:26
And what happens in negative cycles is if Lori comes to me and says, Hey, I feel lonely because you're never around. It triggers my emotional system to get threatened that I'm failing her and it blocks my caregiving system. A block caregiving system is the hallmark of a negative cycle. Both people are in protest or hurting, you know, and neither one of them are getting caregiver from the partner. And that's really all we're up against.

11:52
I can imagine how healthy and helpful this could be, but I also just want to name the fact that it could be a fine line. Like when you said that George, like when a baby cries, you, you know, give it, helps you to have compassion and give it attention. When your husband cries, it doesn't mean you should just have sex with them just to make them feel better. In other words, I understand the healthy way you're saying that, but we, but we have to be sort of conscious of.

12:20
there are different ways that can play out or healthy ways that can play out or not. Well, I think what you're talking about, right, is that in cycles there can be sort of extremes on either end. know, sometimes people do get manipulative with their pursuit, you know, and they can manipulate their partner, whine, cry, or guilt them maybe.

12:45
into doing something, that's not really the vulnerability we're talking that inspires the caregiving, the genuine caregiving. And sometimes a person can walk away and their partner feels punished. It's like, okay, I gotta do whatever you want me to do. That's sort of acquiescence. It's not care. When care comes forward, it's really this generous part of the heart that says, I want to make

13:14
I want to meet your needs. In fact, I'm making us, the relationship, a priority. the research shows, this is really beautiful, that when we make the we, the us part, as a priority, we have actually more sexual desire, like personally and subjectively. What does that mean, making the we or the us part? Yeah. So when we say, like for instance in the sexual attachment cycle, if my partner is

13:42
has more sexual desire than I do. And I'm like, OK, I don't feel it in my body, but this is important to my partner. So I will find a way out of my care to make it important to me to say we are more important than just my needs. And that doesn't mean I'm going to lay down and think of England, but I'm going to develop my eroticism in a way that I can meet my partner's needs in a reasonable way, right?

14:10
And the research shows that the person who makes that commitment to care for their partner actually in return experiences their own subjective sexual desire, which I just am so turned on by that whole thing. I want to highlight the, we're not advocating for people to have sex with their partner. Saying no to sex that is pressure filled, that doesn't work is the healthiest thing you can do.

14:38
but we are advocating that you need to talk about that. If your partner's main way into safety is through touch, and it's much more than sex, it's a physical system, and you don't feel safe, like you two have to address that problem, just like we address the emotional problem all the time. That's what this book's designed to do, actually give couples conversation that has a target of how do you get out of negative cycle where both of you are blaming each other and stuck in block caregiving, and actually risk asking for help.

15:06
Because when you could get help with what we're struggling with, then all of sudden the dynamics change. Yeah. I really appreciate the way both of you are navigating that. think it's so important, right? And I don't know. guess maybe we can keep teasing it out. You can help me understand better. guess I'm thinking about that it is about the emotional capacity where if my partner wants to have sex and I don't want to,

15:36
that I can bring a lot of caregiving to that conversation. I can say, honey, I love you so much. I care about you, and I really don't want to have sex with you right now. And that is responsiveness, Shane. That is actually, that's a perfect response because it's tender, it's direct, it's saying, I love you, I'm just not in the mood. That is actually sexual responsiveness. Sexual responsiveness doesn't necessarily mean

16:04
I have sex every time my partner wants to whether I'm in the mood or not. But when we ask somebody for sex, we want their eyes to light up. You we want it to hit and to land as a joyful something, you know, in their body. Doesn't mean necessarily that their eyes light up and then they say, yes, baby, right now I'm laying down. It does mean like you just said, oh.

16:29
I appreciate you asking so much and I would love to but I'm swamped right now. I'm under it. I can't do it. I don't have the energy or whatever. It's fine to say no. We can still be sexually responsive and say no. Yeah, that's great. like the couple's ability to navigate the conversation is almost, it's like more important to talk about sex than it is to have sex. other words, like for the partner with less desire,

16:57
to be able to say like, honey, I know this is important to you. I know I'm not quite there yet, but I do want to keep talking about it and figure out other ways we can feel connected. And just like that flow, even before the sex life is where the other person might want it to be. The invitation in his book is not to get the sexual pursuant to have more sex because they need that. It's also the fight for the sexual withdraw and say like,

17:26
What has happened to you that this beautiful system interconnection has gotten so oppressive and pressured that sometimes saying no is the safest thing for you to do. Same thing we're doing emotionally. We're trying to get the withdraw to come forward to see that how they've learned to survive has really cost them a lot too. Not just their partner. It's an assertion of self. It's an invitation to say, Hey, can you look at this too? Is there things that could change that would allow you to engage in those parts of yourself that right now have been kind of turned aside? Yeah.

