294: Attachment Styles with Annie Chen

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Annie Chen about attachment styles.  Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 294: Attachment Styles with Annie Chen

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

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In this episode, Shane talks with Annie Chen about attachment styles. Annie is an author, therapist, consultant, and coach who holds 2 master’s degrees in counseling and psychology. With over 17 years dedicated to studying the mind, nervous systems, and relationships, she has developed a unique approach to relationships and working with people. Hear why attachment theory is so important, how we develop our attachment styles, how to approach attachment styles with your clients, the danger of talking in absolutes, and how much to dive into family of origin work.

 Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• How attachment styles form invisibly in childhood and show up as surprise in adult relationships
• What makes secure couples different
• Why labeling is a useful heuristic but never absolute
• The therapeutic approach is to validate the strategy, then honestly assess whether it's working
• What the avoidant partner's avoidance costs the relationship

To learn more about Annie Chen, visit:

AnnieChen.net

AttachmentQuiz.com

The Attachment Theory Workbook

I Want to Connect

Instagram @AnnieChenLMFT

 

You can also listen to Annie Chen on Episode 90 of The Couples Therapist Couch.

 

Show Notes

• 294: Attachment Styles with Annie Chen
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [1:29] Welcome to the show, Annie Chen!
• [2:25] Closing the gap in the literature for a workbook people could actively engage with
• [3:51] How the book uses quizzes from chapter one that make it immediately personal
• [4:21] Check out attachmentquiz.com for a free interactive version of the quiz with instant results
• [6:41] We start learning two-way relationships before we can speak
• [8:34] The three early patterns: crying out, acting like you have no needs, or signaling cooperatively
• [10:20] How attachment styles form invisibly in childhood and show up as surprise in adult relationships
• [11:43] Attuning to what your partner needs, not what you would want
• [13:31] Honoring the avoidant need for space and why "soothe me" culture doesn't work for everyone
• [15:26] Overview of the three styles covered in the book: anxious, avoidant, and secure
• [17:23] Secure attachment in the room: collaborative, easy alliance, not defensive, primed to learn
• [20:17] What makes secure couples different 
• [22:39] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [23:37] Insecure attachment: less capacity for two-way relationship under stress
• [25:04] How insecure attachment stays hidden until differences or external threats surface it
• [26:31] Why labeling is a useful heuristic but never absolute 
• [29:22] Anxious attachment: sympathetic nervous system activation, escalation, criticism, speaking in absolutes
• [33:40] How anxious attachment plays out digitally
• [35:25] The therapeutic approach is to validate the strategy, then honestly assess whether it's working
• [38:46] Avoidant attachment in the room: walled off, disconnected from emotional needs, preferring to stay "happy-go-lucky"
• [40:35] What the avoidant partner's avoidance costs the relationship
• [42:25] The anxious-avoidant pairing: why it's so common and how each style amplifies the other
• [43:51] Using the book as a bibliotherapy tool for clients doing work between sessions
• [44:46] The book is for individuals too, because attachment patterns show up in every significant relationship
• [45:43] What's actually inside the book?
• [46:41] Find the quiz at AttachmentQuiz.com and Annie's practice at AnnieChen.net
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

  

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

 

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
They get more escalated, they start raising their voices. You start to see signs in their body that they're just like not happy.

00:13
Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Birkel.

00:29
Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

00:59
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel. And today I'm talking with Annie Chen, licensed marriage and family therapist and author of the attachment theory workbook. Hey Annie, welcome to the show. Hi Shane. Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thank you for inviting me. I'm very happy to be here.

01:29
Yeah, so attachment theory is something that a lot of people have been talking a lot about. You know, I think it's something people are interested in. So I'm really excited to dive into it with you. But before we do, can you just tell the audience a little bit more about yourself and your work as a therapist and what inspired you to write the book? Yeah, sure. So I have been

01:58
practicing therapy for about 10 years and specializing with couples for about four years and Let's see what inspired me. I have a practice in downtown Oakland, California and so I guess you know what inspired me to write the book is that I use a lot of attachment theory in my practice both with individuals and with couples and

02:25
You know, there's books out there right now. There's numerous, you know, really good titles about attachment theory. And I think that I just wanted to, I saw an opening kind of in the literature space for a good workbook. You know, something that I think especially younger people are interested in, not just reading, but also having things that they can dive into.

02:55
And so, you know, as they're digesting and learning about attachment theory, I wanted to give them a sense of, you know, what it would be like, what to actually work on your attachment, you know, to understand and bring more awareness to their attachment styles, their partners, or, you know, other people's attachment styles, and for that to just go more into the...

03:22
the lexicon that we use because I think it's such an important theory. And I actually, think I want to talk a little bit more about that. you know, why a taffin theory is so great in the field of other psychological theories. Yeah, absolutely. So we'll definitely talk about that today, but I love, but just to speak to what you were saying, I love your, the fact that your book is a workbook and I've been able to look through it, you know, and that

03:51
If you want to read a really big, like you said, there are some really good books out there about attachment. If you want to read a good big book about it, that would be one option, but you provide another option in this workbook, I think right from, believe it's chapter one, that you start taking these quizzes and answering questions and you kind of, I think it's about what figuring out what your attachment style is, is the first step. So it becomes very personal to the person who's reading it, which I think is really cool.

04:21
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I wrote this attachment quiz and actually this didn't make it into the printing, but I have, I put it up on a website in interactive format as well. So the quiz, so, so people can find it. If I can just put in a plug right now for the URL. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it's an attachment quiz.com and it's just a really

04:48
easy way to share the quiz and for people who are not ready to quite, you know, go and buy the book, but want a taste of, know, what they're going to get and what this attachment stuff is all about. Um, it's just an easy way to kind of dip your toe in. So yeah. Have you seen it? That's great. No, I haven't looked at that yet. Is it, um, something that, uh, if I go there, I can take the quiz and, and figure out what, what my attachment style is.

05:17
It's the same as the quiz in the book. So it's an exact same quiz, maybe like just a slight change here or there. And so you take the quiz and then a chart pops up and gives you your results. And so this is an alternative because it's not the easiest to do the quiz in the book because then you have to add up the numbers and then go back and take the subtotals. You know what I mean? So it's just an easier way to just click.

05:46
your answers and then your results pop up and you can email them to yourself if you want. Yeah, that's awesome. And I imagine if I'm thinking about buying the book, I can just go to the website, take the quiz, see what it's all about a little bit. And then if I'm interested, then I'll be like, Oh, I want to take it a little further by getting the book. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then people also, in my head, what happened was like, Oh, if people are

06:12
reading through the book, then I, so again, it didn't make it into the first printing, but I, know, ideally they could see, Oh, and you can take the quiz online here. And then just come back to the book because, because yeah, not everybody wants to, you know, it's just, it's just a different thing to start circling and then adding up numbers and, things like that. So yeah, hopefully it'll make it into the second printing. Yeah, great. Well, yeah. So let's take a step back to what you were talking about before.

06:41
I think this is a good place to start, which is why is attachment theory so important? I think as therapists, most of us are pretty sold on attachment theory. I've been thinking about attachment theory a lot, especially as I explain it to clients.

07:07
and lay people, know, people who are not therapists and not in the therapy world. And what I thought of is this, is that I think attachment theory is so profound because it's, as far as psychological theories go, what it says basically is that, you know, we start learning about two-way relationships as soon as we're born, really, right? And we learn about this from our caretakers and

07:37
We learn, know, particularly, you know, when we're so, so young, we have a lot of needs that, you know, we need other people to be involved with, to meet. And so we start learning like, okay, like, you know, if I do this, if I signal in this way, is something going to happen? You know, am I going to have a good experience here? And is that person going to feel good to me, you know, and as I look in their eyes, as I

08:06
not verbally, of course, but you know, this is all preverbal experience, but do I get that touch? Do I get that warmth? Do I feel that connection? And so this just starts so early. And I think that attachment researchers, you know, have been interested in this for a really long time. Well, since, you know, this kind of learning starts really early, what is it that people internalize and what type are they, you know, when they

08:34
when they need something, when they have a need that, these babies have a need that involves somebody else to help them meet, do they cry a lot and get very fidgety and restless? Do they act like they don't actually, they aren't actually needy? Or do they signal in a way that looks like it's

09:03
pretty cooperative and ineffective and then they end up getting their needs met and without a whole lot of fanfare. so, yeah, and then I think it's just taken over time that research is just extrapolated to adult relationships and then we find that, oh, adults actually behave in these very same ways when they have a certain kind of need or

09:30
an emotional need or physical need that others in their lives are involved with meeting. so, yeah, so we find that this is just actually something learning that carries over into adult relationships. And of course, it's not like, you know, a clear one way evolution, but that learning is very much there. And it's a basis of moral learning. So,

09:58
Sometimes, you know, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy if, we behave in certain ways over the years and then we kind of, you know, get the same responses from other people. And so that becomes a much more consolidated attachment style. Does that make any sense? Yeah, absolutely. And what I love about what you're talking about

10:20
is that oftentimes we grow up in these families, like you were saying, it's pre-verbal oftentimes, you know, we're only two, three, four, five years old and we're growing up in our family and our parents may be responding to us in a way that's, that they might not communicate very much or they communicate too much or they're overly responsive or they're not responsive enough. And we, as children, we don't realize this is going on. We think it's just normal reality and we grow up.

10:49
And we develop either an anxious attachment style or an avoided attachment style or whatever kind. And we bring that into our relationship and we don't even realize that we carry this with us from childhood, from what we grew up with. We just think that our family was normal and it comes as a surprise when our partner doesn't deal with us in the same way that we expect people to deal with us in a relationship.

11:19
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so true. Yeah, those expectations is unspoken expectations So Stan talks a lot about this is that you know, you have to learn your partner's user manual, right? And so that that rule, know, not not the golden rule of do unto others How you would want to be done to you?

11:43
something like that, but to do for others what they would want. And that's right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's such an important aspect of attunement. And that's, that's ultimately, I think what we're all looking for. And I think if we understand that, then we don't all have to be, you know, in this sort of securely attached category, which is that like really coveted 40 % of the population.

12:11
That as long as you understand that, you might have very different kind of style and needs than your partner, but as long as you're both working together to attune to the other person, then it can work. A person with a more anxious style can work with a person with a more avoidant style.

12:37
Yeah, I love that. That's a huge part of what I often do with couples that most of us probably do with couples. I think it's about getting them to understand, you know, it's like, I might get overwhelmed and say to my partner something like, why didn't you come hug me when I was feeling upset? As if in my brain, that's just what normal people do in their relationship. But maybe my partner would have wanted alone time in that moment or something. And so it's about

13:04
How do I communicate with vulnerability my reality and what I want and listen to my partner communicate their reality and what they want and be accepting of the fact that it might be different. And that it doesn't mean that we don't care about each other. It just means that we have to learn each other's user's manual, like you said, and not make assumptions. Yeah, totally.

13:31
sometimes what we call the more avoidant response, the wanting to be alone or to have more alone time. I'm a big advocate of that in my practice for honoring that. sometimes I think there's an overemphasis on the type of connection that is just this very physical and- Codependent.

13:59
I don't want go that far, but this sort of like soothe me, soothe me, soothe me, be here, be with me kind of connection. I think that we know, I think, yeah, I think we know now that people with more avoidant styles or who have had form avoidant attachments, that doesn't necessarily work for it. And that if it's a two-way relationship, then it's got to work for both people.

14:28
Yeah, totally. And just having that acceptance and understanding for whatever it is they feel like they need. Not making them feel ashamed if that's something that doesn't come naturally to them to be close and things like that. Yeah. But yeah, so do you think it would be helpful to talk about the different attachment styles? You did such a great job of writing about each one in the

14:57
in the book and I feel like you'd be a really good person to kind of give a little bit of an overview of each one if you would be open to that. Yes, let's see. Yeah, we can do that. mean, okay, let's just have a conversation about that, we? Yeah, absolutely. Because I think that once people take the quiz in the book and they find out their attachment styles,

15:26
Well, before we talk about, I think it would be helpful to talk about, you know, the interactions that people end up having if they get into a relationship depending on each person's attachment style, what that might look like, but first establishing what each attachment style kind of looks like. So the three that I cover in my book are the, you know, what I guess we could call the anxious attachment style, the

15:56
avoidant attachment style and then the secure attachment style. you know, anybody who's studied the attachment research knows that there are other categories. disorganized attachment, don't even talk about at all. And I think that in some of the research, there's a category that's just like unclassifiable. obviously this is, you know, this is simplified and it's

16:24
Um, and I'm talking about in a way that is very accessible, you know, and not clinical or subclinical, um, so that people who have never been in therapy can access this. That's great. Yeah. And yeah, so, you know, I mean, basically there's two veins of attachment. There's secure attachment and then there's insecure attachment and

16:54
In insecure attachment, there's two different styles that we talk about. There's one that's the more anxious insecure style, and then there's the more avoidant insecure style, right? So one thing that just occurs to me right now is to talk about what they feel like to me in the room, especially when I work with couples. Great. And so the first one I will start with is maybe the

17:23
We'll just start with a secure style. with secure attachment, people who are securely attached or form more secure attachments, especially if, if, um, both partners, you know, are more secure or attached more securely. It's just, it's just feels really easy. It feels like, Oh my gosh, like there's, you know, it's very cooperative.

17:52
Very collaborative. Generally, there's a very easy alliance, not a lot of resistance. And so they're there to work on an issue. These couples definitely come to couples therapy. You know, they're not, I think it's a myth to think that, that these people, that they don't have any problems, so they're not going to come to therapy. They come to couples therapy. And sometimes, you know, there's just an issue that like, oh, wow, this issue has gotten really entrenched, you know, and we don't really know. It is beyond our

18:21
our ability to solve it at this point. And so they come to couples therapy, it's like, they're just kind of easy and a pleasure to work with. Not that all couples aren't a pleasure to work with, but just in a different way. It's like, wow, you know, you're here to, I asked you a question, your responses is very congruent, so you know, it's easy to understand. You make it so that you're easy to understand for your partner.

18:51
And the two people seem to really kind of get, you know, like the very core principles of how to have a relationship in a way that supports security. Yeah, very, very relaxed with each other, very understanding with each other, not defensive, able to take in each other's perspective, even if they don't necessarily agree.

19:21
Yeah, yeah, yeah. For the most part, yes. It's also important to note that all people and all couples get stressed out. Sure, sure. Right. under stress, they may behave differently. It may be harder for them to take the other person's perspective or side or their own side. But I think it's easier to kind of move them back to kind of just point them in the right direction and they'll just flow right.

19:50
into where you're pointing them. yeah, they're primed to learn, to take in new information rather than their nervous systems being in a state of threat and that they're expending other resources to take care of that and to manage that. So they just have more bandwidth to...

20:17
and to be with you, to be with the therapist, to be with the partner, to take in new information and to learn how to maybe do things differently, to get to clarity and also kind of like patience, you know, to get to clarity. Then I see with some of my more insecurely attached partners that, you know, because sometimes, you know, with secure couples, like it's not going to work out.

20:46
You know, there's deal breakers, there's incompatibility, but there's like a, there's a patience to, like let's really spend the time to make sure that we're putting, you know, making the best decision here and that we're both considered here. And so it's generally like a pretty easy to work with and reasonable, you know, like reasonable on the like conventional sense side.

21:15
Yeah, that's a great explanation. I would add this, and I don't, definitely correct me if you feel like this isn't congruent with what you're talking about, but I feel like part of it is that the confidence that I will be healthy, whether I am with this partner or not, this lack of dependence on the person to say anything or do anything for me to feel okay in this situation, sort of the healthy self esteem or self love that allows me to

21:45
have good boundaries and take in their perspective without needing to judge it or defend myself or things like that. Yeah. think often that's kind of what it feels like or looks like. Yeah. Yeah. Often. Yeah. I don't know about like always because I try not to make assumptions about what is going on, you know, in their head or what their stories are, you know, about their relationship to themselves. I just know that when, you know, these things are the attachment,

22:13
stuff is so embedded that it just shows up in behavior. just shows up in the social engagement system. It just shows up in how people have two-way relationships and how much capacity they have for two-way relationships. Yeah. That was a wonderful explanation of the secure attachment. Good. That makes a lot of sense. Building a private practice can be challenging.

22:39
Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment.

23:07
Plus when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. What are you seeing if you're in the room and working with a couple and you see which one would you like to describe next?

23:37
Well, let's talk about like insecure attachment first. So that's not exactly the style. That's not a style, but it is the other vein. And yeah. So, so, you know, I would say that it's really secure and insecure and then under insecure, there's, there's like sub styles, right? Right. Okay. Yeah. And you know, I think it's, it's useful to think of it that way because, because it's like the, the anxious style and the avoidant style.

24:06
manifest in different ways, but there's a lot of commonality there. And the commonality there is that there's significantly less capacity for two-way relationship, especially when people are stressed out. Especially when things are hunky dory and when things are cool and you want the same thing and I want the same thing, then no issue. We get along. And if our chemistry is good, then wow, perfect, beautiful.

24:36
And then the issues kind of creep up when you feel something different than I do or you want something different or you have a different opinion than I do. And then there's stress, there's threat. There's like, wait, does this mean that this is not gonna work out for me? And then so then that's the insecure style is that there's just underlying more susceptibility.

25:04
to that kind of stress, know, that kind of interpersonal stress of, oh wait, you know, there's, there's, I might not get what I need or my partner might not get what they need. And then, and then it's going to be like, um, a problem for one or both of us. Yeah. And this is based on something you said before, but again, correct me if I'm wrong, this idea, and this is, this is maybe more how I think about it, but,

25:34
that all of us have the ability to be healthy in our relationships a lot of the time. When we're talking about someone who might be insecurely attached, it's not like they're walking around like this all the time. It's just when there's a stressful situation in their relationship, we might say that this comes up in very certain circumstances for them, this insecure attachment kind of style.

26:01
Whatever it might be for each of us and and that all of us can get into that no matter how healthy we think we are Depending on the situation and what comes up for us Yes, yes, just just to avoid like labeling people as fine in any of these things. We have a little bit of Each of these things. Yeah, absolutely and that and that's the that's trouble with you know, categorizing anything and putting anything in buckets and

26:31
as I've done in this book. But it is really helpful. Yeah. It's like a helpful heuristic. And there is research to suggest that people do maintain some fidelity to their attachment style across time, across different relationships. But it's never a good idea to just label anybody or yourself for that matter.

26:58
because we're all capable of learning and growing and that's what our minds do. then, and absolutely, as far as like healing developmental wounds and attachment wounds, we do that in relationship. That's what relationships are for. So yeah, it's not helpful to be absolute about any of these labels. When someone is feeling insecurely attached, it's like,

27:25
And whether, know, whatever's the part of it is what's going on in their relationship. Part of it is the meaning that they're making of that. That they're, but they're feeling like really insecure. They're feeling overwhelmed. They're feeling fearful that something might be wrong in their relationship or that they're not going to get their needs met or things like that. Yeah, yes, exactly. The, the insecurity that I'm talking about me specifically.

27:55
is attachment insecurity, which means that there's some information there that triggers a sense of, oh no, this isn't gonna go well, or this isn't gonna work for the two of us. And in the kind of relationships I see in my practice with couples, it often has to do with

28:24
differences, you know? And otherwise it doesn't show up. mean, if two people are always on the same page, it would never really show up because those attachments are become so important, right? That's where we feel met. That's where we feel like we have somebody in our corner. So yeah, so where it shows up is when there's stress. There's stress in the relationship because you want to think or feel something

28:54
different than I want think or feel or From or externals of relationships. There's a an external threat. There's somebody who's who's in competition for the resources, you know between the two of us and And when that happens Yeah, people the the people who are Tend to form more insecure attachments they they go into you know a state of

29:22
sort of like psychological and also neurophysiological threat. you know, so that shows up in different ways. And when that happens, then we start talking about the two subcategories of insecure attachment, you know, the more anxious way, which is the more, you know, maybe you could.

29:49
call it kind of the sympathetic nervous system activation where they start to act in, mean, the word is anxious, but I like to point out, especially with folks who are in this field that obviously both kinds of insecure attachment styles have anxiety, definitely have anxiety. So what we're talking about when we say

30:18
anxious attachment is kind of just like a more activated anxiety, one that is more active and will tend to escalate in arguments and fights, will start to blame and instigate conflict and criticize and just kind of spin out in that way.

30:47
Yeah. about it in the book and I wonder if there's just an easy kind of like checklist here or something. Yeah. they tend to, some complaints that people will have about these folks when they're stressed out in relationships, they're angry, they're abrasive, critical and kind of demanding. They're hard to satisfy and it seems like there's always something wrong and it's...

31:16
That's just a way that their attachment anxiety manifests. Yeah. Good. Good. Yeah. um, you know, I, um, as some, some listeners might know, I'm have done a lot of training with Terry real and the relational life therapy. And there's a lot of similar, I don't know if he would agree. I don't, nobody take this as his idea, but I see a lot of similarities between this and, um, what he calls boundary lists.

31:45
and walled off that when there's an insecure feeling of attachment in the situation that most of us fall either into a little bit more boundaryless or being a little bit more walled off. Right. Yeah. And these things sound kind of similar to being boundaryless to me. Yeah. not filtering myself as well as I usually do. Right. You know, kind of letting that seep into their relation.

32:13
my anxiety seep into their relationship. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great connection. I would say, yeah, that's, sounds like, you know, almost the exact same thing that we're talking about. Um, and I'm talking about with attachment styles. Um, yeah. And then so in the room, these are the folks who, know, they, they get more escalated. They start raising their voices. They start, you you start to see signs in their body that they're just like not happy, you know, and

32:43
They'll roll their eyes, they'll be just more physically dismissive, they'll be more likely to show affect on their faces, know, and just, yeah, just more expression and they tend to, will make, you know, statements that are not checked. So there's like boundary lists, you know, type of thing.

33:12
and full of errors. You always do this. You never do this for me. Oh yeah, speaking in absolutes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, these folks that tend to have the style tend to talk more. You know, this is not absolute as well. I have seen some folks who are more anxiously attached that also because of their personalities or because

33:40
of their arousal patterns and structures don't talk a lot, but yeah, but they tend to have more to say, you know? Yes. And I feel like in our digital world these days that this, this plays out a lot in the clients I see sometimes in like when the partners are at work for the day or something, an anxiously attached partner might

34:03
send a text and their partner doesn't get right back to them. So 10 minutes later they send another text like, why haven't you responded? Then 10 minutes later it's like, where are you? Why aren't you talking to me? This feeling of like, are you there? Are you there for me? Can you get back to me? And it starts getting louder and louder and louder. We're more blamey or something. Yeah, yeah. And you know, when I talk about this, I also am reminded that

34:30
Oh yeah, I've experienced all of these things, right? Sure, yeah. Yeah, it's a very human experience. But just when we talk about, okay, this anxious attachment style, it's like, okay, this just seems to happen for you more. And it gets triggered more easily. Yeah, this sense of abandonment, this question mark, right? Are you there for me? Are you there right now? Are you still going to be there?

34:59
wait a minute, you know, like, I thought that I could rely on you for this and now you're, now you're just doing something completely different and this is not good. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, well, and I don't know for you, I think, um, finding ways to, be accepting of that, to, sit, you know, to talk about, know, whether you maybe go into family of origin a little bit and say, make observations like, of course you.

35:25
are trying to get your needs met this way. Of course that makes sense based on what you grew up with or something you went through. It makes a lot of sense. But to recognize that maybe it's not fully working for you and I can teach you some different ways of trying to get more of what you need so that it is about that acceptance and not blaming them but at the same time sort of presenting an alternative reality for them to.

35:54
to have motivation to learn how to do it in a different way. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Totally. I mean, I like that approach. think, yeah, I think that's basically what we're trying to do is to create some awareness about what strategies they're using and then maybe do an honest assessment of how well it's working, the strategies. Yeah, yeah. And everybody is capable of doing that, especially because when they come into couples therapy,

36:23
there is a lot on the line and it's right there. It's very evident. There's a relationship that's clearly important to them and they need something from that. There's something that they need. so when you can get between people and their strategies and just point out, wow, this is not effective for you. This is not effective for your partner. And also of course,

36:51
Of you would do it this way, right? Family of origin or for other reasons. Yeah, you have every right to feel this way, to feel outraged and to be dissatisfied. And then it's just about like working them, opening their horizons to a different direction of doing things. If that's what we're doing, if we're working on that side of the equation. That's a wonderful way to put it, Annie.

37:20
that we're accepting the feeling reality. Of course you have those emotions that come up, but we're suggesting that there's an alternative behavior, even as you're having those emotions, that there are skills you can learn to change the behaviors that come out in those situations. Yeah, yeah, exactly. If that's what we're doing, we're trying to teach them to do a different thing, which...

37:48
I think is super important. And I know that for Terry Real's work, that, I think that is a really important aspect of what he does is, you know, basically grow people up, you know, and get them to be more effective at getting their needs met. And that's super. But, you know, when I say like both sides of the equation is that I think the other side of the equation is the partner and how they respond, right? And how they respond to those things.

38:17
and how much they can demonstrate that they understand and accept these responses, these behaviors that they're not against them, that they're not, I guess for lack of better word, demonizing them, that these behaviors, they're not seeing their partner as a villain, which we see so much of.

38:46
as a partner, if we see something that we don't like, then it's like, oh my goodness, there's already a reaction there that can be pretty unproductive and unhelpful. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And what might we see if we're looking at someone with a little bit more of an avoidant attachment style? Yeah. So I like what you said about walled off.

39:16
It's folks in my practice when I see them in my practice these partners I'm trying to basically convince them that they have some needs there that you know that haven't been attended to that maybe you know, I'm trying to to show them and convince them and show them by using various exercises and and pointing things out like

39:42
Like, oh, did you see, to them and to their partners, did you see that there was, that they got a little bit teary-eyed there? Do you think that that means that, what do you think they're feeling? And to basically teach them, to bring them into the world of their emotions and their needs, their emotional needs, particularly. Yeah, so.

40:09
That's what it feels like to me. And Waldorf might be a good descriptor of that for some of these folks. And then some of these folks, you know, are actually pretty like happy go lucky, you know, that they just kind of exist in a realm where they're not comfortable with having needs, especially needs that haven't been met, you know, or that haven't been embraced.

40:35
But otherwise, and they don't want to go there, know, they, because they, they'd rather stay in this kind of more happy-go-lucky place because that's a place where there are no problems. Yeah. Yeah. Why would I want to talk about the problems? This is going to make us argue with each other. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Their partner feels very dismissed oftentimes.

41:04
they do wanna talk, know, many of us have personalities that we do wanna talk through things and that's important. That's how we figure it out and make sense of it. And I'm already thinking about how these two realities clash with each other when there's a relationship where each of these partners or that has one of each of these partners, you know, the more...

41:27
one partner avoids the more anxious the other partner becomes and the dance that happens between them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So in one of the sections of my book, I talk about the interactions. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. So there's literally kind of breakdown each, you know, if you matrix it, you get six different interactions. Okay. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah, you don't have to, I guess, uh,

41:55
That might be for a whole nother episode that we could get into all that. It's reassuring to know, you know, as a therapist that you can kind of break down what it looks like with each of the combinations on the matrix that there are some ways that this might play out in a somewhat predictable way and ways that we can help people depending on how that looks. Exactly. Yeah. And

42:25
And you know, this is just like these stories, these examples come from my practice, my life experience about what these look like and what these feel like. the one that, you know, we talk about a lot, a lot, and you know, this Shane is the, anxious and avoidant pairing because, because it's, um, it's just so common, you know, in that we see in our practices and even if, um, the two, two,

42:55
partners are not necessarily categorically anxiously attached and categorically avoidantly attached. When you have certain tendencies, these, like you said, they just bring it out in each other. so, yeah, so we talk about that a lot because it just shows up so much. It's like, you get a little bit more aggressive and I'm gonna wanna retreat a little bit more, right? And...

43:21
So I think that's just like in a lot of ways the bread and butter of our work as couples therapists. This is a good place to wrap it up with, with, um, thinking about your book because like I was saying at the beginning, when, um, people get your book, I think it's the first chapter, somewhere close to the beginning, they're taking these quizzes and understanding their own attachment style. And then you give a little bit of education around the different attachment styles.

43:51
And like you said, you have the attachment style interactions that people can learn more about. This would be an incredible book for us as therapists to give to certain clients, you know, that I think would be really helpful for them to do a lot of work outside of the therapy room, you know? Yeah. Seems like. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. So.

44:19
especially as a therapist if you like to work that way and if your clients like to do like bibliotherapy and sort of things to supplement their sessions, think yeah, check it out. I really encourage you to check it out. Anybody who's interested can just check out the quiz just for free at attachmentquiz.com. Yeah, I'll definitely leave a link for that in the show notes. Cool.

44:46
Yeah, so I just wanted to say also that the book isn't just for couples. It's also for individuals, you know, who are interested in exploring attachment style and individuals who don't necessarily even have a romantic relationship. I think that attachment patterns show up in all significant relationships. So this is a book that, you know, I think really tries to address that.

45:15
not just romantic ones, your best friend, your boss, your family members, your parents, all of these relationships can benefit from more awareness about what's going on in the attachment realm. so, yeah, so in that sense, it would also be good for therapists who are doing some attachment work with individuals. Yeah, that's fantastic. That makes a lot of sense, yeah.

45:43
Just understanding ourselves as a human being in our relationships and our place in the world. For sure. And the other thing I wanted to say is that there's about 37 exercises total in the book. Most of the chapters actually are, the exercises in most of the chapters are for like an individual just doing the workbook. And then,

46:11
in the one of the later chapters, I think in chapter five, when it talks about the attachment style interactions, then there's a few exercises in there that you can do with a partner if you choose to. Just to clear that it's not specifically a couples therapy workbook. Sure. Couples workbook. There are other workbooks that do that, but this is just like a more general attachment theory, attachment style workbook.

46:41
Yeah, that's really good to know. so the attachment quiz.com for the quiz and then is there some place in particular people can go to find out about the book in particular? Attachment quiz.com has. That's the place. That's the place. That is the place. Yeah, think the topic is right on point for something people need right now. know, something that people are talking a lot about and.

47:09
It would be really helpful for people. So that's great. And so I'll leave links to that stuff in the show notes. Any other way people can find out about you or anything else? Any, any last words before we wrap up here? Sure. I have a like my professional website, my, uh, as a therapist is I'll just give it to you in text or something like that. It's a change insight.net.

47:36
And so people, if they want to work with me, if they have questions for me, they can go to that website. Great. Yeah. Sounds good. All right. Thank you so much, Annie. This has been really great talking with you. Thank you so much for the invitation again. Yeah. Hopefully we can talk again at some point in the future. Yeah, that would be great. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

48:03
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody!