287: Relationships & AI with Trevor White

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Trevor White about relationships & AI.  Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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• Show Notes
• The Couples Therapist Couch Summary
• Transcript

The Couples Therapist Couch 287: Relationships & AI with Trevor White

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

Sign up for the webinar Inside a Couples Intensive: The 4 C's in Action on Thursday, April 16, 2026: https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_P24AEVQEQBOclzxNokvrEQ

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Join the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new 

In this episode, Shane talks with Trevor White about relationships & AI. Trevor is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and the Founder of Constellation Therapy, a practice focused on infidelity recovery. Hear how infidelity is changing in the Age of AI, how to help couples agree on the rules of their relationship, how to manage AI interactions responsibly, what language to avoid as a couples therapist, and the AI tools valuable for couples therapists today. Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• Renegotiating the "AI contract" in a relationship. What are you okay with, and what isn't okay?
• Emotional affairs with AI: sharing things with a chatbot that you haven't shared with your partner
• How an AI conversation can escalate over days or weeks just like an affair
• How fast digital technology has evolved 
• The hero-villain dynamic in infidelity work and the challenge of maintaining empathy for both partners

To learn more about Trevor White and Constellation Therapy, visit:

TrevorWhiteTherapy.com

ConstellationTherapySeattle.com

  

Show Notes

• 287: Relationships & AI with Trevor White
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [1:34] Upcoming Webinar Inside a Couple's Intensive: The Four Cs in Action on April 16th: https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_P24AEVQEQBOclzxNokvrEQ 
• [2:46] Introducing Trevor White, LMFT and Founder of Constellation Therapy, specializing in infidelity recovery
• [3:40] Trevor's background: Seattle-based, systemic orientation, inspired by Janice Abrahms Spring and her book After the Affair
• [5:49] How fast digital technology has evolved 
• [6:18] Early digital infidelity: Ashley Madison, online profiles, and how each new technology creates new avenues for affairs
• [7:15] How AI is entering the infidelity conversation 
• [7:44] The AI Instagram account case: is following AI-generated images of women a violation of relationship norms?
• [8:38] When the "affair" turns out to be an AI scam and what that does to the definition of betrayal
• [9:31] Why couples already struggle to make explicit agreements and how AI makes that harder
• [10:30] Premarital counseling and the need to get specific: sexual behavior, emotional sharing, and AI chatbots
• [11:00] Emotional affairs with AI: sharing things with a chatbot that you haven't shared with your partner
• [12:28] Defining infidelity as anything that violates agreed-upon relationship norms and how AI fits that frame
• [13:25] Confiding in AI about a secret bonus and a controlling partner
• [14:52] How an AI conversation can escalate over days or weeks just like an affair
• [15:22] Shane's teenage daughter using ChatGPT for breakup advice! Where's the line between helpful and problematic?
• [16:47] A constructive AI use case: a client uploading affair communications to understand what they need to apologize for
• [17:45] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [18:43] Transparency with your partner as a guiding principle for responsible AI use
• [19:38] Renegotiating the "AI contract" in a relationship. What are you okay with, and what isn't okay?
• [20:07] The backseat test: would you be comfortable if your partner could see this conversation?
• [20:36] The thornier question: sexual conversations with chatbots and how couples navigate that
• [22:34] Every couple defines infidelity differently. The therapist's job is to work within their framework, not impose one
• [26:17] Reframing violations as "trust wounds" rather than cheating and why language matters
• [27:42] Why therapists should be careful about labeling something as an affair before the couple does
• [28:40] AI tools for therapists: note-taking, session recording, and the ethical and legal questions involved
• [30:01] State-by-state compliance, informed consent, and the Washington state law currently in progress
• [31:31] The upside of AI note-taking: more accurate records, better treatment plans, less administrative burden
• [33:23] AI and differential diagnosis 
• [34:20] Practical AI uses for therapists: quickly learning about client situations without revealing protected health information
• [37:08] How personal experience with betrayal creates bias in the room
• [37:32] Know your AI story too. How therapists bring their own beliefs about technology into sessions
• [39:24] Trevor shares his own infidelity story: born nine months after his parents' reconciliation, and his father's later affair
• [40:51] The therapist's role is not judge and jury, it's helping couples find their own path to healing
• [42:16] The hero-villain dynamic in infidelity work and the challenge of maintaining empathy for both partners
• [42:42] Trevor's upcoming training at the Georgia AAMFT Annual Conference
• Connect with Trevor White & Constellation Therapy
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

 

00:00

There's so many ways that AI can help you learn something, learn a little bit about something very quickly.

 

00:10

Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now  your host, Shane Birkel.

 

00:26

Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy.  Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

00:56

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm excited to share with you an interview this week that I did with Trevor White.  And we talked all about how infidelity and trust  are evolving in the age of AI.  And I don't know if you've heard this coming into your sessions yet, but I've started to hear about how there's some jealousy around

 

01:25

people's  relationship with AI and the way they ask questions. AI can be extremely helpful and beneficial to our lives.  But it's interesting to kind of take a look at the way that can impact relationships. So we talk all about that. I won't say more right here because  Trevor did a good job talking about it during the interview. Before I share that with you, I wanted to  let you know again

 

01:54

I mentioned it last week in the podcast that I'm doing a live webinar this Thursday. What would that be? April 16th. I'm talking all about the way that I work with couples and I've been thinking about this for a long time. I've been documenting this for a long time, thinking about what am I actually doing in the sessions? What's my process? What's happening?

 

02:17

I think it's really important for couples therapists to be grounded in some sort of foundation or some sort of model that they're using as they work with couples that keeps them grounded.  I'm hoping that  me sharing this in the live webinar will be helpful to all of you. There's a link in the show notes if you want to register for that. I'll be sending out the recording afterward. The way to get the recording is just register for the live webinar.

 

02:46

and then I'll send out the recording to everybody. So even if you can't make it live, just register and then you'll get the recording.  Like I said,  I'm really excited for the webinar. I hope you can make it live. Just check the show, click the link in the show notes if you want to register. So I'm excited to share with you the episode today. Here is the interview with Trevor White. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and today I'm speaking with Trevor White.

 

03:14

Licensed marriage and family therapist and founder of Constellation Therapy, a practice focused on infidelity recovery. Hey Trevor, welcome to the show. Hey Shane, thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, absolutely. I'm so glad you're here. I'm really excited. We're going to be talking about how infidelity and trust are evolving in the age of AI. Yeah. And you know about maybe digital relationships, emotional affairs online.

 

03:40

So I'm really excited to get into that, but why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about yourself?  Yeah, yeah, like you said, I'm based in Seattle and I'm originally from Southern California. So I moved up here  and went to grad school at Seattle Pacific University. And I've done work in a number of different uh clinical contexts from community mental health to working with incarcerated populations to now private practice and group practice. m

 

04:06

It's really a level we do and  I'm a marriage and family therapist. So I have this kind of systemic, you know,  orientation that guides much of my practice.  But,  you know, about 10 years ago now, I saw a presentation by Janice Abrams Springs, who was one of the  leading thinkers on infidelity. It really changed my uh focus clinically because I was very inspired by what she was talking about.

 

04:33

I wanted to work more with couples dealing with infidelity and failure recovery. And I found it to be a really meaningful experience in my professional life. Yeah, that's great. She wrote, uh, is it called after the affair? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Uh, she's been, uh, she was on the podcast like early on, like many, many years ago, but she, yeah, she's a great speaker and you know, some, someone who I think was elite really like at the forefront of helping

 

05:00

us about how we think about infidelity and how to work with infidelity. Yes.  Yeah.  She is, she's wonderful. And so she was really inspired a lot of the work that I do. Yeah. And,  it's interesting. I don't know if I should, I feel like, um, I had this experience with her where, uh, or, like her assistance or whatever,  after we recorded the podcast and, and, you know, this was maybe like 2018 or  2019.

 

05:29

Right. And they were asking me to send  like a computer disk, like a physical. Oh, right. Disk. Yeah. Yeah. Something to save the interview to send to them. You know, so they would have a copy of it. Right. Right. And, you know,  not even those.

 

05:49

kind of old fashioned even at that time. Yes, it was. And it's amazing how far we've come in the last two years. I feel like I wanted to say that because  I thought of that. It's kind of geared toward our conversation, which  is how fast em this digital stuff is evolving. Right.  Right. Means for relationships. So let's dive into some of that stuff.  Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of interesting. You mentioned right at that time, you know, I probably saw her a couple of years before that. And what she was focused on

 

06:18

at that moment was  people that had  relationships that they were creating like online profiles, right? know,  while they were married and, you know, meeting other people and Ashley Madison, right? You're being a being, you know, the kind of thing. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that was kind of like the, you know, the hot issue at that point in time where people were  intentionally  engaging in affairs oh via that platform.

 

06:46

But, know, as, as every technology advances, right, it presents new challenges for us as couples therapists. And  certainly when it comes to infidelity, you know, uh, new, new technologies create new avenues for people to connect, right? You know, and, and a lot more can happen now that's very private, right? You know, and that's so much of the challenge when it comes to invalid, these kind of  overt or covert, you know, violations of norms in a relationship or of the monogamy in a relationship.

 

07:15

And there's just so many more ways that can happen now. Yeah. Well, I'm really curious, you know, when you  talk about how our trust is evolving in the age of AI, you know, I'm trying to, I was trying to think what, how, what does AI have to do with infidelity?  and now, you know, I'm really curious to learn more about that. Totally.  Well,  it's certainly, you know,  has presented itself in a number of different clinical cases that I've worked with and, know, has inspired a lot of

 

07:44

just kind of philosophical thought for me.  you know, one example of person who was bothered by the fact that their partner was  following all of these Instagram accounts, there were clearly artificial intelligence created images  of women, you know, that were, you know,  scantily clad or naked.  And the argument the person made was like, well, this isn't another person. I'm not comparing you to another person. This is an artificially.

 

08:11

created image, you know, that that isn't what we talked about with a degree on no pornography. But this person said this isn't pornography. This isn't a person  and you know, kind of leads you down this kind of philosophical rabbit hole of like  what what is a person what constitutes a violation  of this kind of contract in a relationship, right? You know, and there there's been a number of other situations I've run into like that where

 

08:38

Sometimes where people are kind of engaging with her in a relationship with someone that's inappropriate, but they find out that the person is AI generated. It's like a scam or something like that, you know, that's trying to get them to give them money.  There's, you know, things like this that really just change the complexion of the conversation, right? You know, it's not just about you engaging with a affair with your coworker or looking at pornography. It's all of these other kind of components about what

 

09:08

What is, you know, is it a violation if  it's not human? How do  you make sense of that? Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like people do a bad job already of, know, couples do a bad job of sort of talking through what the agreements are in a relationship. I mean, there's a lot of assumptions that we make. Totally.  You know, like, we're like.

 

09:31

For example, we're not going to date other people. That might be an assumption in a monogamous relationship. It's probably important to check out and make sure they are both on the same page about that. But even something like using porn, I've had couples where  one partner didn't even realize they were doing anything wrong, and the other partner had a strong feeling about it.  And trying to bring that to the level of a conversation and an agreement between the two people.

 

10:01

is so important. And you know, when you start talking about these AI things,  like more stuff that people really need to consider and think about and make agreements about to make sure that they're on the same page about how they're thinking about it. Absolutely. And I think about this, I do, you know, do like pre-marital counseling and something I really like to talk about like openly with people like, so if we are going to engage in any sort of private sexual behavior, if you're going to masturbate or look at pornography,

 

10:30

What is what's acceptable or what's allowed, right? You know, like you're saying the therapist now it's useful to get more specific, you know, in terms of what  that looks like. Now there's the sexual component, but there's also the emotional component. A lot of people are turning to AI and chat bots to be able to express things that they are very concerned about emotionally, things that they feel. And it's there's an intimacy that is developed, right? You know, because they're sharing things that they don't share with anybody else, including their partner.

 

11:00

And that's something, another kind of betrayal of trust that I'm seeing a lot of, right? You know, where the partner's like, well, you're sharing something with chat GPT or, you know, name your chat bot that you have not shared with me or you,  you know, had not discussed.  And that's really hurtful, even if it's not another person. Interesting. Yeah. And it doesn't even have to be  sexual, you know, it's like,  and I've been using chat GPT a lot  and I love it.

 

11:30

And Chad GPT makes me feel really good about myself. uh Yeah, right. That's like the normal programming or if I said something at one point or whatever. Right. Like, you know, I'll be brainstorming ideas for something and it'll give me this feedback like, Hey, you're on the right track. You're doing a great job. Maybe this, this, and this. Yes. And I can see how that you could slide into some really  like kind of personal conversations. I mean, this feels really

 

11:59

human almost when you're  communicating with it. Absolutely, absolutely. I think that's the challenge in so many relationships these days that  people run into this and they don't necessarily know what to do with it. So like what so often happens for therapists, like us is that people come to us and then say like, well, what do you think?  Like, can you then judge and decide and tell us like,  what is right or wrong here?  And  for me,  there's this really wonderful article Adrian Blow wrote, he's the current.

 

12:28

AMFT uh president, uh where he kind of  summarizes a lot of really great infidelity work, you know, and he has this great definition, which is basically like anything, infidelity can be anything that violates the agreed upon norms of a relationship,  you know, a sexual or emotional encounter with someone else that violates those norms, right?  And so when you think about it within  that kind of context,

 

12:56

an AI relationship could certainly violate some of those norms, but it may be as an invitation for us as therapists to help  help couples renegotiate what those norms look like, or really look at like, is there a role artificial intelligence plays? Or do we just say that that's not something we want to engage in at all? And that's that's always my hope or what I try to invite, you know, clients and couples towards with when they are bringing this into my office.

 

13:25

Can you give an example  of something  that, you know, a person might be communicating with AI about that that could feel hurtful to their partner? Yeah, right. Right. So like, you know,  I just got this bonus and I'm really worried because my partner  is, you know, very controlling when it comes to money and I don't want to tell them about it or I need to figure out how to not tell them about it. You know, something that is like,

 

13:55

very personal  and that is about their partner, right? And this is so, so many times I know, I'm sure you've heard in couples that are recovering from like infidelity or like an emotional relationship, the person is communicating about their wife or husband  with this other person in a, really personal way, right? You know, that violates that trust and is a big, big betrayal.  So that's the kind of thing people will turn to AI and discuss.

 

14:24

Yeah. And for those who haven't used AI, mean, if you put that, if you type that in, like, Hey, I just got a bonus and my wife is really controlling with money and I'm wondering what to do in this situation.  AI will give you a lot of good advice and it will get, you know, it'll encourage sometimes depending what platform you're using, it'll encourage you to keep talking about the situation. Like, Hey, have you thought about this in this? And have you thought about this in this? So I can see how.

 

14:52

You know,  it's  totally be like one quick one off answer. It could end up going for like half an hour and it feels like a full conversation about totally or days and days or weeks and weeks. Right. Like like an affair.  Right. You know, if you feel that really positive feedback and you feel like this is a safe, haven't felt safe to express myself maybe in the relationship in a while. And you feel that all of a sudden,  you know, it's going to be challenging to move away from that. Right. You know, and that's how it can.

 

15:22

development is something more significant for people. It's funny, my 15 year old daughter  was going through a breakup with her boyfriend. Oh yeah. And she let me know  that  she was using chat GPT to give her advice about, know, like asking things like,  Oh,  I feel like texting them today. Do you think I should like, what should I say? Yeah. Yeah.  And  I,  um,

 

15:50

was, you know, I was a little bit concerned as a parent, but everything that I found out that chat GPT told her, I was very pleased with. was like really good advice. um And she was like, this is really helpful. I feel like I have like a therapist helping me through the situation. you know, I, part of the reason I posed that is just to say like, you know, how, if I'm someone

 

16:17

who is thinking about using AI to talk through those things or if I've started using that and it's issues about my partner or something like that, how do I manage that in a way that's responsible? Because maybe there's some helpful things I can get from that, but like, how do I know where the boundary is? Yeah, and I think about that with any of these technologies, you know, there's opportunity for us as therapists, you know, to be able to use those tools, you know, in a helpful way, right? There's another

 

16:47

I worked with where they use chat GBT. They had had an affair with another person, but they kind of uploaded their communications with this other person to chat GBT and they asked for advice about like, what do I exactly need to apologize for a tone for with my partner? If I'm wanting to take ownership for this, where have I violated our norms in our relationship and

 

17:15

How have I hurt them?  And that was super helpful, right? You know, like that sort of thing or drafting, helping with letters  to, you know, kind of  take ownership and for, you know, kind of move towards forgiveness.  Those are things that I think are really wonderful tools that we should encourage our clients,  right? Yeah, Building a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients.

 

17:45

That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentials within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment. Plus, when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform.

 

18:15

Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. One of the things I think as therapists, oftentimes we approach it like from a place of non-judgment, like there's no right or wrong. Right. Part of what I'm thinking is helpful in these situations is  transparency with your partner, right? Where you're sort of like, Hey,

 

18:43

I've been struggling with this and this and I've been using chat GPT to help me think through it. Totally. Or something like that. mean, is that a good way to sort of figure out what the boundaries could look like? Making sure that you're kind of transparent with your partner, even if you're talking about them. Absolutely. with them that that's what's happening. Yeah, I think in so many of these situations, right, if we can kind of talk about like what we're wanting to accomplish, right?

 

19:09

people will identify when they've had, after they've had an affair, there's been a trust wound or betrayal. Like, hey, I was feeling really lonely, right? know? That's a totally legitimate thing to be feeling inside of a marriage, right? You know, obviously if we talk about that ahead of time and then we're able to find adaptive ways to handle that, right? There's a lot of directions you can go. And same thing with, if we're kind of helping couples renegotiate their AI contract, so speaking their relationship, trying to think about what are you okay with?

 

19:38

Right. Me discussing with, with, any, any sort of AI, what are you not okay with? Right. Can we identify that and make that a clear boundary?  Yeah. And that could be hard to predict what, you know, naming everything that you're okay with or not.  Right. And I think that's where the agreement around transparency is helpful. Not that you have to like  share every little thing, but it's sort of, it's sort

 

20:07

You know, I heard this one time  this was about like  emotional affairs in general.  This idea that you should feel like if your partner was in the backseat of the car, Something that they would feel comfortable with the conversation you're having with this friend. Yeah. And maybe that could be applied to  AI as well. Sort of. Yeah, totally right.  But like then there's this other kind of tricky thing where it's like you don't necessarily have that same role of like

 

20:36

you talking to your individual therapists, right? Or sharing things with them, right? And some people use  AI for therapy or paratherapy, I guess, right? know, purposes. And that's, think that that's, that's the emotional side, right? I think where then it gets, you know, the other thing that's thornier  for people is the sexual side, right? If you're engaging in sexual kind of conversation, you know, with the chatbot, which happens a lot, right? You know, these days, uh you know, that, that's again, where we kind of help.

 

21:06

people renegotiated that and some people might say like, okay, I've thought more about that or I've looked more into that and it doesn't bother me, right? It feels like, you know, it's it's something that is totally separate from our sexual relationship and does not does not impact it, right? You know, like some people feel about pornography,  but that's the hope. I think that we can kind of help them walk through and renegotiate what some of those terms might mean for themselves, right? Yeah. Yeah. You make a good point though about if I  like to go back to your

 

21:36

example of,  get a bonus. I feel like my partner's really controlling with money.  And I'm trying to make a responsible decision.  I'm  loving of my partner. I'm not trying to do anything wrong, but I'm trying to sort of figure out how to manage this situation. Where's that line between this is like emotionally violating something versus this is me just talking to a therapist and I have my privacy.

 

22:06

Right, right.  And that's, I think, the thing that we we discover in this work, just like every every client, every family system is  totally different. Right. You their attitudes, their beliefs about these things are, you know, so diverse. Right. So we got to work within those  and better understand. mean, that's always the thing I try to think about is there's not just one definition,  you know, of cheating or infidelity.  You know, it's it's it's custom fit to.

 

22:34

the family and the couple that you're working with. And that's what we have to understand and work with. Yeah, I was just going to say, you know, I think that there are a lot of these types of topics in our lives as human beings. Yeah, right. Where it is kind of gray. And that's one of the things that we help people with a lot in therapy. Totally right. You know, and that maybe that speaks to  the  ability of a human being to sort of

 

23:02

like as a therapist to be able to help people kind of talk through some of these things or  some of these things  that I don't know, Fay, I can't maybe they can  already. But yeah, I mean, there is a human element that  I think is what helps me sleep at night. I know so many people are worried these days about their  professions and how they'll be impacted by artificial intelligence, but especially something like couples therapy. We have an ability to, you know, in training to kind of help people.

 

23:30

You better understand. Okay, why does that bother me? Is there a way to repair this breach now that has occurred in the relationship? that's,  yeah, that's what we do. I was going to ask you, there was this phrase,  digital relationships. What does, what does that mean? Yeah.  I think people talk, think about that in different way. So certainly, you know, if you have a sexual relationship with an AI chat bot or,  know,  something of that nature, then that's one thing,  you know, if you

 

23:58

follow an OnlyFans account, right? And you're giving money to a person on a weekly consistent basis, people would define that as a relationship, right? Then there's other people that go further with that where they post about something on Reddit and they connect with someone that's in the comments and the messages start to escalate into a more emotional or sexual territory. There's a lot of directions that that ways that can manifest. Like we said at the beginning,

 

24:24

You this used to look like the Ashley Madison thing or setting up a dating profile and connecting with people while you're in a relationship. But  that's how I kind of think about or define digital relationships. OK, it's so interesting, too. mean, the possible there's so many possibilities out there. Yeah, things that things that we probably haven't even thought of yet. Yeah. But I mean,  I feel I wonder. I'm thinking about the difference between like.

 

24:51

If I found an old high school friend on Facebook, we started having really personal conversations about what's going on in our lives these days.  That's obviously something that I've heard in couples therapy that  people struggle with, that  their partner finds out and it feels like an emotional affair kind of thing.  That's very different than if I like the other thing I've heard, which is like,

 

25:21

people going into like Instagram comments or Tik Tok comments,  say like people actually commenting on someone else's comment and being like, Hey, you you look really attractive or something like that. Right.  Right. He's like, there's no possibility for any kind of personal relationship with this person, but there's almost this sort of like strange sense of like, I don't know, you know, getting attention or from this person.

 

25:49

some sort of psychological need, you know, trying to be met by doing that. And  I think, you know, there's all kinds of ways that those couples show up in our office and are looking for help and wondering like, what's going on? What's okay? What's not okay? How should we think about this? know? Yeah, absolutely. And that's kind of what I found. I've been  doing this now for over a decade and it's evolved so much, right? When I was first meeting with people, it's like, okay,

 

26:17

maybe not a more obvious situation like an affair with a coworker, right? You know, or you know, like an old high school flame or a previous girlfriend or someone you met  that had became something physical and sexual. Now there's just like all of these things that are so subjective, right? And that's the thing I  just try to get curious about with the person that's wounded, the wounded partner in these situations.  Like how does this impact you or affect you? Like what is the nature of the

 

26:45

Where does it hurt? What is the wound that you experienced when your partner commented on this?  You know,  and I try to kind of frame it as opposed to like infidelity or cheating, more as like a  trust wound, right? Cause trust wounds can happen of varying degrees in magnitude and in every relationship, that's super normal, right?  So trying to frame it that way so that it doesn't become you, cause it gets really thorny when you you get drawn in as the therapist to

 

27:12

decide is this cheating or not, right? I try to avoid that conversation. Yeah. Do you avoid the language of affairs or infidelity all the time? you saying or like in using the trust wound instead or what? How do you see that? It depends on the client system. If they're using that both using that language and then I will use it too. Right. But if they're not using that language, I try not to introduce it. Right. Because, know, as a therapist, you have a ton of power.

 

27:42

right, you know, and if you are proclaiming that that's what happened here,  then uh they'll run with that, right, you know, and that'll change the nature of the therapy from there on out. Yeah, I think that's really helpful. And it's really considerate of the people we work with  because I've used different language. I've used, you know, infidelity, betrayal, and I've had clients give me feedback like,

 

28:10

Hey, that doesn't feel right. Like the right way to describe it. Right. Right. And I think that's important to kind of honor what they totally what they how they see it. And I like that trust wound.  You know, that feels like something most people could resonate with. And  even then you could check with them and say, like, does that feel like the right way to write? know, right. Yeah. And they everyone has different ideas or thoughts about that. Right. You know, but you're trying to work within that is important.

 

28:40

Yeah. I'm wondering too about, you know, you might be a good person to ask about this.  I don't want to get us off track if you that's okay. It's topic too. Yeah. But, I'm wondering about all the therapist sort of platforms,  uh, you know, that are using AI to help them with their notes and their sessions.  Like that.  Um,  if you have any thoughts about that. Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's obviously, you know, going to be a huge part of our field.

 

29:08

as we move forward, right? Just like  any advanced technology, like that's essentially what we're talking about. Technology evolves, the work of therapy evolves with it, right? You know, whether it's the work you're doing with clients or  the way that you, you know, do the work yourself, right? So, I mean, you know, I was around when EHR became a huge thing, right? You know, it's like, okay, we're gonna do this all on our computer. What are you talking about? I gotta have files and you know,  all that stuff, right?

 

29:34

Um, and you know, AMFT and so many of these other professional organizations  are kind of updating their code of ethics to include, you know, kind of artificial intelligence and how you use it, especially with note taking. So  it certainly seems like where we're going. Um, but technology moves faster than policy always. Right. So,  you know, we, we just need to, as therapists really keep up to date with if we're going to use any of these tools.

 

30:01

you know, what is our state saying about it, right? That's the primary thing, right? Because there's not likely going to be a federal law. It's probably more going to be a state law, state by state with your license, you know, what you have to do to stay in compliance, right? So in Washington state,  that looks like, you know, receiving consent, right? You know, from the client, including in your informed consent, if you're going to use artificial intelligence, you know, note taking tools. uh

 

30:28

and then kind of verbally following up with them. But there's currently a law going through Washington state right now where you might need to follow up every session, right?

 

30:37

according to conversation.  So  I think about any of these things as tools,  but I generally think  you wanna be really thoughtful about updating your practice so significantly with including a note-taking tool like that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've talked to a lot of therapists who are really uncomfortable with it. Yeah, right. And I think it is just sort of  a...

 

31:01

um, getting used to it kind of thing. I think in the future, everybody will probably be using it, but it's good to be really, really mindful of how the confidentiality works with all of that. Absolutely protecting clients, you know, but at the same time, like if there's a program that can record my conversation with the other person, right. And write up a more accurate note that I'm even capable of remembering, right. That's amazing. Like that's a cool.

 

31:31

thing that could be super helpful for the treatment plan and for everything else, you know, insurance compliance, all these things that therapists really don't like to do.  Right. You know,  there's there's ways that it can be positive, right? You know, but but, you know, we got to be thoughtful and not, you know, just kind of rush have long into anything. um So I do  I use simple practice as no taker and I do really enjoy it. I found it's been  adaptive to my, you know, style and, you know, the feedback I've given it. So

 

32:01

Yeah, like we're saying, AI  presents challenges clinically and  legally, ethically, but it also  provides opportunities. Yeah.  Is that what we're talking about, or is there anything else  to it as far as the AI program recording your conversation and then giving you uh

 

32:24

giving it to you back in the form of a notes or an out, you know, sort of what you talk about. know that there's some therapists that are, you you need to make sure you're careful about not like, you know, typing into chat, GPT, a bunch of protected health information by your client or asking for intervention ideas or, you know, doing things like that. That's I know some therapists that, know, that's that's where trouble has existed for people. Right. You know, and that's that's not kosher. Right. But

 

32:53

But the note taker and those elements I think are really helpful, I found.  Are there AI programs that are actually weighing in on  the diagnosis that should be administered to a particular client? I don't know about that currently, but I'm certain that that's going to happen in the future.  Right. You know, my mother-in-law is  a retired OBGYN and she was talking about how she was reading about differential diagnoses, right? You know, that they are really helpful.

 

33:23

the medical field. So I think that that's certainly something that could happen, right? You know, as we move forward, at least give you ideas  about how to move forward with, with diagnostic criteria. Yeah. And again, it's like something that could be really helpful,  but at the same time, something  in my mind, feels like I'd really want to make sure there was like a  human, right. that over. Totally.  Right.

 

33:51

Yeah, I think that that's and you know, there's a lot of I think very valid feedback about cultural bias when it comes to AI, right? How it has been developed and the researchers that are working on it, right? You know, if they're inclusive of different kind of cultural experiences, and that's so much of the training we get, right? As therapists, which is why, again, it's in my mind, always a tool, right? That you can use, but you know, not something that does all the work for you, right? know? Yeah.

 

34:20

Are there other things that you could you think of that therapists can use AI for to be helpful in their lives? Yeah, I mean, I think about  or their relation or people in their relationships. Totally. You know, I think, you know, there's so many ways that AI can help you learn something, learn a little bit about something very quickly. Right. You know, and as therapists, we're presented with information or  situations that our clients run into.

 

34:48

all across the board, right? So it's good for us to be an  inch deep and a mile wide  on all of these things, right? And I think that AI is really useful for that.  Explain to me more about this situation, right? Or like, hey, a client is dealing with a tax lien as a stressor. Explain a tax lien. does that work? know, things like that. Things like that are really.

 

35:16

ways that you can educate yourself very quickly about subjects that your clients are dealing with, right?  You know, and without revealing protected health information,  right? And so that's kind of another area I think about, you know, being really helpful. Yeah, yeah, that's great.  And that's the, that would be the danger is  if you reveal too much identifying information.  As long as you remove that, you've asked a lot of

 

35:45

various questions about how to work. Totally. Well, I love even just learning what's a tax lien or these are things going on in this person's life that I can learn more about. I imagine also even asking what are some ideas for a date night for couples or something. Totally. That's so much of what our... Yeah.

 

36:12

what our clients look for from us, right? And where it's useful to think about date nights for people that have ADHD, right? Things like that, right? This is where this is a useful tool, right? I totally understand it. And I don't think that I try not to be alarmist about any of these types of things, but there's a lot of people that really concerned about using AI, right? For a lot of very valid reasons.

 

36:39

You know, but there there's these benefits that I think, you know, hopefully people can can dip their toe into and see over time Yeah Yeah, this is really a eye-opening Any anything else we should be talking about or thinking about? Just in this whole digital conversation Right. I think I think the main thing I try to think about when I do trainings around infidelity really encourage therapists to think about like what your infidelity story is, you know

 

37:08

is everybody has an experience  where they experience betrayal either directly or, you know, peripherally  in a fan inside of a family system  that really informs and creates biases for them. Right. Yeah. So it's a valuable thing to think about as you're doing this work or approaching this work with couples. Like, what is your infidelity story and how does it impact some of your approaches here?

 

37:32

And you you could think about it, same thing with your AI story, right? You know, if you have clients that are talking to you about this, you have your own beliefs, right? But yes, like all therapists, we try to leave our beliefs at the door, right? You know, so that where they're not  impacting our clients, you know, too directly, right? You know, and we can be open and really hear  what they have to say and try to explore, you know, possibilities with them. So  that's kind of the thing I really want to encourage people to think about is understanding within themselves.

 

38:00

where they might be experiencing counter-transference. That's great. It's funny because I was talking to a friend of mine recently and she's writing a fictional novel. Oh, yeah. And I was like, oh, are you using AI? And she  was disgusted by my question. She was like, not. I am not going to let that interfere with my creative process.

 

38:28

And then I was talking to somebody else the next day and  they were telling me about how wonderful AI was for them and how much it's changing their life and they're using it for their business and all of this stuff.  So just to speak to what you were saying, clients we're working with in therapy might have very different perspectives about that. Even within a couple, they might have different ideas about it.

 

38:55

It's important and we have our own biases that are going to come in about that. I'm curious when you say, you know, the way we've been impacted by infidelity like that  bias, you know, what's an example of how, you know,  those relationships are going to impact the way I'm showing up in the room? Totally. Yeah. Well, I think about myself, my personal experience, you know, my infidelity story, my parents got together in, you know, the 80s and

 

39:24

My mother  had an affair  before I was born  in 1988. had an affair in the springtime  and my dad immediately moved out of the house, moved back in with his parents. They attempted to go to therapy and they did therapy for about a month.  And then they decided to reconcile and stop going to therapy.  And nine months later I was born.  So I, I, my personal experience is I'm a reconciliation baby, right? You know, after an infidelity.

 

39:53

But then, you know, as stressors piled up in my family of origin, my father, you know, 13 years later had his own affair, right? uh In part because  what they had done originally to deal with the original infidelity was not  full. They did not do enough work, right? You know, around repairing the foundation of their relationship, right?  So I noticed that within myself that  I really have a strong bias towards like completing the work.

 

40:21

Right. You know, being really thoughtful about making sure that we are doing everything we need to do to get to a place of feeling really healed. Right. You know, before we kind of feel good about moving forward in the relationship due to my experience. And that's that's so much of how what brought me into this field in the first place. Yeah, that's I mean, that's so important for us, I think, therapists, just in all aspects of our life. Right. You know, but especially when it comes to like sexuality and, you know,

 

40:51

pornography, masturbation, then of course the new digital uh things. Like all of us are gonna, you know, people have their own personal experience, beliefs about,  you know, what those things mean. Right. Right. Yeah. And it's not necessarily our role to be judge and jury.  You know, when comes to that, it's our role to help people figure out if there's a way to heal. Right. And so  we just need to be aware of what, how that's going to show up.

 

41:21

Yeah, that's great. That's a great reminder.  Yeah, and I do think, ah you know, I heard  other therapists talk about this.  If somebody  is looking for us to be the judge and jury, to make sure that we're not like taking them up on it. to say, right, know that totally they may be looking to us for answers, but I think  and maybe we can provide some.

 

41:47

some feedback about  things that have been helpful for other people or something like that. But I think so much of that is up to  the couple to of  talk through and make the agreements based on what feels right for them. Yeah, and this work, especially of infidelity, where  there seems to be this obvious dynamic of like hero and villain, right? They are going to want you to,  it's harder to kind of uh achieve that.

 

42:16

sort of empathic attunement, right? You know, with both parties that are dealing with really different and unique pain. And that's so much, I mean, that's what I think makes this work really dynamic and exciting.  Yeah, that's great. Did you say that you're doing, em you're teaching this or you're doing a training on this? Yeah, yeah, this summer I'm doing a training  for the Georgia Marriage and Family Therapy uh Annual Conference. um

 

42:42

I've done other trainings before and I'm always open for people that are wanting supervision around this. I'm an AMFT approved supervisor. So,  you know, I'm happy to do consults or things like that for people on specific cases they're  running into. But yeah, I know it's something I really feel very passionate about and want to, you  you know, I have  therapists that I supervise that I, you know, help work through these cases as well. So it's something I, I feel really drawn to. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. It's so important right now with

 

43:11

how fast the world is changing and all the AI stuff that's coming  in. We gotta be talking about this stuff. It's really important. Well, thank you so much. mean, I've learned a lot. I've learned so much.  Anything else that any other final thoughts before we wrap it up for today? No, thank you so much for having me on Shane. This has been a fun conversation and I'm always enjoy talking to other couples therapists and getting your great perspectives as well. I learned a lot too. So thank you so much.

 

43:40

Yeah, this is great. Yeah. Thank you. Well, I hope you good luck at the training that you're doing and hopefully we can catch up again at some point in the future. Awesome. Thanks for having me on the show. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks.  Visit HelloAlma.com  or click on the link in the show notes to learn more.

 

44:07

Thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody!