296: How to Apologize with Harriet Lerner

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Harriet Lerner about how to apologize. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 296: How to Apologize with Harriet Lerner

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In this episode, Shane talks with Harriet Lerner about how to apologize. Harriet is one of the most respected voices in the psychology of women, and the “how-tos” of navigating the swamps and quicksands of difficult relationships. She is the author of 12 books published in 35 languages. Hear why apologies are so important, the ways people ruin their apologies, what a good apology requires of us, the differences in how men & women apologize, and how to navigate a client who refuses to apologize.

Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• The most common way people ruin apologies
• Why it's harder to apologize when you don't feel valued
• Defensiveness is universal and automatic, but it's the enemy of apology, listening, and connection
• You can apologize for what you did, never for who you are
• Why men avoid apologizing

 

 

Show Notes

• 296: How to Apologize with Harriet Lerner
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [0:31] Welcome to the show Harriet Lerner, psychologist and author of Why Won't You Apologize
• [1:28] About the book: the power of the heartfelt apology, bad apologies, and the trap of misguided forgiveness
• [3:22] The terrible apology that pushed Harriet to write the book
• [4:49] Why apologies matter to both parties
• [5:46] What a good apology actually does
• [7:41] How even good relationships erode when a needed apology never comes
• [8:39] The most common way people ruin apologies
• [9:37] The second way apologies fail is focusing on the other person's reaction instead of your own behavior
• [10:33] Why continuing the behavior you just apologized for, and using "I'm sorry" to end the conversation are apology killers
• [11:42] Why real apologies for serious betrayals are a long-distance run, not a single moment
• [13:11] The hurt party doesn't just want to hear the words, they want to feel it
• [14:34] Why listening matters more than talking and why we resist it
• [15:43] What the betrayed partner really needs after an affair: availability, not just more sorrys
• [16:41] Why it shouldn't only be the hurt party's job to bring up the betrayal
• [17:40] Defensiveness is universal and automatic, but it's the enemy of apology, listening, and connection
• [18:37] How a grocery trip became a character attack, and what that illustrates about all couples
• [21:32] Why we connect criticism to character and how shame makes apology feel impossible
• [22:29] Why it's harder to apologize when you don't feel valued
• [23:27] Leaping from a specific fact to "you always" and "what's wrong with you"
• [24:27] You can apologize for what you did, never for who you are
• [21:49] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [26:54] Why being raised male is the biggest risk factor for under-apologizing
• [27:52] How women are socialized into reflexive sorrys that diminish authority and irritate friends
• [29:20] When it comes to the apologies that really matter, we all struggle equally
• [30:15] Why men avoid apologizing
• [33:13] Emotional flooding and the pursuer-distancer pattern 
• [34:41] Why changing one person's pattern can shift the whole dynamic, even without the other partner in the room
• [36:42] What the hurt party needs to understand about non-apologizers
• [38:10] Why those who caused the most harm are often least able to apologize
• [40:34] The best reason to confront someone
• [42:04] Love and accountability are separate 
• [43:31] We strengthen relationships one apology at a time
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

  

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This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

 

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
When it comes to real apologies, the apologies that matter, we all have a problem with that.

00:14
Welcome to the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now your host, Shane Burkle.

00:31
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Couples Therapist's Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

01:00
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Today, I'm extremely excited to share with you an interview that I did with Harriet Lerner, who is a psychologist who's played a major role in our understanding of the psychology of women and families. Her scholarly publications and bestselling books, starting with The Dance of Anger,

01:28
have helped millions of people to navigate the swamps and quicksands of difficult relationships with clarity, courage, and joyous conviction. Now she's shifted her research attention to the bewildering dynamics of apologies and forgiveness. In her latest book, Why Won't You Apologize, she explores the power of the heartfelt apology and the challenge of healing disconnections when I'm sorry just isn't enough.

01:57
She also addresses the excruciating pain of the hurt party who has received a bad apology or none at all and explains how our misguided notions of forgiveness may deepen the injury. And that's what we talk about in the interview today, all about apologies and her new book. So I definitely recommend going to get her book right away. And I'll put that in the show notes.

02:26
Yeah, just enjoy the interview and check the show notes for other related resources to find out more. I hope you enjoy it. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Couple Therapist Couch. This is Shane Burkle, and I'm very excited to welcome Harriet Lerner, author of 12 books, including the New York Times bestseller, The Dance of Anger. Hi, Harriet. Welcome to the show. I'm glad to be here. Well, you have a new book out called Why Won't You Apologize?

02:55
healing big betrayals and everyday hurts. And apologizing is what we're gonna be talking about today. And I wanted to let the audience know too that you have a TED Talk about apologizing, which I think is a really great thing that people should go check out right away. And I'll make sure there's a link to that in the show notes as well. But Harriet, maybe you can start by telling us a little bit about why you decided to write this book.

03:22
when i would tell people that i was writing a book called why won't you apologize people would rolled their eyes like the subject of apology with really boring but in fact it's incredibly important where all connected we are grew up we all unwittingly hurt others justice where hurt by them so the need to give in receipt of policies is with that until our very last breath

03:51
And when done right, apologies can be deeply healing. And when they're absent or done wrong, they can compromise the relationship or even end it. it's a really important topic. And what actually got me to sit down and write, because I had been studying apologies for many years, was I got a really awful apology, one that just left me feeling worse.

04:20
and no apology at all and that somehow motivated me to hit the computer and start writing the book. Yeah and I have to admit to the audience that I just finished reading the book and I love all the different types of examples that you give because there are so many different types of apologies depending on not only your relationship to the person but also the gravity of

04:49
whatever it is that you're apologizing for and so many other factors that you bring into it. But I know that... Right, right. And also for the hurt party as well, because sometimes we don't get an apology and it's not a big deal. And at other times, it's absolutely excruciating, just excruciating that the other person can't get it or take responsibility or confirm our...

05:18
reality. you know, it's important both from the perspective of the one that has to give the apology and also, you know, for us when we are the hurt party or the offended party. Yeah, and I know as couples therapists, as many of the listeners are, we see it all the time in the interactions between partners. But can you go a little bit more into

05:46
why is apologizing so important? Well, it's a gift to the other person, it's a gift to the self, it's a gift to the relationship. It is one of the greatest gifts that we can offer to someone who matters to us. The apology can allow the hurt party to feel safe and soothed in the relationship and they know

06:15
that we care about their feelings and that we're capable of taking responsibility. And our apology validates the hurt party's reality. It's saying, yes, I get it. I was wrong. I screwed up. I'm going to think about that. And less obvious, but equally as important, the apology is a gift to our own self because

06:43
Our self-respect, our level of maturity and integrity rests squarely on our ability to see ourselves objectively and to take a clear-eyed look at the way our behavior affects others. So the good apology earns us self-respect and it also earns us respect in the eyes of others. Although

07:11
we may fear the opposite. People fear that if they especially men if they apologize they will look weak or as if they lost something but in fact the opposite is true. So it's really important. Yeah and for the betrayed partner to feel that validation that you're talking about to feel understood or like the other person gets

07:41
what happened because otherwise I think they feel sort of overwhelmed that maybe they're crazy or something. Right and even a good relationship suffers when we don't get the apology that we need or deserve. It sort of can run like a little current of disconnection even underneath a good relationship when the other person

08:11
and refuses to get it or can't get it. Now, I've seen a lot in my work where people attempt to apologize or even maybe think they're apologizing, but can you share with us some of the ways that people ruin their apologies? Yes, because we so often muck it up even when we're not intending to.

08:39
common way that we ruin an apology is with the word but. You know, I'm sorry I forgot to call on your birthday, but I was flooded with work. A million things fell through the cracks. That little word but almost always signals a rationalization, an excuse, a criticism. It doesn't matter if what you say after the but is true.

09:07
The butt makes your apology false. So get your butt out of your apology. That's rule number one. And the other very common way we muck it up, which is so important, is we focus on the other person's reactions rather than our own behavior. For example, it's not an apology to say,

09:37
I'm sorry that the joke that I made at the meeting made you upset. I'm sorry if it came across as racist or sexist. I didn't mean that. I'm sorry that it made you angry. That's not an apology. An apology would be the joke that I told at the meeting wasn't sensitive. It was out of line. I apologize and I won't do it again. So a true

10:04
Apology focuses on what you said or did. Period. And then, of course, an apology is obviously empty if we apologize with a grand flourish, but we continue the very behavior that we're apologizing for. And finally, in a...

10:33
Apology is not really an apology if we use it as a quick way to get out of a conversation. We don't want to listen anymore. So for example, someone said in my consulting room recently, the husband said, I said that I was sorry 10 times for the affair. So why do you keep bringing it up? Well, you know.

11:03
It may need another conversation. So I'm sorry, shouldn't be a way to get out of listening to what we don't want to hear when the heard party has more to tell us. So those are some of the common ways that we muck it up. That's really helpful. That's great. So what does a good apology require of us?

11:32
And how is that different based on the level of the betrayal in the situation?

11:42
Well, it's always easier to apologize for a small thing and it doesn't require that much. So for example, if you spill red wine on your friend's carpet, you're automatically going to say a heartfelt, Oh my God, you know, I'm so sorry and please let me pay the cleaning bill. But when it's more serious, it.

12:12
requires a lot more from us. And to apologize for a really serious hurt or betrayal is more of a long distance run. And I think the hardest thing that it requires from us because we're wired for defensiveness is that a good apology for

12:41
something serious requires us to sit on the hot seat and really listen to the other person's anger and pain and put our defensiveness aside and listen to really try to get it because as we were talking about earlier, Shane, it's not just the words.

13:11
I'm sorry that heal the injury. The hurt party wants us to really get it, to really validate and care about their feelings and to carry some of the pain that we've caused them to feel. So, you know, if I'm really upset about something, I don't want to hear my husband just disabled, I'm sorry and move on. want him

13:39
to be able to convey in his apology, yes, I get it. I screwed up, I was wrong, your feelings make sense. I want you to know this isn't gonna happen. Again, I want you to know that what you're telling me won't slip out of my head. I'm gonna be thinking about this. So to give that kind of apology, that requires

14:09
us to listen without defensiveness. No apology will have meaning if we don't listen carefully to the hurt party's anger and pain. And that is really hard because listening is not a very sexy subject.

14:34
And people are much more motivated to improve their talking skills than their listening skills. And that's really interesting because it's listening. It's how well we listen that really determines how all our relationships go. Not that we're super duper talkers. Yeah. I like

15:03
that idea that you mentioned that we're wired for defensiveness and, you know, what is, can you say a little bit more about what's going on there? You know, to use the example that you mentioned, because I think this is something that we see in our couples therapy offices a lot, which is, you know, there's an affair partner and then the betrayed partner. And what's going on for the affair partner that they have like such a,

15:32
trigger or a defensive response to the trade partner wanting ongoing apologies or bringing it into the conversation and things like that.

15:43
What the betrayed party wants is not endless, you know, more apologies, more sorry. They want the person who had the affair to really be available to listen to their feelings because even when one conversation is over and the party who had the affair feels

16:13
that everything has been resolved, more will come up. So they want to really be listened to and they want the person who betrayed them and had the affair to carry some of the pain. They want the person who had the affair to be able to initiate a conversation and say,

16:41
you know how are you doing with it how are you doing with it now and i want you to know that i've been thinking about what i did and the harm i did to you and the relationship and you know it's interesting because when someone has been betrayed we always leave it to the hurt party to keep bringing it up if it's only their job you know

17:10
to bring up the betrayal and it becomes their job because we leave them alone with it but it shouldn't be just their job to initiate the conversation. And you know in terms of defensiveness Shane, we are wired for defensiveness even around small things. Defensiveness is automatic, it's universal and it's the arch enemy of listening, it's the arch enemy of connection.

17:40
It's the art and me of giving a good apology. And we're wired for reactivity. So the combination of defensive and reactivity in couples especially, for example, you mentioned my Ted talk where I give that story about my husband Steve coming home with

18:08
too many ripe bananas. Yeah, I love that. And you know, it's a great example of how we can just go from zero to a hundred over our defensiveness about any stupid thing. I'm wondering if I should tell that story. What do you think? Sure, yeah, yeah, please. Well, here's my banana story, because it's

18:37
illustrative of what happens, know, can happen in any couple. So my husband Steve comes home from grocery shopping and he brings home five totally ripe bananas, you know, the same level of ripeness. And I immediately demanded an apology because we're not big banana eaters and no one bakes banana bread and we have talked about this banana thing.

19:06
before. So I was having a low self-esteem day, I was in a bad mood, so I went at him like a trial attorney when he didn't immediately apologize. It was sort of, how can you do this knowing that three bananas are going to end up in the compost bin? And what kind of person, like what kind of person lets

19:36
food rot in a world where people go hungry. And then I ended with that most supportive of all statements. What's wrong with you? I said to him, by the way, what's wrong with you are the four words guaranteed to drive any conversation downhill. Steve got defensive. Surprise, surprise.

20:04
and told me that I could do the shopping myself if I'm going to criticize how he did it. And then I argued back and stormed out of the room because why was I suddenly the bad guy? I would never buy five ripe bananas at the same level of ripeness. And so it went, you know, and of course banana shopping is not a life and death issue, but the way that we can

20:33
have that level of defensiveness and reactivity, again, you know, we are wired for it when we're anxious. So I love my banana story because it's just a great example of how it can go, especially in couples where, you know, when people have been married, they don't check themselves very well. And, you know, we can treat our

21:03
dry cleaners with better than we treat our partners. So that's me on a really bad day. Thank you so much for sharing that story. And one thing that I think that I was thinking about is that you are, and we all do it, I think it's good to use examples like buying bananas or washing the dishes or something like that because what happens is we're at

21:32
attacking the morality or we're attacking the character of that person or we may not eat like so let's say that I say something or my wife says something to me like oh there's a lot of dirty dishes in the thing from when you were here last night you know and I might immediately feel like how could she accuse me of being a bad person when

22:00
She didn't say anything like that, but I think the defensiveness might be stemming from the fact that I'm connecting it to my character, or if I'm being asked to apologize for something, that I'm admitting that I'm less of a person or something like that. Exactly, and also one very common defensive response that I think is a little more common in men is why is she making such a big deal about the dishes in the sink?

22:29
when I do so many things for the family. I do so many things. So it's also hard to apologize if we don't feel appreciated and valued for the things that we do do. That's another piece of it. In the case of my banana story, Shane, I actually did leap.

22:59
from the facts, the facts being that buying five ripe bananas like that means three of them are going to end up in the compost bin, that's the fact. But I left from that to questioning what sort of person was he? What kind of person doesn't care about starving people in the world and waste food? And that is shaming. Often when we want an apology,

23:27
we may overdo it, I mean the way I did, and just leap from a simple fact, like you didn't do the dishes last night and that was your job and you didn't do it, we leap to a globalized shaming. You always do this shame, like you say you're gonna do something, you don't do it, I can't count on you. And once we move into that kind of exaggerated,

23:57
globalizing, impossible for the other person to apologize because people won't apologize if they feel over accused. And also, we can apologize for a specific thing we've done, but we can't apologize for who we are if someone is shaming us. that reminds me of one of my favorite peanuts cartoon.

24:27
where is it Lucy? Yeah, Lucy is behind her five cents psychiatry booth and she says to Charlie Brown, she says, the trouble with you Charlie Brown is that you're you. And Charlie Brown says, well, what am I supposed to do with that? And Lucy says,

24:55
Well, I just diagnosed the problem. I don't give solutions. that, when we're shamed, when we're labeled, whatever it is we're called toxic mothers or all of the labels that we give people, including diagnoses, are not useful because again, we can apologize.

25:23
for what we do, but we cannot apologize for who we are. And we can't take in accusations that are going to flip us into an identity of worthlessness or shame. Nobody can do that. Building a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients.

25:52
That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment. Plus, when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform.

26:22
Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. You've mentioned a couple of times, a couple of things that are more difficult for men. And I'm just wondering if you could say, I'm sure we could talk for hours about this, but I'm wondering if you could give the brief overview of some of the differences between men and women and their ability to apologize.

26:54
The research indicates in every society where this has been studied that the biggest risk factor for being an under-apologizer is being born, well, or rather raised male. And the biggest risk factor for being an over-apologizer is being raised female.

27:22
and that makes a certain amount of sense women in my generation were raised to feel guilty and apologetic for everything you know guilty for leaving our work for children and guilty for leaving our children for work and guilty if we didn't work and guilty if we didn't have children and guilty about feeling guilty because guilt was bad for children etc and so many women are in the habit of this sort of

27:52
endless string of useless sorrys. Like a friend of mine in a restaurant recently, oh I'm sorry, did you want to sit here? Oh I'm sorry, you were looking at that menu. Oh I'm so sorry, I interrupted you, I didn't mean to interrupt you. So some of us women really do over apologize as if we went to miss

28:21
manners, apoligies, finishing school. If you're an over-apologizer, it's good to it down. Not only because it diminishes your authority in the workplace, but over-apologizing interrupts the normal flow of conversation and it will irritate your friends.

28:50
So if you have forgotten to return your friend's Tupperware, you don't have to apologize numerous times as if you've run over her kitten. But even though women have that, sometimes it's just like an automatic tick that's left over like a bad habit. But when it comes to real apologies,

29:20
the apologies that matter, we all have a problem with that. mean, in the end, humans, on most days, I believe that humans are more alike than different. So it's hard, it's challenging for all of us. Yeah, well, and I like the way that you put it, which is if you are raised male or raised female,

29:48
meaning that we're socialized this way. I don't think that we're necessarily born so different, but we are socialized that way. And it's helpful to understand how that works in our relationships. Can you say a little bit about the apology style or styles of men in general? I think men are getting

30:15
better at apologizing than I think that our very definitions of masculinity do shame men for anything that's considered weak or vulnerable and apologizing is often seen as weak. There is a vulnerability in apologizing because we never know

30:45
an apology will be received or accepted and especially when men are married, taking marriage or couples for an example, a lot of men tell me when I was doing the research that they experienced their wives is very critical and the men would say something like,

31:11
I really don't want to apologize because when I apologize, it just releases a whole new string of criticisms. Or the husband would say, you know, my wife is so critical and blames me for everything. And I feel when I apologize, like I'm putting my head on the chopping block and I'm saying that I'm the problem and I'm not the whole problem. And I think I hear that more

31:41
commonly from men. So I think it's a combination that men are taught to avoid anything they consider weak or vulnerable even though apologizing in fact is a strain. And also if they feel locked into a relationship where they feel more criticized

32:10
than valued, it's extremely difficult to apologize.

32:17
Yeah, and you said something earlier that made me think about how part of that socialization, I think, makes men really, really bad at owning their emotions or even being aware of what they're feeling a lot of the time. And their partner has probably experienced that over years and years of time. And so that might be what plays into that as well when they...

32:43
if a male partner finally does apologize and their partner is overly... It's not just about that moment, it's about the last 20 years that they've been together. Right. So she may then have a flood of further complaints that come up. And I think the issue of men having more difficulty

33:13
staying with their emotions that men will also when they can articulate it tell me that they feel flooded, say their wife begins to criticize them and the wife wants an apology but he's walked in the door and the wife approaches him in this sort of ratatatat way as he experiences it and he

33:42
feels just sort of physiologically flooded and shuts down or stonewalls, which isn't helpful. And then you get into a pursuer-distancer pattern where the more he doesn't listen well and isn't present, the more of course she pursues. And then the more she pursues, the more he sort of distances and shuts down. So you get...

34:12
that dance going. Yeah, yeah, and I think that's such a wonderful thing about being able to work with both partners together in couples therapy that you have such a another level of understanding that they can reach with each other or maybe more quickly because they're right there being able to be guided by the therapist to have that understanding with each other.

34:41
Right and I would add to that as a therapist, I often will work with one person alone because if I can get one person to change a pattern, if I can get the pursuer to change that pursuer distance or pattern or I can get the over function or overdoer to change an over functioning pattern then the old dance

35:08
can't continue as usual. So all of my books, beginning with The Dance of Anger, as well as my book Marriage Rules or Why Won't You Apologize, is very effective for one person. So I would add that to what you're saying, to the benefits of having the couple there, that one person

35:38
when they change their steps in an old pattern can actually make a very big difference. Even a small change can make a very big difference if one person really stays with it. Yeah, that's such a good point. Thank you for saying that. part of the ideas of, think, family therapy historically, if you can change one part of the system, you can have an impact on the rest of the family.

36:08
Right. So, well, I want to be mindful of the time. There's one more thing I was thinking about. I think this was in your book. when I was reading it, I was thinking about people in my own life who I have this characteristic of them. there are certain people who seem like they just never apologize or who don't listen to our feelings or give us an apology that we want.

36:37
Can you say anything about what's going on with that?

36:42
Well, it is true that some people will never apologize. And I think it's important for the hurt party to understand that, that they could read my book 10 times and they could present their hurt feelings in the best way possible. And as painful as it is, they're never going to get the validation that they need and deserve.

37:12
And people learn this the hard way because sometimes they, people I work with in therapy, want to open up a conversation with the parent who did some serious harm, whether it's recently or decades ago and they bring it up in the best way possible and they just get a terribly defensive response and feel

37:40
re-traumatized again. So it's important to understand that some people will never apologize and the greater the harm that was done to you, the less likely that the apology will ever be forthcoming. Because in order for a person to really give a heartfelt apology,

38:10
for a serious offense, that person has to have a strong, solid platform of self-worth to stand on. And from that higher platform of self-worth, that higher vantage point, the person who hurt you can look out at their bad behavior. And they can avoid

38:40
apologize, they can let themselves really get it because they're able to see their mistakes as part of a much larger complex and ever-changing picture of who they are as a human being. But some people, and especially those who have really hurt you in a serious way,

39:07
They stand on a small rickety platform of self-worth and they're unable to own up to the hurt they've caused. They can't get it because doing so would threaten to flip them into an identity of worthlessness and shame. The non-apologizer walks on a tightrope of

39:37
defensiveness above a huge cannon of low self-esteem. So it's not for example that your mother or your father doesn't love you, that they did that terrible thing and they can't now get that. It has nothing to do with love.

40:05
It has to do with how much self-worth they're able to draw upon. And we can't bestow self-worth on anybody else. That's not our job. So I think what's very important to think about if you want to confront someone or you want to open up a conversation about something that really

40:34
really hurt you, that the best reason to open that conversation is that if you feel, if you believe that you need to do that for yourself, that that's the ground you want to stand on, that you need to hear the sound of your own voice saying out loud what you know to be true. And you'll be in the best position to do that.

41:05
If you don't need, I mean of course we want the validation and the apology from the other person but it's best if we don't need it because the more serious the harm the more likely that that validation and recognition will not be coming, it won't be available.

41:33
I really appreciate your book and that's such a beautiful part of the work that you described and some of the examples in there is helping that hurt partner or the partner who deserves an apology to work through that reality that whether or not they get that apology has nothing to do with their value and their worthiness as a human being that they, we can't depend on someone else.

42:04
for our own sense of self-esteem or well-being. And so I really, really appreciate that about your work. And I think it's such an important part of it. Right. And I think that it's very important for people to understand, as I just said, that it's not about how much they love us. I have worked with parents who have done terrible things.

42:33
And they love their children. But when people, as we were talking about earlier, people will not take responsibility or orient to reality if doing so is going to flip them into an identity of shame and worthlessness. So... Yeah, that's great.

43:03
Yeah. So as we're wrapping up here, any last thoughts that people should know about apologizing or anything else in general? I would just say that it's important to try to get it right when we're the one. We are the offender and we'll be both the offended and the offender until our very last breath.

43:31
And I would just reiterate that we strengthen our relationships, both our personal relationships and work relationships. We strengthen them one apology at a time when we're able to show others that we can listen, that we can reflect on our own behavior, and that we'll do our best to empathize and to

44:00
set things right and this is what our relationships and what our world needs more of. Yeah, it was actually really validating for me to just hear you say that because I don't need to be ashamed of the necessity to apologize, maybe sometimes I should be, but it just means that it's part of being human and that we can continue to practice.

44:29
Exactly. We are all flawed and imperfect humans, every one of us. Right. So if people want to find out more or see what you have going on, what would be the best place for people to go look? Well, the best place would be to go to my website. Just Google my name, Harriet Lerner.

44:58
two R's and one T. And that would be good enough. Great. And I'll put a link to your website in the show notes and I'll put a link to the TED Talk and your new book for sure so people can check it out. Great. Thanks so much. All right. Thank you so much, Harriet. Thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. My pleasure. Okay. Take care.

45:27
All right. What an incredible discussion. Thank you so much, Harriet. I really appreciate having you here. everybody make sure and go get her book. I actually read the whole thing and it's incredible. And it's really helpful for my work with couples. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com

45:56
or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye everybody.