299: Understanding Shame with Dr. Frank Spinelli

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Frank Spinelli about understanding shame. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

• Episode Summary & Player
• Show Notes
• The Couples Therapist Couch Summary
• Transcript

The Couples Therapist Couch 299: Understanding Shame with Dr. Frank Spinelli

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Join the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Join The Couples Therapist Couch Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/295562197518469/

In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Frank Spinelli about understanding shame. Frank is a Physician, Health Coach, Author, and passionate advocate whose groundbreaking work bridges healthcare, storytelling, and social justice. His latest book is The Shame Compass: A Radical Framework for Trauma Healing and Self-Acceptance. Hear why shame is like a beach ball, why there’s nothing positive about toxic shame, why guilt can be healthy for couples, what happens with adults who were shamed as a kid, and the top reasons women & men feel shame.

Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• How isolation during the pandemic, a 47-page lawsuit questionnaire, and a night of blackout drinking sparked the book
• What if leaning into shame is the answer?
• why the shame never fully disappears
• Guilt vs. shame defined, and why you can't solve one with the other
• Why shame is universal but rarely discussed

To learn more about Dr. Frank Spinelli, visit:

FrankSpinelli.com

The Shame Compass: A Radical Framework for Trauma Healing and Self-Acceptance

Show Notes

• 299: Understanding Shame with Dr. Frank Spinelli
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• Welcome to the show Dr. Frank Spinelli!
• [1:23] Frank's background: physician, trauma-informed researcher, health coach at Reframe, and survivor of childhood sexual abuse
• [2:51] How isolation during the pandemic, a 47-page lawsuit questionnaire, and a night of blackout drinking sparked the book
• [5:44] What if leaning into shame is the answer?
• [6:41] Why healing is a process, not a destination 
• [7:59] Frank's manager triggers a childhood response, and the four P's interrupt the spiral
• [9:53] Living as if the original wound is happening again, right now
• [10:51] The difference between a wall and a boundary 
• [12:18] How an innocent question triggers disproportionate shame
• [15:32] Guilt vs. shame defined, and why you can't solve one with the other
• [16:57] Where does the shame voice come from?
• [18:47] How shame derails relational repair in couples
• [20:38] The difference between correcting behavior and publicly shaming a child 
• [22:05] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [22:35] Why affirmations work for shame but not guilt
• [24:23] How shaming parenting creates the belief that love must be earned through performance
• [25:21] How to confront shame in real time 
• [27:44] Why Frank called it the Shame Compass
• [29:08] The full COMPASS framework is Confront, Observe, Map, Process, Accept, Sustain, Service
• [30:28] Speaking your truth publicly as both healing and offering
• [32:20] The phrases Frank hears most, and why you can't just tell someone that's not true
• [34:14] Parents pass down what they never processed, and the cycle continues until someone names it
• [36:59] Why the COMPASS steps move people toward self-compassion 
• [38:56] How two people's shame histories collide
• [39:54] What are the top shame triggers for women?
• [41:20] What are the top shame triggers for men?
• [43:17] A couple's breakthrough: his unexpressed fantasy, her shame spiral, and how naming it dissolved the whole thing
• [44:39] Why asking for something different sexually triggers such fear 
• [46:33] Why shame is universal but rarely discussed
• [48:18] The signs of generational change
• [50:32] Find The Shame Compass: A Radical Framework for Trauma Healing and Self-Acceptance at FrankSpinelli.com
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

  

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

 

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
You can't use guilt solutions to solve shame's problems.

00:09
to the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane BIrkel.

00:25
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Couples Therapist's Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

00:55
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Burkle and today I'm speaking with Dr. Frank Spinelli, physician, health coach, and author of several books, including his most recent called The Shame Compass, a radical framework for trauma healing and self-acceptance. Hey Frank, welcome to the show.

01:23
Oh, thank you for having me, Shane. Yeah, absolutely. I'm really excited to talk about this topic. But before we get into it, why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about yourself? Sure. I'm based out of New York. I'm a New Yorker. If you couldn't tell from my accent, I'm a physician by training and I've been treating patients for, oh wow, over 16 years. also am a, I'm researcher. I do a lot of work in, um,

01:52
patient informed research, and a lot of work with trauma informed therapy. I'm also a health coach and a trauma informed coach, working with people at a platform called Reframe, which is helping them overcome their issues with alcohol and trying to find a better balance or achieve sobriety if that's what they want. And bulk of my research and my work has been with people who have been traumatized, whether it's

02:21
As an adult, which I'm sure we'll get into, or as children, I am a survivor of child sexual abuse myself. I've written a memoir about that. And most recently, because of the global pandemic where we were all in isolation, I felt an extreme surge of shame that occurred back in 2020. And that really sparked an interest in really exploring shame.

02:51
And so out of that came the framework I call the Compass framework, which became the book, The Shame Compass, which is why I'm here. Yeah, great. When you say that you witnessed a surge of shame around the time of the pandemic, are you talking about on a societal level? If we could back up. So like I said, I was, I had childhood trauma from the ages of 11 to 13. It wasn't handled well. It was mishandled in fact. And

03:21
I fortunately found a therapist who saved my life when I was in college and she was an art therapist. I had no idea. And she taught me to paint and she taught me to write. I wrote a lot for her. painted a lot for her and I survived and became a physician. And I thought with the years and years of therapy that I had achieved some sort of

03:50
success in getting over the guilt and the shame of what happens because when any child goes through an experience like that, you don't think it's abuse. You think it's my fault. So when I finally learned the words to say, oh, I was abused. This happened to me. I had nothing to do with it. I was a victim. And then you become a survivor. And I foolishly thought I had moved beyond that. And then cut to the 2020.

04:19
And we all went into isolation and a lot of the literature, especially research says that shame breeds in isolation. And so when I was isolated, I was having a lot of issues and a lot of the old feelings were reemerging. Now, simultaneously to this, I was involved in a very large landmark.

04:46
lawsuit against the Boy Scouts of America because my sexual predator was my scout master. And so I was one of 95,000 men who was suing the Boy Scouts of America. And in that same time, during the isolation, I had to fill out a 47 page questionnaire about my abuse. I mean, and that is graphic. The questions were very detailed. And I

05:16
did it while blackout drunk. was just, I was not coping well with the isolation. I wasn't coping well with the questionnaire. wasn't coping well with having to revisit the past that I thought I had buried. And I woke up the next morning very clearly and thought, well, one, something has to change. Two, I was thinking to myself, what if running away from shame, what if trying to suppress

05:44
Shame is the problem. What if I leaned into it and really listen to that voice that's in your head? And a lot of you probably know that voice. And I said, what is it pointing me towards? And perhaps what is it protecting me from? And if we allow ourselves to listen to the voice, I don't mean to say believe the voice, but if we listen to that voice, perhaps we could learn something about ourselves and

06:12
point us in the right direction. And then obviously from that came the idea of of a compass on the framework that I've developed. Wow. Yeah, that's amazing. I feel like, um, something resonated that you said when you said, you know, I think a lot of us either go to therapy or, or do some sort of healing and we feel we have that mindset where I'm going to get to the point where I'm totally healed and I'm all better. And then I don't have to deal with this anymore.

06:41
And when you were talking just now, it's like, that's almost like an excuse, or it could create this feeling where you're avoiding the issue in a different way. that point, therapy and healing isn't a destination you reach. Right. It's a process. So the idea that we are healed.

07:02
You're, I think it's just one of those things where you are healing. You're always in the process. And unfortunately, and I'm going to say this, and a lot of your listeners are not going to be happy. You will not get past what happened to you. You will move through it and it will become a lesser part of your life, but it will always be there. And the shame will be there. You may get it to the point where you have shame literacy and you can understand it and you can.

07:30
talk to yourself and parent yourself, but it doesn't really go away. And I realized that very clearly during the pandemic, because as you know, we're all on zoom calls like we are now. It changed everyone's life. And I was, I work with a lot of very narcissistic doctors and I had this wonderful man that I adored, but he was, you know, he was full of himself. And one day,

07:59
He just said something to me and I went into fight or flight. I froze because his tone of voice triggered something into me. It activated me and I really reacted to it. And through the process of shame literacy, I said to myself, wait a minute, wait a minute, that voice, that's not my manager. That's my child molester. And guess what? I'm not 11 years old.

08:28
This situation has nothing to do with that. And because I was able to understand that through the process of the framework, but also something that I teach in the book called the four P's, which is learning your first superpower is pausing. Pause and be present in the moment and ponder what the situation is. So I'm activated by my manager. I pause. don't react because I want to react. I.

08:57
or stay present in the moment. I'm like, okay, this is my manager. This is not my scout master. I'm not 11 years old. I'm a grown man. And what's going on here? What am I pondering? And then I saw the possibility, which is the fourth P. And I said to my manager, I understand your point. I need a minute to just respond. And when you allow yourself that time to pause, to be present, to ponder, and to see the possibilities,

09:24
you decide to answer for yourself instead of letting shame answer for me, because your reaction is to just go, what do you mean? And get all, for me, it's getting all uppity and probably overreacting to a situation disproportionately, which is what I wanted to avoid. So I felt that even though I may have transcended this molestation, I was still acting out

09:53
in situations because I happen to be activated. Yeah, that's a great description. I feel like so many of us, if we're not pausing and becoming present, I'll use your, uh, your piece. If you're not, if we're not pausing and becoming present, then we're almost like living as if it is happening to us again. We're living from the fear that's going on. And, um, and I think that's part of, to go back to what we were saying, like if, if you feel like, well, I should be healed.

10:23
I don't want to think about this again, then you miss out on that opportunity to sort of take a step back. It's almost like you're saying we should develop a relationship with that energy rather than suppressing it or thinking that we're going to do away with it. Just sort of develop a relationship with it and be okay with it and accepting of it, even if it is uncomfortable. Yeah, that's so true. And you work with a lot of couples, I'm assuming, in

10:51
Sometimes when one of them has an experience and the quick knee-jerk reaction is, but that's in the past and that's over and I just want to move on. And it's almost like you're building a wall instead of the boundary where you're like, listen, this is where I feel like is a line I don't want to cross and understanding it. A lot of people that I work with particularly don't want to revisit the past. And believe me, I don't like revisiting the past either.

11:20
And it takes a certain degree of distance for you to look back and say, oh, I can look at that as an adult or I can look at it maybe as an observer and see what happened. And a lot of times when I work with couples myself, I say, you don't have to go back, but we have to accept that that is a part of you. And that's part of the one of the seven steps is that we have to accept, which is the A and integrate it in our lives. It's part of you.

11:50
We don't want to deny it. We certainly, it happened, your feelings are valid and we don't have to tear open that bandaid and explore the wound, but we have to understand that this is now part of you and the way you can move through it will help you in the future with other relationships or other decisions you make or other careers. And I felt like that was where I needed to be when I finally decided that this

12:18
part of me, the shame that I experienced was really not going to go away. It just had to learn how to manage it. Yeah. And sometimes I tell people, I don't know if you would agree that the reason that we're talking about the past is to help you in your present day reality. It's not just to stir things up and make you feel bad. It's about understanding what's happening in these present moments. You know, for example, like if my wife asked me, uh, did you take the trash out?

12:47
And I get filled with this protective, this feeling of shame of like, feel terrible that I didn't take the trash out, but I don't want to actually feel that. then I get defensive or protective or focus on the way she's talking to me or something like that. And if I'm not super conscious, I believe that I'm in a conflict with my partner rather than being able to take a step back and say,

13:14
Why do I feel so much shame just because someone's asking me a question? Maybe there's something that happened to me in the past that is informing the meaning that I'm making up in this present moment or something like that. I totally agree. That's another great example. More like household example that probably a lot of people can relate to. The funny thing about all of this is probably somewhere in your past and not you specifically, but let's use your example.

13:43
Somebody shamed you as a kid for not taking out the trash. And the one thing I tell every client of mine is nobody's life has improved because they were shamed. And I don't know about you, I went to Catholic school, nuns totally shamed us all the time. It never improved our lives, it made us feel terrible.

14:04
And that's where we have guilt and humiliation and embarrassment, which is like the quadrant of bad feelings. So then later on, you're an adult man and your wife just flippantly just says, hey, honey, did you throw out the trash? And you're like, why did she say that to me like that? How dare she? And meanwhile, she has no idea what you're talking about. She was just saying, hey, did you just take out the trash? And so you're right. If you can step out of yourself and say, wait a minute, wait a minute.

14:33
I need to take out the trash. It's no big deal. I do it all the time, you know, and you when you can be able to step out of yourself and do that. Not only do you avoid an argument with your wife, which should probably have no idea what's going on with you, but you'll actually feel more empowered because you've allowed yourself to say, OK, I get what's going on here. I feel like I can definitely say, OK, honey, sorry.

15:03
I totally slipped my mind and then have a real reaction instead of saying, what do you mean? You have some nerve. Right, right. Yeah. I want to go back to something you said. I think this is so important and I want to make sure I understand. You're saying whether it's parents to their children or could be adult partners in relationship, there's nothing helpful about using shaming language toward another person. No, I don't see

15:32
there being any benefit to toxic shame. So a lot of people misconstrue guilt and shame. They always go hand in hand. let's go over this. Give everybody like a foundational understanding of that. Sure. So there's been a lot of work and research and you probably read it before, but the best example is the one that I read from a researcher called Tagme. And it is, guilt is I did something bad.

16:02
and I feel badly about it. It's a behavior, so it's an action. So I insult your t-shirt, it looks wrinkly or so, I don't know, I say something and you say, oh, I feel horrible. And then I feel horrible. Well, guilt could have a positive outcome because I could say, I'm sorry, Shane, I didn't mean that. I just meant, oh, it's a little wrinkle. And you say, no worries. And we get over it.

16:29
I learned something, I had a positive effect because I changed my behavior. So that is, I feel bad. Shame is I'm bad. It's identity. The problem with this is we try to use guilt solutions to shame's problems. And you can't because one is involving behavior and the other one is involving identity. So where is the identity coming from?

16:57
It's that voice in your head. And guess what? That voice is probably most always not your own. It was installed in you by either a parent, a teacher, a priest, a past lover, maybe a bad breakup, a divorce, a boss who fired you. And you didn't have the language at the time because you were traumatized or too young.

17:25
to say, no, no, no, that's not true. So you installed it, you allowed them to install that voice in your head. And every once in a while, when something happens, you hear the voice that puts you in a shame spiral. And the spiral is something bad happened. Well, that's because you are bad. So that's why bad things happen. So it's very hard to get out of that loop.

17:49
When we're stuck in those loops, we perseverate and we go on and on and on about, this is why bad things happen to me. I'm a bad person. I have bad luck. And it's all that really terrible ways we talk to ourselves. So guilt again, could be benefited from just action, but with shame and the identity, you have to understand to listen to the voice and say, wait a minute. So for example, I leave this interview today.

18:17
And the voice in my head says, you did a terrible job. I knew you were going to screw this up. You always do. Now the new, the new Frank Spinelli will say, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I remember the interview. I was there. Actually, we had a really good conversation. I thought it went really well. And so you have to discern what are the thoughts from the actual facts, just because the voice in your head tells you something doesn't mean it's a fact.

18:47
Right, right. Well, I'm thinking too, when you were talking about guilt, it can be much more healthy for the relationship and the interaction. In other words, if you give me feedback like, Shane, you stepped on my foot and that really hurt, then if I feel an appropriate level of guilt, it's like I feel bad for hurting you and it motivates me to apologize or...

19:16
to do something nice for you to say, my gosh, I'm sorry, can I get you a bag of ice or something like, you know, and it leads to some sort of connection and repair when I understand or when I can feel the guilt in a healthy way. Now, what I see in couples therapy sometimes is one partner says you stepped on my foot and the other partner goes into that kind of shame spiral.

19:43
where they're no longer focused on the experience of their partner, like helping them with their toe. They're like, oh my gosh, well, I'm a terrible person. I guess I can't do anything right. They're sort of like consumed in their own shame, which takes them away from a relational connection because they're just in the inside their own head. And like you're saying, they're making up meaning.

20:08
which may or may not be true. It's probably not true in this case. They're making up meaning like nobody would ever want to be with me. I'm a terrible person. Whatever it is that leads them away from the truth and leads them away from connection. And you know, the funny thing is that's a really another good example. But when we were talking about being shamed, so imagine like you're a little kid in school and your teacher says the way you talk to Emily was not nice. I want you to apologize. That's guilt.

20:38
and the positive outcome. The shame part is you bring little Frank up to the classroom to the front and tell everybody, see what he did? He's a bad kid. And so then later when you're in couples therapy with Shane, you said you hurt my toe and the thing remember, the person remembers what happened in school and says, yeah, I'm a bad person. I remember sister Catherine told me I was bad in front of the whole class.

21:05
So that's what I meant by saying nobody benefits from being shamed. They do benefit from understanding how their behavior impacted somebody, but just to shame somebody as being inherently bad is not going to have any beneficial aspect for them to grow and learn. Yeah, that's great. Building a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients.

21:36
That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentials within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment. Plus, when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform.

22:05
Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. You may have explained it, but I just wanted to make sure you said something like guilt solutions to shame's problems. You can't use guilt solutions to solve shame's problems because one is involving behavior. The other is involving identity.

22:35
So again, apologizing if you feel guilty is a great way to resolve an issue. However, with shame, you can apologize for being bad because you are bad. You have to tell yourself, that's not true. You're not a bad person. And oftentimes what works really well, which people have a hard time doing and you let me know from your experience, affirmations really work.

23:01
And I wrote in the book right off the bat, I think the first page of the introduction is if you can look at yourself in the bathroom mirror every morning without looking away, it's one of the most bravest things you can do. And if you can look at yourself every morning before you brush your teeth or wash your face and say, listen, this is hard. You're doing the best you can and I'm proud of you.

23:28
It really is a way of sinking into yourself and saying, you know what, I am doing a damn good job. I am trying. And yeah, I am proud of me because again, it's about the affirmation and reinforcing that you're not bad. That again was installed by somebody else who probably had their own issues, by the way. And they just wanted to push that onto you. you know, we were...

23:54
We were vulnerable at the time and we allowed that to happen, but we don't have to let it happen anymore. Yeah. And I mean, I would say that that is moving people into the truth, which is that every human being is inherently valuable and worthy. I mean, it's especially easy to imagine that when we're talking about little kids, you know, they're deserving of love, they're worthy, they're valuable, and everybody makes mistakes. And I think when

24:23
as we're a kid and we're going through life, if you have adults who are very shaming whenever you make mistakes, then that's where you start to take on this identity that's I'm less than the feeling that I'm not enough. or I need, know, I need to perform in a certain way in order to be deserving or worthy of love in the world. And that's where it's hard to hear feedback about mistakes and things like that.

24:50
Yeah, I was just thinking of something you hear often with children who have traumatic childhoods. It's the parents saying, look what you made me do. You know, how does a kid navigate through that? did something. I made my parent hit me or I made my parent yell at me. It's me. And again, it goes back to identity. I am a bad kid. And it takes a lot of work on your willingness to overcome that again.

25:21
One of the things that I talk about in the book is, is the C is confronting. You have to want to be able to confront the shame when it, when it occurs. I'm part of that is pausing and saying, okay, I feel shame right now. What's going on? Well, I'm feeling this feeling in my chest. Okay. Don't judge it. Just accept it. Stay, stay with it for 60 seconds and see how you feel. And just that process.

25:50
of allowing yourself to experiencing it and sit with it is the first step that you're developing a shame literacy that you can understand why this is happening before you go into, uh, this is what my mother used to say when she meant I'm a bad kid and I look what I made her do. Yeah. And that's really hard, right? When we're going into fight or flight and we just want to avoid the situate, avoid those feelings. Um, that's a skill.

26:19
I think that people have to practice kind of leaning into the discomfort and staying with it, staying present with it. know, you are absolutely right. It doesn't come when you are activated. In fact, it's impossible. Like when my manager was talking to me the first time, I immediately snapped. It was only upon reflection afterwards that I said, hmm, I shouldn't have done that. So what I suggest in the book is learn how to pause. So

26:48
I'm, you're talking to your best friend on the phone or you're talking to your friend or you're out. They finished speaking and you don't answer. You pause, you count two, three seconds, and then you answer. have to get into the habit of listening in, you know, processing it and then responding because I think a lot of us, especially me want to react, want to respond, want to answer. And so the only way to train your brain.

27:18
to say, pause, listen to what the person said and try to understand what is really, what they're really trying to say to you instead of just adding that layer of shame that you're so used to doing automatically. But yeah, I think that's a perfect example. You have to practice. I'm sure you've already been talking about this, but I'm looking at the, title of your book and I'm just wondering.

27:44
Why did you decide to call it shame compass? What does the shame compass mean? Well, you know, I was thinking about when I was staring in the mirror all those years ago and just saying, I just can't do this. And then I was thinking, why do I feel like I need to suppress shame? So again, here's another thing most people forget. And you probably know this, but you can't get rid of shame. Shame is an emotion.

28:14
It's like happiness, right? So it has a biological function. So can you suppress shame? Well, imagine shame is like a beach ball. Can you put it underwater? Yes. Does it take effort? Yes. But what happens? Somebody says something to you and you react and the beach ball comes up and it explodes. So we want to avoid the explosion.

28:39
Because you can't suppress it forever and you can't get rid of shame. It's like saying, stop being happy. It's not going to happen. So when I had that realization and I was looking in the mirror, I was thinking about leaning in and what is it pointing me towards? And I thought, what better way of providing some sort of metaphor than a framework? And I thought of the Compass framework and the Compass is actually a mnemonic for the seven stages. So C-O-M-P-A-S-S.

29:08
And that's where I developed it and was working on it and going through a systematic way from going from C all the way to S and as a way of developing how to confront, observe, map back to the source, process, accept, and then sustain through shame literacy. And then the last S is service, which I say in the book is optional, but I do believe it really helps. think.

29:38
When people get to a certain point in their life where they are really understanding the trauma that had happened to them, it's very important for them sometimes to share their story. So in sharing my story here, I hope maybe it'll help some of your listeners. And then in return, they can do the same to other people. And that way it's a form of service to help you.

30:03
speak your truth and better understand how it impacted you and speak from a place of distance so that you have some clarity. Well, yeah, what an incredible way to practice. I don't know if you would say confronting the shame or being comfortable with the shame, you know, talking about things that, uh, maybe would have caused you shame in the past, things that mistakes you've made.

30:28
and being able to open up and share it with other people so that they can learn from it and it can be helpful to them too. Well, I think that is the goal for a lot of folks. mean, not everybody's comfortable talking about themselves and certainly not a lot of people are comfortable sharing painful parts of their past. And that's why you and I have clients that come to us that hopefully will open up about that once they trust us. But there is a

30:58
part that made me realize not everybody's lucky enough to afford therapy or have access to therapy. And so sometimes picking up a book and being able to work through it on their own might help them or give them some sense of, you know, inner strength to really seek out help. Some people don't even do that. You know, oftentimes when I'm on meetings,

31:25
At Reframe, we have a lot of community meetings and there are hundreds of people and many of them don't even turn on their cameras or have their name. You'll see a Zoom user or something. There is such an intense amount of shame just being present. And so whenever I see somebody new turn on their camera or raise their hand to speak, I'm thinking, this is what we...

31:54
do our work for us so that they can feel a little bit more connected to a bigger community and feel less isolated, which we know is the antidote for shame. It's funny, you know, even in the therapist world, I feel like I've been in so many environments where a group of, it's a group of therapists and people don't want to ask a question because they don't want to look like they don't know what they're doing.

32:20
You know, it makes sense. All of us have that desire to look like we have it together in the world or to look like we are enough, I would say. no, definitely. What I hear most often is I'm too much. I'm not enough. I'm broken. Those are the terms you hear that people say, and they they believe it. They believe it wholeheartedly, like as if they're beyond repair.

32:50
And you can't just tell somebody that's not true, you you're not broken. No, they have to want to believe that. And part of that process is to understand what was the initial insult, what happened to them that made them believe this. And again, it goes back to the end, the mapping it. What was the original source of this? And again, it could be a mom, a dad, and I don't want to pick on parents. It could be anybody.

33:18
You don't really know what the source is and oftentimes, you know, the common denominator is yes, it probably most likely was a parent or a teacher or a priest or none, you know, or anybody in your childhood that had a real direct impact. A lot of times it's a bully. You know, a lot of adults are still very traumatized by their childhood bully because

33:46
They felt so vulnerable and so helpless to this person that eventually they just accepted what that person said about them as the truth when we know it wasn't. think it's good to, it's sort of like, um, rightful assignment of responsibility. In other words, like your parents may have had the best of intentions. They may have been trying to do, they may have loved you and cared about you and been trying to do a really good job to, to raise you, but

34:14
It's not about blaming them or talking bad about them, but it's about when we're a little kid and we're going through those situations. Let's say you're getting bullied at school. It's really important that you feel safe to go home and talk to your parents about that. And if your parents didn't have those kind of skills to make you feel like it was safe to be open and talk it through and they could support you and help you with that, then there's going to be an impact.

34:42
And as a kid, we make, I think what we make up is that we are the problem or there's something wrong with us or that we need to keep it to ourselves and figure it out for ourselves or something or suppress these things. And the rightful assignment of responsibility is like, no, you were just a little kid. Like, you know, your parents should have created an environment where it felt safe to do that. And again, that doesn't mean they're bad. It just means, you know, there are specific things about every

35:10
situation that a kid might grow up in that are challenging and difficult and you don't fully get what you need probably. you know the other part to that is your parents were only a product of their parents. Right. So if you had poor parenting your parents probably didn't learn the skills you're talking about and that isn't their fault but it doesn't help you.

35:36
You know, perhaps they didn't create a safe environment for you when you came home and indicated you were being bullied and they just told you to toughen up or get over it. Well, yeah, did they do a poor job? Probably. But what did they have to deal with? Who was their role model? And you have to go back. And oftentimes when you talk to people who felt extremely traumatized by their parents, they often had parents who are often abused.

36:02
Um, it's very common. see generational abuse or generational, uh, alcohol abuse, but particularly, or physical abuse or whatever, or even growing up with people whose parents, the father beat the mother and you'll go back and say, but his father beat them. know, so it's really very layered. And, you know, again, like you said, we're not assigning blame. We're trying to just understand.

36:31
the playing field so that we can just better inform you of why you're making certain decisions or why you feel certain ways and try to help alleviate the guilt and the shame you carry because you feel like whatever your parents did to you or whatever anyone did to you when you were younger is your fault. Yeah, and I love the compass acronym, the steps that you kind of mapped out there.

36:59
Cause I mean, to me, like it's just such a helpful way to move into compassion for yourself. It's like, there's some reason why it makes sense that you're struggling in the way that you are in the present and like going through this compass, each of the steps like really helps you gain insight about why that might be true or what it's coming from. Yeah. Self-compassion to me is one of the big, uh, something that I talk about all the time and

37:29
You know, we think it's just being nice. It's not there. There's really neuroscience to back it up. And again, going back and not judging yourself, just trying to understand like you're trying the best you can. And even when people or clients come to me and say, you know, I drank too much last night and I know I was going to try not to, or I over-aid or whatever it is that they're clinging to, we say it's okay.

37:58
You know, this is a process, but I try to redirect them and say, but you came back, you showed up for your appointment, you're here, you didn't continue the drinking or the eating or whatever it was. And I think once they realize that the relationship we have is not going to mirror the relationship they've had with the person who probably traumatized them, then they feel like it's a safe space, which is, wait,

38:27
Ultimately, we hope to do, we're trying to create safe spaces for people to feel comfortable to be vulnerable, because that's what we want, because that's really where the work happens. But it's really interesting, I think, for me, especially in this space to see people when it clicks, because they've been practicing these behaviors for so long, they don't see it, or they don't see a way out of the behavior that they've already been using for so long.

38:56
Yeah. And I'd love it if you could speak a little bit to how this shows up in relationships where, you know, you're, dealing possibly or probably with two people's shame responses as they're interacting with each other that come from different things that, um, you know, can be very, and I think, um, people we care about the most are the ones who can bring out the, these aspects of us the most as well.

39:26
Well, I mean, if you're up for it, let's have a little like fun. Yeah. So I mean, I'm going to put you on the spot, it's okay. Wrong answer. So, you know, we've talked a lot about childhood trauma, but like I said, you can be an adult and experience trauma. So can you think of the number one reason why women feel shame? Adult women feel shame. Take a guess. Well, I'm thinking about the way that women are socialized.

39:54
is to believe that they should take care of everyone else's feelings. So if somebody else isn't happy, like if their partner or their kids aren't happy or things aren't going well, then they feel ashamed, like they're not doing enough or something like that. Well, I'm going to that's close. think that's close. So women feel well, the number one reason women feel shame is their bodies, whether they're whether they think they're overweight, underweight, too tall, too short.

40:24
Or, which I was surprised at, they feel that they're old and they feel that they've become invisible and that people don't see them anymore. So that's number one. Number two is that, like sort of what you were alluding to, their ability to be mothers, to nurture. And they have intense shame about whether they're a single mom or a stay at home mom or a working mom.

40:51
And then, which is also something I did not realize, is their inability to conceive. So infertility shame, there's a tremendous amount of shame with that. then third is like the idea of having it all. And then sexuality, saying what they want during sex with their partner brings them shame because they don't want to be perceived as being slutty or in that vein.

41:20
Men, interestingly, number one is sexual performance. Feel a lot of shame about whether or not they're satisfying their partner, whether or not they're equipped to satisfy their partner. And then one of the other big ones for men is being able to take care of their families, feeling like they can provide, feeling intense shame about whether or not their spouse has to work to help.

41:50
And then I thought this was really interesting because this is the opposite of the sexuality component. But for men, it's expressing desires to be vulnerable or submissive during sex. So when you think about those three things on either side, men and women, and then you talk about why couples may be not seeing eye to eye, these are really tough issues.

42:20
for them to have to express maybe in therapy or just to each other. Imagine saying to somebody, I would like to be more vulnerable in the bedroom. I mean, that would be hard for a lot of men to say. And in fact, I was working with a couple recently where the woman had intense shame about former partners who broke up with her. She just thought there was something wrong with her.

42:49
and she's engaged and she just, he thought something was wrong with the relationship. They had just gotten engaged and there was intense issues and they came together. And do you know what it was? He just wanted to be able to talk about his fantasies, which involved another man. And once she heard this, he was totally like, Oh, that's all it is. And I thought to myself, wow, that was really interesting.

43:17
So it's really just being able to be vulnerable with one another and feel safe in that capacity to express what you're thinking. But certainly when we think about shame, the ones that I just described bring are the most common that we see time and again with different couples, especially when you look at men and women. Yeah. I find it to be really interesting that the things that we build up in our mind

43:45
as being important, like, oh, what is my partner going to think about this? Or what are my friends going to think about this or other people? And a lot of times, like, people have way more acceptance than we think they will about whatever it is, or it's not a big deal to them. Yeah, I mean, I could imagine, like, especially when it comes to sex with partners that have been together for a long time, any discussion about

44:11
doing something differently must bring up so many feelings of, what if I bring this up? They're going to think I don't like what we've been doing or, you know, there's so much guilt and shame that gets attached to it. And you have to remind people, well, let's just suggest what if you did say something and he doesn't agree or she doesn't agree? What would we do then? It's going through the process and you probably have to deal with this a lot as well, but

44:39
You know when you get to a point with a client or a patient where they start to push back with you and they maybe get mad and you know it's transference or something and then they apologize and they go, what do you think? I go, I think that was great. I think that's a breakthrough. When you trust me enough to push back, that's what we want. That's where really the work begins. So when you see couples, especially

45:08
start saying things and then the other one's like, oh, okay, that's all you had to say. You think, oh, we think of it as being so simple, but it is really, uh, it brings up a lot of intense feelings of fear. don't want to over psychoanalyze, but I feel like there is, I feel like when it comes to sex, there is so much meaning that people make up about that. Like the psych, the psychological stuff, the emotional stuff, like

45:38
You know, what does it mean to ask for what I want? What does it mean to if my partner doesn't want the same thing as I do? What does it mean about me if my partner isn't doing certain things? What does it mean? You know, all these different things that are going on inside each of our heads that our partner doesn't even realize are going on. Exactly. And you know, it's really hard, especially for couples to feel like you could have a wonderful relationship.

46:07
be very in love, have children, and still feel there are things that you just can't talk about because of whatever childhood or whatever past experience that you feel makes you feel shame. And that's why I felt so often that shame is something so universal that we just don't talk about it. We talk about it in relationship to something you need to get over or suppress. And I was saying,

46:33
probably not at all. It's probably something we need to talk about more, like having no shame in your game and just feeling empowered by it. Yeah. And I'm thinking too, I think people have a hard time because they're afraid they'll, they'll hurt their partner's feelings. You know, I don't want to say what I really want because it'll make my partner upset or hurt their feelings, which

46:57
is maybe a different conversation, but, you know, that can make things. I think people are often coming from a good place, even that even if they're struggling. Well, that's why they have you. Right. Right. Right. Save space where you could say, trust me, you could say whatever you want. And we're just going to, you know, work through this. And I think that's why people respond so well to having therapists or coaches.

47:23
I think they just feel like I'm here as an advocate for you when no one's judging you. And yeah, I mean, sex is a touchy topic. You know, especially for people who feel like they would like their needs met in a different way. Ooh, yeah. It could be very, uh, touchy. Well, yeah. And there's so much, uh, messages in our, so many messages in our society. So, so many ways in which we're socialized to

47:52
that talking about sex is not a good thing, that I think people are influenced by. Again, just another thing to say to help people have compassion. It makes sense that it's challenging for that in particular. I'm really in awe when I meet couples who are very open that they could talk about anything. I'm thinking, wow, that's great. I wish I met your parents because I can't imagine how they raised you, but that's amazing.

48:18
Yeah, I feel like it's changing in a positive direction. I don't know if you've seen this as well. Like the younger generations just tend to be able to have a more compassionate way of talking about things or be able to express their emotions in a respectful way. I'm hoping that it's changing in a positive way on a societal level. Yeah, I don't have kids, but I definitely, my sister has four and

48:48
There's definitely a different way of looking at things. I can certainly tell you that even just their outlooks on sex on TV or violence is different. Like I look back to some of the movies and TV shows I watched as a kid and I'm like, you could never have this on TV right now. I mean, it was just really violent or gratuitous or the way we spoke to women. Right. Yeah. You'd never get away with that right now. And I think that

49:15
maybe perhaps the tide is changing that people are just much more respectful of one another when it comes to certain roles. Like, you know, you would never treat somebody like that. You try to treat them with respect. And I appreciate that. Certainly. I noticed the younger generation sees alcohol very differently. Yeah. Right. noticed that too. Gen Zers have a very different outlook on alcohol and perhaps

49:41
It's related to the fact that they're looking at their parents or their grandparents and saying, well, that's not healthy. know, I mean, certainly the tide has changed when I was young, you know, one or two glasses of wine was considered healthy. mean, I grew up with Italian parents, but now the World Health Organization is like, no, zero alcohol is healthy.

50:04
And so I think a lot of Gen Zers are adopting that and saying, you know, I'm really concerned about what I'm putting into my body. mean, look, no one carries a plastic water bottle anymore. Everybody is like trying to be mindful of the environment. So I definitely think when I see younger people, I'm like, huh, things are really changing. Hopefully, the better. Yeah, hopefully. Well, this has been super helpful. Any other final thoughts as we start to wrap it up here?

50:32
No, this is really great. And again, I want to thank you for having me on your show to talk about my book. Yeah, definitely. Why don't you say the name of your book one more time and your website so everybody can find it. Yeah. The name of the book is The Shame Compass, a radical framework for trauma healing and self acceptance. And you can get it at my website at frankspanelli.com or anywhere books are sold online or in bookstores. Great.

51:01
Yeah. And thank you so much, Frank. This is a great conversation. Yeah. Thank you. It was a pleasure meeting you. Yeah, you too. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Burkle and this is the couple's therapist couch.

51:29
podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye everybody.