17:56
Great. I think the beautiful thing about as systems heal, we do grow ourselves, right? The emotional withdraw becomes more articulate. They look inside and learn what they're feeling, what their body is telling them. And so for them, instead of being so cut off and alone, they actually have access to a new method to reach for their partner.

18:21
to say what they need, to say what they feel. And that can be brand new territory for somebody who traditionally protects themselves by staying independent. And I think the same sort of thing with a sexual withdraw, right? Sexual withdrawers don't necessarily not like sex. They might pull back because of the pressure system. They might pull back for many reasons, like they had trauma in their background.

18:48
or maybe their LGBTQ and their family rejected them when they came out. And so they learned sexual desire means that I will lose attachment. Feeling sexual desire is dangerous. And so they pull back. There are many reasons and it's very complicated. The emotional cycle is more governed by our attachment style. The sexual cycle is...

19:13
certainly influenced deeply by our attachment style, by what we feel is safe in the world or not. But there's many other things sexually, like our biology, our history, our first experiences, our traumas, all of that also impacts our hormones. Goodness, our hormones impact the way we move in the sexual cycle. Building a private practice can be challenging.

19:37
Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment.

20:06
Plus when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. Yeah, as you're saying that, just reminds me of the idea when we get into that fight or flight.

20:34
we go to those survival strategies, right? Where we want to just protect ourselves and it moves us away from compassion. And I think that's such a helpful step. If my partner doesn't want the same thing as I do or not connecting with me, if they're withdrawing or pursuing and I'm doing the other, you know, there's some reason why that makes sense for them at that moment and trying to move into that compassion for what's going on for the other person at that moment. Exactly.

21:04
Yeah, when we see that our partner is protecting themselves, not necessarily not caring about us, but they're withdrawing because that's the way they cope, we can have more understanding. And it doesn't, we don't personalize it as much. And we don't make up in our mind that their intention is to hurt us. And that helps us deescalate. And so we, we actually go in the book through a method, which is the EFT method to help couples.

21:32
get out of a negative cycle and to become more connected, both emotionally and sexually. And we're using that attachment lens to look at those three pieces you were just talking about, Shay. Like, one, how do they protect themselves? Right? Their fight or flight responses. Two, the only reason they're protecting themselves is something has been threatened. There's some vulnerability, some rejection, some message of failure, loneliness, sadness. And the good news is if you can get to the vulnerability,

22:00
The third part is every vulnerability has a logging. It has a need based in it. That is the solution to this problem. But you can't get to the logins when you're lost in a protection. So you need a space that can make it safe to go to your logins. But logins are the game changer here in both the emotional and sexual cycle to be seen, to be wanted. And we really break down the difference between safety logins, right? Which is, I'm afraid, can you comfort me? Versus growth logins.

22:29
That's what sex is about. It's like, want to be excited. I want to go on an adventure. I want you to cherish me. I want you to see it to me. Like those powerful logins to grow bigger than kind of ourselves. What a beautiful way of tapping into it. One of the things we talk about that I think your couples therapists will be interested in is that navigating the sexual attachment healing is certainly getting past all the hurts that they feel.

22:57
changing the pursue-withdraw cycle to be more about responding and reaching for each other. But we also see that there's a last step that is really essential, and that is to free eroticism. So the last thing that we want to do is see that it actually changes in the bedroom, because talking about all the hurts sexually doesn't necessarily get their sex life back online. And so we help them learn to sort of

23:27
in the room talk about their erotic feelings and needs and wishes, which is not something that, you know, we're usually trained to do as therapists. We're humans in a culture that says don't talk about it. But we're learning that this helps people actually put in motion a new direction sexually that is erotic and exciting again. It's so important what Laurie said. I just want you to catch that shade and

