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293: Surviving Betrayal with LaDonna Carey

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with LaDonna Carey, Betrayal Recovery Specialist, Therapist, Trainer, and the Author of Surviving Betrayal: A Path to Healing from Betrayal and Abandonment. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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  • Show Notes
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The Couples Therapist Couch 293: Surviving Betrayal with LaDonna Carey

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

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In this episode, Shane talks with LaDonna Carey about Surviving Betrayal. LaDonna is a Betrayal Recovery Specialist, Therapist, Trainer, and the Author of Surviving Betrayal: A Path to Healing from Betrayal and Abandonment. Hear why betrayal is so hard to navigate, how to help your clients have these conversations even with anger coming through, how to work with both the betrayer and the betrayed, why intensive sessions are more effective in cases of betrayal, and how to be conscious of your own biases as a couples therapist.

 Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

  • Why is affair trauma harder to recover from than a single traumatic event?
  • How do you know if a couple is safe enough to begin couples therapy?
  • How can the Enneagram and IFS help explain different responses to betrayal?
  • Why are intensive sessions a better fit for betrayal recovery work?
  • How do forgiveness and therapist bias affect the therapy room?

Show Notes

  

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

 

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
And when I look at your face, my brain is saying, here's a person I love and I've shared a life with, and here's a person who has hurt me more than anybody in the world ever has.

00:17
The podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Birkel.

00:32
Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

01:01
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. everyone. Welcome back to the Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and today I'm speaking with LaDonna Carey, therapist, trainer and author of the new book, Surviving Betrayal. Hey LaDonna, welcome to the show. Hey, it's good to see you. Very glad to be here. Great to see you too. Yeah, why don't you, you we've, you've been on the show before.

01:31
And, uh, why don't you fill in everyone about what's been going on for you? Okay. Sure. I think gosh, is maybe four or five years ago. Wow. Yeah, probably. Yeah. It's been a while, but you know, people still circle back to me and say, saw you on the couple's couch. And so that's always really nice. Um, but over those years, I've continued to deepen my work with betrayal trauma and

01:58
healing from betrayal and abandonment and the attachment wounds. And that's really where the book Surviving Betrayal came from. It's kind of a combination of explaining this is what's going on internally with you. And here are steps that you can take to be able to help regulate yourself, understand that. And really the first kind of stages of just the crisis.

02:26
of being betrayed and recognizing how that is a traumatic response that we go through. So, you know, I thought the longer I do this, the more we kind of do need a manual to go along with that. And I go through lots of the different emotions, why they were there, the neuroscience behind that, it is that we're going through that.

02:56
and then what sort of steps that they can take. And I've added a therapist companion manual that goes along with each one of the chapters of the surviving betrayal. So that therapists kind of have a guideline that goes along with each chapter and they can use that in individual work or group work if they want to do that.

03:20
Oh, that's great. And you do some teaching of other therapists. I mean, I know and you have your conference coming up in October. Yeah, about that. Sure, I've got a program that I call SOS sharpening our skills and it's a free monthly by monthly training that I do around all things betrayal trauma. If there's new research that's come out that I think everybody needs to know about or is the interesting

03:49
I do a training on that currently do a training today on let's chat about chat GPT and how we need to know how our clients are using chat GPT and the impact of that. There was a new study that came out in science about how we are attaching emotionally to AI and how that can be both good and bad in the therapeutic setting. So.

04:17
I enjoy doing those trainings. I love to teach. I love to bring people together. So it just seemed like having a conference was the next step and the way to go. So we're going to have a conference in the Smoky Mountains. It's called Smoky Mountain Symposium on Relational Trauma. And I'm going to be speaking about safe therapy rooms and also about forgiveness.

04:45
Thomas Zimmerman is coming and he's going to be teaching the predictive brain flash modality for us so we can all go home and be prepped and ready to use that with our clients. Jenny Hughes is coming and she's going to talk about the vicarious resiliency that we need as therapists with trauma. And we've got other speakers that are talking about disgust. Rachel Britton, which is really a

05:12
unspoken territory a lot of times in the work that we do. So that's her specialty area. Jennifer Parker is coming with her format on treating folks for domestic violence and interpersonal violence so that we have a guideline with that. Anjani Devi is coming to talk about using the Enneagram in work to be able to do deeper work with that. um And then

05:42
Laura with therapy chat is coming and she's going to talk about systemic betrayal specifically about how we as therapists sometimes can be part of the betrayal system. If we're not up to date on being able to understand and treat betrayal trauma. Wow. That's great.

06:07
I'm super excited. Every time somebody said, yes, I'll come, I was like, yes, yes. Hallelujah. This is going to be great. I'm really excited about it. Good. Yeah. Well, I want to go back to something you were saying earlier, because I think this is really important. When people experience a trauma, like they're in a car accident or something, in some ways,

06:36
much more psychologically easier to recover from because it's clear. It's like, yeah, that was traumatic. can acknowledge that I have feelings connected to that situation. It might be hard to recover from that, when we're talking about an affair, there's a lot of things that are complicating the matter as far as people going through this trauma.

07:06
but also like wondering about themselves. Like, did I do something wrong or should I leave my partner? Am I being stupid for not leaving my partner? Um, there's part of me that wants to leave, but there's also part of me that really wants to work on it and make it work with them. And it's very confusing and overwhelming. It's like, well, I need my partner to show me this in order to feel the trust, but they're not doing that. And that makes it, you know, it's, and it's so confusing for people. And so I'm so glad to hear that.

07:34
You know, you've written this book to kind of help people through that process and help them find clarity about, you know, what their next steps might be. Yeah. And I tell you, the more I've done this work, the more I really think about we have to be able to assess early on with our clients. Are they going to be in a safe environment to do this work? Because if we try to push forward with

08:03
doing couples work, but we've got emotional abuse going on or any sort of physical abuse. If we still have the affair going on, if there are still attachment wounds that are happening and we as therapists go ahead and move forward, then we're not creating an environment that's gonna be beneficial for our clients. We need, in my opinion, and

08:32
There's some backup out there in research, of course, because we got to have that. But we cannot put our clients in a situation of where we're going to be reopening wounds if we don't know it's a safe environment. And to go back to your analogy about getting busted up in a car wreck and healing, if we were to go into the ER and we've got a gaping wound, there's going to be a sterile environment there.

09:01
to treat that hopefully, otherwise there's gonna be a lot more issues that come along from that. I think we wanna create a sterile environment in our office. And part of that is being able to assess, is this person ready for accountability and rupture repair? And if they're not ready for accountability, what do we do to see if this person can get ready for accountability?

09:32
And what do we do to call that out in the therapy session? There have been some folks that I've worked with and I've said, I can't move in to doing couples work with you because you're not ready to do the couples work. Let's do some individual work, you know, either with me or with someone else so that we can get you ready for that. And for the betrayed partner, that's hard for them to hear a lot of times too.

10:00
because they want it to be fixed. Like you said, I don't want my whole world turned upside down even more by not fixing this relationship that I thought was a secure spot for me to be. Does that come down to them not being able to be safe in the conversation for their partner? I think that that is part of it. If we have a person who's gas lighting,

10:30
using logical fallacies when they come into the session and we know that those are avoidant strategies, then we've got to call out the avoidance with that because otherwise if we don't call it out as the professional in the room, then the betrayed partner is trusting us to manage that therapy session in a way that's going to be beneficial for them as a couple.

10:59
If we don't call out the gaslighting, logical fallacies, the emotional abuse that may be there, we're not creating a safe container for the vulnerability that comes along with therapy. Yeah, and that's always a challenge to maintain rapport with the client while we're trying to tell them the truth about what they're doing or what's happening in front of us. Yeah, yeah, that's very true.

11:29
There's some meme that I can't think of the set, the show, maybe sunny in Philadelphia. Is that the name of the show? think so. Yeah. I've never watched it, but yeah. Yeah. I've just seen the clip, but the guy's getting up out of therapy and goes to therapy every week. And he looks at the therapist and says, if you I'll see you next week. That's the feeling. Yeah.

11:57
That's what we get a lot of times, you know? And so I do some prep work too with people and say, there are probably going to be some things that you feel like I'm stepping on your toes. And you know, it's, there's a reason behind it. These are the reasons behind it. And if you're putting things into the relationship that are not healthy and are not helpful here, you're hiring me.

12:26
to help you see those. And so I approach it with, we wanna understand where this is coming from. We wanna be able to look at how can we shift this so that it can go from unhealthy and dysfunctional to healthy and functional. And so I really spend a lot of time upfront talking about here are the reasons that we may go sideways sometimes and that's okay.

12:56
Here's where we're getting to with that. Yeah. I think as therapists, we, because we've seen so many couples, we have a sense and hopefully had an education and things like that, but we have a sense of the factors that exist when there's a healthy relationship. And so, you know, I don't think that I'm, it's my job to tell people how to live their life or what to do.

13:24
But I think what we're telling people is if you continue to communicate in this way or behave in this way, that these aren't the things that make a healthy relationship possible. And if you're motivated, what you really want is to have connection with your partner and to heal and to have a good relationship, then if you continue to do these things, that's not going to happen. Because as soon as it feels like we're telling them, well, you're doing it wrong, you're bad, you know.

13:53
then that's where I think they get frustrated. They don't understand it's in their best interest to make these changes if what they really want is the relationship. Yeah. And I think as you were saying, we have to stage it as this is what healthy relationship looks like. And I remember years ago, I had a person say, well, how do you get to determine what a healthy relationship is? Yeah. So

14:21
You there's challenges that come back that you gotta be ready to answer. Yeah, this is this is why I know this to be this is the science behind this. But if you don't know the science behind that and you get slammed with that question, that's going to be an awkward moment there in therapy. So being able to understand when you're interacting this way, this is the impact of emotional abuse.

14:48
that behavior can be determined as emotional abuse for these reasons. That's a logical fallacy that you're using. Here's what that logical fallacy is. Here's the intent of that logical fallacy. Is that your intent when you're talking with your partner in this way? Right. I mean, I know every situation is different, but are there differences in

15:17
what is often required to create safety for the person who had the affair versus for the person who was betrayed? Yeah, I think that's a discussion that's really important too. Yeah, I just discovered a book that talks about the revenge factor and what really is the revenge factor. And a lot of betrayed partners get misdiagnosed

15:47
early in treatment as maybe having a significant personality disorder or significant mental health issue because they're in crisis mode. They're in panic mode. My whole life is blown up here. I don't know who you are. And part of protection is revenge. I'm going to make you pay in some way. So being able to understand

16:16
the motivation behind that betrayed partner that I'm trying to create some sense of safety and some sense of accountability for you through this. And we got to set up constraints of what that revenge is going to look like. know, that to normalize, yeah, you may have those fantasies. You know, we hear stories about people getting run over with cars.

16:45
You may have that fantasy. You're not going to act on that. Here's what we have to do to make sure you're not acting on that. But also, once you're betrayed or the betrayer to you to understand this is the rage that you're feeling toward them right now. Now, what do we do as a couple to be able to regulate that, to manage that?

17:14
So it doesn't make a bad situation worse. Yeah, there's almost a feeling of justification for my behaviors. Well, they had an affair, so I'm allowed to treat them however I want to. again, it's understandable that people would feel that way, but it's not going to lead to healing or healthy relationship in the long run. you know, and you know, what are some things that

17:45
are helpful in that type of situation? Or how do you think about, like, how do I want this couple to have these types of conversations, even when there's that anger coming through? I think, first of all, I want them to understand this is the normal path of what happens here. And it's going to be rocky. It's going to get ugly at times. So what are the safeguards you're going to put in place?

18:13
yet do we have the withdrawal or pursuer dynamic that's going on? So how is it that you don't pursue so hard? How is it that you don't withdraw so hard? When is it that you have a time out with each other? And for the betrayer understanding, this person coming after you with their wound,

18:44
is because their wound is so raw right now. And they're trying to acclimate in their mind, here's the person I knew all this time. Here's a whole different side of them that I don't know. And when I look at your face, my brain is saying, here's a person I love and I've shared a life with, and here's a person who has hurt me more than anybody in the world ever has.

19:15
So of course your nervous system is gonna be dysregulated. Your brain's saying, what the hell is going on here? I see your face, but I don't even know who you are anymore. So helping the couple understand how they're gonna navigate that and that the rumination and the repetition is really safety seeking behaviors.

19:43
So if the betrayer can say, help me understand what you need right now. A lot of times just saying, need a hug or can I give you a hug? I'm sorry you're hurting that way. Or for the betrayed partner to say, I am just raging right now. And we got to figure out what to do with this. So naming it in the process.

20:13
And you know one of the things too I'm really excited that Anjani is coming and talking about the Enneagram because I love to use the Enneagram and IFS together because the Enneagram can tell me and tell my clients here's how your particular personality style is likely to respond to this. Some are going to respond through anger and I'm going to grab control with it.

20:43
Some of them may respond with the shutting down of the nervous system and I'm just gonna fall on and I'm gonna go along to get along and I don't want to ruffle feathers in any way. And then other people start security seeking and I'm afraid that my well-being is gonna be an issue here so I'm gonna start security seeking. That may look like I'm gonna start gathering

21:13
text records, I'm going to start gathering bank records. I'm going to start gathering money so that my safety will be here. Yeah. And if that gets brought into the therapy session, if it's not managed correctly of you, what, this is your personality style and you're looking for safety. It can look more like revenge and I'm just coming after you to ruin you. Does that make sense? Yeah.

21:42
And that it's great to understand how different people can experience this situation in very different ways. And to help their partner to understand, you know, because that's a big difference if their partner's perception is they're just trying to get revenge and take over the bank accounts. And, you know, this is leading to us not being together if we keep, if we draw this out versus

22:11
Oh, my partner's just seeking safety. Maybe I have a little, I can have some patience with what they need right now because this is going to lead to something better in the future if we can regain the safety. Yeah. And if the betrayer, if we know his particular personality style and which parts of him in IFS language, which parts of him or her are coming up, you

22:41
and how they're relating with each other. Then we can use that in the dynamics between the couple. I've done sessions with folks and they have been able to bring up, gosh, is what this is activating here inside of me. And then each of the partners can talk about that. And it doesn't become as personal.

23:10
and an attack, it turns it more into an understanding and a discussion. And if the person who's done the betraying says, I'm understanding maybe these exiles that we carry in IFS language, I'm understanding that part of me running into affairs

23:38
was because I learned that being vulnerable, being open, not being in control of a situation is very dangerous for me. And I did that as a way of feeling safer. And yeah, I did focus just on my own comfort with it, but I learned here through attachment styles and through attachment wounds that I had.

24:08
as a child and in different relationships that I had to keep this subtle secret control here because that made me feel safer. You're going to have a totally different session, you know, with the partner being able to understand, wow, you're getting why you did this, which helps me feel safer.

24:34
And this is what goes on with me when I hear you talking about how that betrayal or indiscretion or infidelity, how that came into play as a functional part for you. And if we talk about it, we can make changes with it. Building a private practice can be challenging.

24:56
Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment.

25:25
Plus when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. That's one of the questions I've heard so many times from the person who's been betrayed is why did you do this? Yes.

25:55
Yes. they have, really, you know, in some ways they just want a simple answer of like that their partner could tell them, explain it and then they would feel satisfied. But, you know, I think that it's a much deeper question that requires a lot of time to explore if they really want to know the answer to that. Yeah. Yep. I agree. And I think that's part of the assessing for safety.

26:24
to is the person willing to do some of that deeper work or do they just want their partner to be placated? Shut up. Forgive me and let's just move on. And as therapists, we need to be able to talk about. We got to be able to answer that. Why? I don't know the answer for it. You may not know it right now, but I know how to help you find that. So let's work to find it.

26:54
And I know you and I are both big fans of intensive sessions. And, you know, as we talk about this kind of work, you can see why intensives are such a good fit for this kind of work, because you don't want to open something like this up and then say, oh, well, I'll see you next week. You know, it times up. You got to be able to have time to be with that person.

27:22
and allow them the experience of finding inside of them what's going on and for the couple to be able to process that together. Yes, yes. Yeah, I just think that it's so important to acknowledge that this is a crisis situation for people and that it is going to take a number of hours to accomplish

27:51
that safety and to accomplish healing. And I think, you know, it's possible that that could happen 50 minutes a week over the course of several months or years or whatever. it's like, you know, I think it's important to say it out loud. Like the best way of helping people through this is to have those intensive sessions where they can really take the time because safety takes time to create.

28:19
And we don't want to meet with them for 50 minutes and send them home for a week when they don't have a certain baseline of safety. And then they come back next week and they still don't. They're not quite there yet. And it's like they're going week after week after week, living their lives in a way that's very painful. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And if we can get a jumpstart on it, if we can be ICU for them.

28:45
and get them up and going and things to work on and understandings, then their outcome is much better chance that things are going to work out either, you know, working out maybe saying, we're not going to be together. Working out maybe saying, we're going to live separately, but we're going to continue to work on this. Or it may be,

29:15
But we're going to really dig into this couple's work with each other and work to build closeness and connection with each other. So working out goes a lot of different ways and I do some discernment counseling in at the beginning of the intensives. When I start off with them, I do a Gottman assessment. I do work with discernment counseling. I do an attachment style.

29:45
Um, assessment so that we have that coming in and then, you know, the typical. Social history gathering that we do and I like to have all of that before they come into the intensive so that we can hit the ground running with it. And when I do a compilation of of all of those together. The clients always say, oh, my gosh, this is us. This is just like, you've been in the room with me.

30:15
And so that instantly starts building more safety, more security, more hope, because we want to be a hope merchant for the people who are coming in with us. And it gives us an idea of what we're walking into with that session, rather than here's just some new folks and I'm not sure what's going to happen here. Yeah, that's great. I mean, I think the more information we have, the better we can help people.

30:43
And I mean, that could be information that you gather before you even meet or while you're meeting with people. But I think therapists can make the mistake at times of rushing to conclusions too quickly or making assumptions too quickly. And it's going to happen probably. But I think we have to be humble enough to sort of take a step back and keep allowing the voice of our clients to continue.

31:12
being heard, you know, as we try to make suggestions about what would be helpful. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, another thing I think is really important, and I talk about this when I talk about forgiveness, we need to know what we're bringing into the room with it. Yeah. What am I bringing into you about what forgiveness looks like? What is my definition of what forgiveness is?

31:40
Where does that definition come from? You know, what's my beliefs about what couples need to do when they're in this situation? And we have to know ourself well enough to know when am I bringing some of my stuff into this therapeutic interaction here? Do I need to understand each person's philosophy on what forgiveness is?

32:10
Because unfortunately, I think forgiveness has been contaminated a whole lot with, yeah, there's a lack of accountability and you just forgive and you just move on. And if you choose to not do that, now you're the problem. And that will light me up every time. And I know that about myself that no, that's a bypassing. It's truly a spiritual bypassing.

32:38
It's ignoring the moral injury that has happened here. And you're just wanting to scoot through this without feeling any discomfort. Yeah. Which may be why you kind of have affairs in the first place, because I don't like feeling discomfort. I don't like the reality of what life is here. So I think being able to understand when might I be projecting some of my own stuff.

33:07
into the therapy room rather than really being curious and understanding what each of my clients are saying, what forgiveness means to them. Yeah. Anytime someone brings up the forgiveness word hit me, I get nervous because uh I want to understand, I really want to understand what they mean by that and what that, you know, what that, what they're trying to say by bringing that into the conversation, you know, and I think that

33:37
There's something I'm thinking of as you're talking, which is, don't know if you would call it a dance or like a juggling of different things, but it's part of the art of therapy, I think, where we do have to have a lot of that education and experience that we're bringing to the room. And we have ideas of what would create a healthy relationship, you know, something like safety we were talking about before, like, you know,

34:04
it's probably true that safety needs to exist for there to be a healthy relationship. But that being said, we also have to learn how to be flexible or just create space for what emerges from the people we're working with. Because we may have assumptions about what we think they need, but it may not be correct for these particular human beings who are in front of us.

34:30
I think everybody's different in some ways. And I love what you're saying. Like we have to be conscious of our own biases and uh beliefs and who we are, as we're working with people to make sure that we're creating enough space for their truth to emerge while we have that educational background to help them hopefully. Yep. That is very true. Very true. And if we don't

34:58
catch yourself or we don't have consultation where somebody else can point that out to you. Then I've had people come in and say, you know, I feel like I got betrayed by the therapist because of X, Y, and Z. none of us intentionally betray our clients. But if we're not aware of what you were saying, the personal bias that we bring into it.

35:28
If we're not open to hearing who they are, what their goals are with it, how this plays out for them, then we may very well betray them in the process by pushing some of our own agenda without realizing that. And some of the people say to me that they feel like the trauma of being betrayed.

35:58
wasn't fully understood and recognized. And like we mentioned before, that they were labeled incorrectly and got labeled as the problem when they were actually very much in crisis and panic mode, whatever that looked like for them. Or they felt like that the true issues didn't really get addressed, that it just stayed more on the superficial level, that

36:27
an affair turned into, well, you know, we've got to look at what your part was in this affair. And I can't tell you the number of times that I hear those sorts of issues that people have had with therapists that I mean, at some point we talk about what's everybody contributing to the relationship. Sure. But, you know, we've to be really careful about how you do that and timeline.

36:56
With that we got to be aware of the appropriate timeline with it because if the reput the rupture repair has not happened and we start talking about well, what is it that you did that caused this person to hurt you? That's not going to be. Beneficial right? Yeah, that's so important. And like you were saying for us just to be conscious of.

37:25
ah our oh own beliefs. I'm thinking too about what you were saying, I think it was before we started recording, where when you only have 50 minutes, I think for us as a therapist, I remember myself doing this where I'm rushing to try to get to make sure they get some sort of point across or something that day.

37:52
And it doesn't give you the time to really build that rapport and let people know that you're on their side and you're with them as they're going through it. And I think that's another plug for the longer intensive sessions. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I was saying to you, I selfishly said, I can't carry this level of stress anymore in doing this work because couples work is intense.

38:22
You know, very rarely do you have, that was just an easy session that we said through today. Yeah, couples work is not easy. And I want to do the best job that I can with the folks who are coming in to see me. And if I'm feeling like I'm leaving loose ends or there's something there that, gosh, we are right at the point we can shift into. And that's going to be really beneficial. But the clock's ticking. Then.

38:49
I just feel my stress level going up, which of course I'm going to bring into the therapy session with it. So I thought I just, I'm not doing that anymore. I don't feel like that is best practices for me or the people that I work with. And I want to be very clear and upfront with folks about this is what I do. This is the timeframe I do this in. These are the reasons for that. And

39:20
My clients appreciate that. sometimes they'll they'll say before session. Well, after session, you will do like a three hour session and they'll say, you know, we thought when we came in here, what in the world are we going to do for three hours? And then it felt like a blink. And you were saying, you know, it's time for us to wrap up. One person said to me, you know, I paid a lot of attention to that 50 minute mark.

39:50
of where a typical session would end and what happened afterwards. And LaDonna, you're exactly right. The magic happens after that 50 minute mark. Yeah, absolutely. I've heard that so many times from clients. We'll go through a whole day and we'll get to the end and they'll say, oh my gosh, it's over already. like we could keep going. ah There's such an opportunity.

40:18
to, I think, and it doesn't happen every time, but it's much more likely to happen. And it does happen often where you feel you really feel like you can wrap things up in a way, you know, not that they're entirely healed from an affair or something, but that they're leaving with a sense of clarity about what are the agreements we've made? What are each of us going to do to create that safety in our day to day life? What, you know, we're feeling confident about

40:48
the plan going forward from here and our boundaries and what each of us need and all of those things. It's maybe impossible to do that in 50 minutes, the first time you've met with someone especially. Yeah, yeah. The crisis of it, it is an absolute crisis. Absolutely great. Well, this has been such a helpful conversation.

41:15
Do you want to mention your book and your training again before we wrap up? Yeah, I would love to. The book is Surviving Betrayal and my training is Smoky Mountain Symposium on Relational Trauma. You can find out more about both of those at the website, Betrayaltraumarecovery.com. There's a link to the

41:42
Symposium there and also some information about my book and the therapist companion book and I'm I'm glad to have both of these things out in the world. I hope that they're beneficial and I hope the symposium. You know, my goal with that is for people who specialize in this work to really have the community of people in that.

42:08
get it, that understand that they can consult with and continue to learn with and just have relationship with. Each of the speakers pretty much has their own community of therapists where they provide continued services or consultation or group memberships to take care of each other. I do the free trainings. Thomas does some free trainings.

42:35
So, you know, all of us are really invested in the well-being of clinicians and just their professions. So really excited about that part of it. And then really excited about the book. Hopefully we'll go out and help people be able to understand this is the healing path that we need to go through when we're just surviving. We can't get to post-traumatic stress growth.

43:03
until we get this survival aspect of it done. Yeah, that's great. I think, you know, as I say this all the time, probably, but I think therapists need specific training to work with couples. I think it's a very different thing. And even more specifically, what you're doing as far as training couples about how to work with affairs, because that is a significant percentage of the couples who are going to be seeking therapy.

43:33
And so, you know, getting that that training is in support and community that you offer is so important for people. So thank you so much. Oh, absolutely. I twitch a little bit when I see a post like, I got a couple coming in in the morning and they're going to do a disclosure. Does anybody have any tips for me? And I'm like, oh, my God, my tip is don't do that. Yeah, don't do it. Cancel that session. Yes.

44:01
Why would you tell someone you're capable of that if you're asking for tips? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. just think that I think that I'm hoping that the mindset is changing over time. I think the mindset should really be that this is a specialization that needs to have specific training uh on working with couples.

44:28
And even more specifically, if we're talking about sex therapy, we're talking about affairs, all these different specific topics within that too. Yeah, and the more that we can educate consumers about how to screen therapists, that these are the things that all of us have different specialty areas. And you want a therapist who specializes and has had training.

44:55
and feels very comfortable telling you what that training is that they've had that prepares them to specialize in this area. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Great. Well, thank you so much, LaDonna. I always learned so much talking to you. I'm glad we could catch up again. Yeah, me too. I hope your training goes well and the book. Can people get the book now? Is it out there?

45:22
Right now it is in its final editing. Okay. And so by 1st of August. Okay. Great. People can look out for that. Yeah. Yeah. They can do a pre purchase with it. And then as soon as it's ready, the download will be there. If they just want to do a download of the PDF, they can do that. Or, you know, we'll be uploading it to Amazon and

45:52
Hopefully all your independent bookstores. want to encourage independent bookstore purchases to help our small businesses out. Oh, great. Great. Good. Well, thank you again and good luck with everything and take care. Thank you. It's so good to see you again. Yeah. Great to see you. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma.

46:17
They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody!

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