23:55
digest it a little bit. mean, you just can't talk about what's wrong all the time sexually. There has to be a point where those fears of comfort and you're feeling safer that you take it to the next level of actually being curious, exploring that, know, green brain, healthy stuff with expansion, critically important. what do you mean by exploring it? We talk a lot about catching glimmers, catching moments where your body is engaged and it likes

24:24
dancing, it likes the music, it likes the flirting, it likes the glass of wine, like the things that really get that positive energy up and running. Playfulness, we know great lovers are engaged, they're playful, they take risks, you know, they can surrender. Like these are amazing positive aspects, not just always this kind of fear-based comfort and reassurance that we kind of often think about when we think about EFT. Yeah, I mean, as Laurie was talking, there's something, you know, something I was thinking about, like

24:53
When the couple is in the room with the therapist, even that creates a level of safety for the lower desire partner. It's not like we're going to have sex right now. In my mind, it probably opens up the ability to have these conversations in a way that's safer. That's not like we need to do something about it at this moment. It's about the vulnerability, like you were saying, of expressing like, here's what

25:22
feels hard for me, here's what I'm struggling with. sure, I'm sure, you know, think something I talk about all the time is moving away from truthiness. Like what's wrong with us that we never have sex? That's a truthy statement as if there's a certain amount that's the right thing. Um, and moving the vulnerability is more about speaking about your own experience. Like my perception is that I would like to have more sex and it's hard for me when that's not happening.

25:52
And to me, it sort of enables the other person to hear it in a way where we don't have to argue over who's right or wrong. Absolutely. And I think you're right that being in a therapy room does make it safer for the sexual withdraw because sex is not imminent. But we also want to really consciously strive to make it safer for the sexual pursuer because many times their needs and longings

26:21
have been unanswered and they haven't been heard and nobody has validated that this is something deep in them that also needs to be responded to. So as therapists, we have to, I think, keep this balanced view of, yes, I want it to be safe for you to talk about sex, to talk about the pressure you feel, to talk about the reasons you don't want to do such a, know, best and so as a sexual act. That's okay too. And we also want to make it safe.

26:50
for the person who's more sexually engaged, who's the sexual pursuer to talk about first, what it's like to be rejected, but second, what it does for them when they imagine certain sex acts or frequency or something and how that enlivens them, how that lights them up. Both people need to feel safe to express this. And I think it's our job to keep that balance. And unfortunately, a lot of...

27:18
therapists lose that balance, right? We wind up pathologizing the sexual pursuer. We minimize it to they just want to have an orgasm. We don't appreciate the health that this is their primary way of feeling safe in the world. They shouldn't apologize for that. You know, a lot of the clients I work with, because they haven't grown up in families that can do emotional vulnerability, they don't have a lot of success with co-regulation. Wouldn't it make sense that their body compensates with that through touch and other areas of getting that connection?

27:48
You know, so really helping them just give themselves permission. That doesn't mean the impact might not be horrible for that partner, but a good couples therapist can hold two truths. It's okay that this person's primary way to feel safe is through touch. And the way they do it puts so much pressure on this other person. It's actually shutting them down and that having a choice between saying no and fighting or having sex their body don't want. I mean, that's a just classic cycle where both of them lose.

28:13
Yeah, this is one of the another one of those times where it's like, I like the way you said that George, as far as like both thing two things can be true at one time where like, it's so important to validate the reality of that person, you know, as they're talking about the importance of sex in their mind. I guess the other in my mind, another side of the coin is like,

28:40
There's a way you were saying, I don't want people to make up the meaning like, oh, this person grew up in this family. So they're sort of stuck with, this is the only way they can feel connected in the world because that's what something that might keep them trapped. In fact, that I need to have sex in order, in order to feel loved and connected. And if you think about, you know, a situation where let's say their partner got in a car accident and wasn't physically able to have sex.

29:09
like that would be a much bigger conversation, but there's a different orientation to that. When it feels like it's intentional from our partner, it's different. I don't want, yeah, again, I just don't want people to feel like validating their feelings doesn't mean that the meaning that they're making up is fully true, if that makes sense. Yeah, and I think you kind of have...

29:37
honed in on something that's important, Shane, that it's not necessarily the only way. And we want people to be facile emotionally to express their needs and sexually to express their needs and their love and their pleasure. Securely attached people have sex for two primary reasons, and that's to express love and intimacy and for pleasure. And so I think what you're saying is certainly there are other ways. First of all, there are many ways to be sexual.

30:07
You know, many, many ways to be sexual and to keep sex, the sexual connection potentially alive, even in terrible circumstances. You know, maybe it's, I think, kind of the issue that you brought up of, what happens if the partner has a terrible accident and can no longer be fully sexual? You know, but they can still meet together, right? On the sexual realm, maybe it's holding each other. Maybe it's cuddling naked. Maybe it's...

30:37
You know, one person holds the other or they lie next to them while the first one masturbates. I mean, there can still be ways that people connect deeply sexually without necessarily having penis and vagina sex or any other way that is all the way to orgasm. I mean, there can be special circumstances, but by and large, we know that sex is so important to the bond that without it, the relationship can really erode. It can be

31:07
bogged down in kind of the daily grind and they can be tempted by others into infidelity. So it's really important for it to stay strong. And wanting your partner's caregiving response doesn't take away. Both partners need to take ownership for how they do that. Right. So if I want sex with my partner, how I communicate, that's really important. You know, and I have to take ownership for how often

31:37
how I communicate it actually sets my wife up not to want to have sex. mean, that's the problem isn't just fixing her. The problem is both of us got to take ownership for how we're communicating what it is that we need. And again, that's opening up the space that we're trying to get couples. We when couples have these conversations, they're OK. It's the avoidance of these conversations that really lead us into into all kinds of problems. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

32:07
Yeah. And that's where I think the, you know, emotional safety is so important. Yeah. Being able to talk about these things in a safe way with each other to, um, make sure that it's not coming across as blaming or judgmental, uh, as people are doing that. For sure. Yeah. And we also offer in the book what we call the best sex talk.

32:33
which is a questionnaire for couples that just start having, I think the hardest thing is starting these conversations. A lot of times people don't know what to talk about. So they don't start the conversation. But in this, we give lots of questions, know, family of origin, know, vibrators, what turns you on, romance, how you think, how does your body feel, like just a whole range of topics for partners to just have fun and talk about what turns them on, what turns them off, just so they can start addressing these topics.

33:03
Yeah, that's great. We also have a section on sort of the five most common sexual dysfunctions just to think about them as a couple sustain perspective so that it's not just one person's body but it's a two people solution, right? That together they manage these issues and we kind of show how they could do that from a secure perspective.

33:29
And then we talk about infidelity, we talk about trauma, we talk about aging and how all of those impact the sexual connection. Yeah, I think it's so important what you said, Lori, about, you know, we're not necessarily talking about intercourse. Like the sex life could look a lot of different ways for a lot of different people. Absolutely. Like you were saying, George, just that feeling when your like your eyes light up or your partner's eyes light up and

33:58
Because I do think, know that there are a lot, this comes from the way we're socialized, I think. There are a lot of people who approach this with a sense of entitlement or making up the meaning that a good relationship has a certain type of sex or a certain amount of sex or something like that, and we're not doing that, so it must be my partner's fault. And I just want to be careful that...

34:26
the two of you are doing a great job sort of explain that and helping people navigate that communication where it makes perfect sense, whatever you want or whatever you're feeling, whatever your desires are. That doesn't mean the other partner is always going to be able to meet that. And there's an acceptance and a personal work that goes along with that. sort of, I mean, it could involve a grieving process of there's enough good stuff here that I'm willing to stay in this relationship even if I'm not getting

34:56
the amount of sex that I was hoping for. And we don't want to, therapists, to become coercive, right? We don't want to add to a cycle by being coercive and saying, you need to do it or you need to do what they want. We absolutely advocate that nobody has to have sex when they don't want to, but also that the sexual pursuer, yeah, sometimes that cycle kind of goes a little ski-wopped, right? And it can lend toward this entitlement that you talk about.

35:24
And so as therapists, we're having to deal with some really dicey conversations when one person says, well, you I married you and so you should have sex with me whenever I want. Like, what is that about? And we really see that EFT can contain that and help people get through that conversation. You know, the sense of entitlement or the sense of like, I don't want to have sex with you because you're such a turnoff. mean, there's all of it is

35:53
very difficult conversations, but having them out loud, we feel like we can help both the withdraw and the pursuer come together in this place of vulnerability. Right? Because sometimes the sexual pursuer is saying, look, I have to have sex every day or I don't feel good. That's my need. And it's like, really what they're saying, it's probably not necessarily a desire need anymore or a physiological horny need. It's really an attachment need.

36:23
I don't feel safe. I don't know how to calm my body down. And I'm using sex to do that. But unfortunately, then the other partner feels used instead of loved, instead of being made loved too with that intimacy and pleasure motive. So all that, we got to deal with that as therapists for sure. That's a good example. We use in this book the example of Joey and Maria, you know, a couple we've all seen through the process.

36:52
And I think really one of the big ideas of the book is most of us are looking at the problem as a sexual cycle or as an emotional cycle. We see these two separate things and we try to fix them separately. And we have this idea of the map, you know, the mega attachment cycle. It's looking at both of them simultaneously. Right. What happens when you don't want to have sex as has much to do what's happening outside the bedroom. It has what happens inside the bed.

37:17
Right. So that's has to be addressed when you're talking about sex, the emotional connection or disconnection. We're also say the opposite is true that a lot of times we don't think about. If you're not having sex and we know 20 percent of couples are not having sex, this is a pretty epidemic problem out there. How does that not influence some of the conversations around the kitchen table about the kids? Right. When you're feeling disconnected.

37:42
that also is going to impact some of these conversations. So we're just encouraging couples to see a bigger picture, to start recognizing that there more that's happening than just what's happening in the moment of what you're talking about. Yeah, I love the way the two of you were talking about the crossover of the emotional and sexual systems. Like that makes so much sense to me. I think that's going to resonate a lot for a lot of people. Thank you. Yeah.

38:10
Yeah, some couples are the same. call a parallel. They're the same position in both. And that's hard to work with. Right. If you're a double withdraw, a double couple people like that. Yeah, absolutely. It just it's a great way for people to move into that compassion we're talking about for each other. Like there's there's some reason why it makes sense. And I can see that I'm doing things on my side that are leading to negative things.

38:37
And I can be compassionate of the things on your side that might be leading to negative things. And it just sort of helps people have much more insight to kind of approach the issues that they're experiencing. Yeah, exactly. And we teach them to go from their heart, to move from their heart, and start speaking about their vulnerability. And the cool thing about it is when we are vulnerable, that creates risk.

39:04
And risk creates a lot of kind of sexy feelings. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's the absolutely that's great. And sexy feelings create a lot of emotional safety that carries over lots of other aspects of our life. Yeah. Well, would you say that? I mean, probably would be best if couples agreed to sort of read the book together.

39:34
Would you say it'd be helpful even if there's just one person and they can't really get their partner to read it with them, would it still be helpful for them to read? I think it would be organizing, right? That their conflict would be seen. And that's so deeply reassuring to us as people like, okay, I'm not the only one who's struggling with this. And then it gives them at least some direction and hope of where to go. Here it is.

40:00
Yeah, great. Yeah. Brave love, great sex. And we do have every chapter has an exercise for the couple to have a conversation. So it's great if they can do it together. But I agree with Laurie, if you're by yourself, your couple partner doesn't want to read it, then you're going to learn a lot about you and your partner just through the stories. Great. Yeah, good. Is this the type of book you would read sort of to just start at the beginning and kind of go through it? We wrote it as a story.

40:25
Okay. You know, so that it's, I mean, we kind of add in the structure around that, but it's really the way I like to read books. I learn from stories. And so we follow one particular couple with some sub couples along the way. And then we break out a little differently in our affair and aging couples and trauma chapters. Yeah. Great. The other thing I just want to give a plug for your podcast, you know, for anyone who's not familiar with.

40:54
Laurie and George, have what hundreds of episodes at this point talking about these issues, sex and love. So you can always go check out the podcast. And obviously the book is coming out around right around when this is going to be released. So definitely go get a copy of the book as well. Thank you so much. Brave love, great sex. Yeah. So that's the title for both of them, right? The podcast and the book. Yeah. Say that again. So everyone can find love, great sex. Great. Great. You can find us.

41:23
Well, thank you both for taking the time. really appreciate you coming on. This has been a great conversation. I'm really excited to read the book. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for having us. Yeah, Shane. It's been a pleasure and keep getting the message out there. The world needs it. Absolutely. Yeah, you too. You too. All right. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks.

41:52
visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Burkle and this is the Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody.