286: Working with Trauma & Couples Therapy with Dr. Janina Fisher

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Janina Fisher about working with trauma & couples therapy.  Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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• Show Notes
• The Couples Therapist Couch Summary
• Transcript

The Couples Therapist Couch 286: Working with Trauma & Couples Therapy with Dr. Janina Fisher

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

Sign up for the webinar Inside a Couples Intensive: The 4 C's in Action on Thursday, April 16, 2026: https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_P24AEVQEQBOclzxNokvrEQ

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Join the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new 

In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Janina Fisher about working with trauma & couples therapy. Janina is an Author, Clinical Psychologist, and Educator on the forefront in the field of trauma. Hear how trauma & therapy have changed over the years, how to help your clients without triggering them, why you need to use a therapy model your clients like, the similarities between therapy & parenting, and how to validate your clients’ experiences. Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• How trauma was understood in the late 80s and early 90s 
• The key distinction between emotional pain and trauma 
• The relational core of trauma
• Annie's example of "I'm a failure" and redirecting to the part
• The part that kept functioning through the traumatic environment

To learn more about Dr. Janina Fisher, visit:

JaninaFisher.com

Janina’s Latest Book: Embracing Our Fragmented Selves: A Workbook for Trauma Survivors and Therapists

You can also listen to Dr. Janina Fisher on Episode 252 & Episode 115 of The Couples Therapist Couch

Show Notes

• 286: Working with Trauma & Couples Therapy with Dr. Janina Fisher
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [1:34] Upcoming Webinar Inside a Couple's Intensive: The Four Cs in Action on April 16th: https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_P24AEVQEQBOclzxNokvrEQ 
• [2:34] Introducing Dr. Janina Fisher and her core idea: trauma is about effects, not events
• [3:03] Dr. Fisher introduced: creator of TIST and author of the new workbook Embracing Our Fragmented Selves
• [3:31] Dr. Fisher's background: 45 years in private practice, 30+ years in the trauma field
• [4:30] How trauma was understood in the late 80s and early 90s 
• [5:28] Expanding the definition: child abuse, domestic violence, and everyday experiences as traumatic
• [6:25] The key distinction between emotional pain and trauma 
• [7:52] Why adults minimize their trauma: "it happened but it's not a big deal anymore"
• [8:22] The real effects of trauma: shame, rage, fear, sleeplessness, hopelessness which are often misread as depression
• [9:49] The relational core of trauma
• [10:19] Why asking people to revisit traumatic events makes things worse, not better
• [11:41] Annie's story: waking up every morning with dread, and not knowing why
• [13:24] The importance of validating a traumatic past without reliving it
• [14:35] Trauma lives in the environment, not just the events 
• [16:36] Normalizing the survivor's experience: of course you feel this way given what you went through
• [18:02] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [18:58] Introducing the new workbook and the TIST model: the first trauma-informed parts treatment
• [19:30] How TIST was developed: helping clients other treatments couldn't reach
• [21:26] The key shift: focusing on effects rather than events, and noticing distressing feelings as parts
• [23:03] Why client buy-in matters 
• [23:32] The role of psychoeducation in building trust without demanding vulnerability
• [26:36] The epiphany: asking "tell me about your childhood" in a first session is the wrong move
• [28:02] Annie's example of "I'm a failure" and redirecting to the part
• [30:20] Interrupting the inner critic: "who wants to toughen up the parts that are afraid?"
• [31:41] The core TIST instruction: every distressing thought, feeling, or physical reaction is a communication from a part
• [33:19] The concept of blending: when you become consumed by a feeling and lose perspective
• [34:01] Why noticing a part causes it to relax: being seen as a reparative experience
• [37:21] The part that kept functioning through the traumatic environment
• [40:19] The neuroscience of noticing: activating the prefrontal cortex quiets the amygdala
• [42:10] How Shane applies this with couples: interrupting blame stories to notice the live interaction
• [43:42] The TIST frame in couples work: each partner taking responsibility for their own inner experience
• [45:08] Dr. Fisher reflects on writing the workbook and why compassion for parts is the heart of healing
• [45:58] The concept of unblending: learning to step back from a part rather than becoming it
• [47:55] Check out Embracing Our Fragmented Selves: A Workbook for Trauma Survivors and Therapists
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
What am I doing? I meet somebody for the first time. They can't possibly trust me. They've just met me. And then I ask them the most triggering question. Tell me about your childhood.

00:20
to the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Birkel.

00:36
Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

01:05
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Thank you so much for tuning in. Today I'm going to share with you an interview that I did with Dr. Janina Fisher, one of the most respected voices in trauma therapy. But before I get to that, I wanted to share something. Next Thursday, April 16th, I'm hosting a free live webinar.

01:34
called Inside a Couple's Intensive, The Four Cs in Action. If you've been following the podcast over the past few weeks and listening to The Four Cs series, this is where I'm gonna take it a step further. I'm gonna walk you through a real case from the beginning, all the way to the end and show you exactly some of the things I was doing or some of the things I was thinking about, some of the ideas from The Four Cs that you could apply to

02:04
the work you're doing with couples, all of that within the context of a couples intensive. So the webinar is free, it's live and it's one hour long. I'd love to see you there and you can register using the link in the show notes. The other thing is that the recording will be available afterward. So even if you can't make it live, but you want to see the recording, make sure you register because that'll be the way that

02:34
you can get the recording afterward. Now, uh for today's episode, I'm really excited about this one. As I said, Dr. Janina Fisher, we'll talk about her model, how trauma shows up in couples work, and a really great thing that she talked about, that trauma is about the effects of what happened, not the events themselves. So I think you're going to find this really valuable. So let's dive in.

03:03
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Burkle. And today I'm speaking with Dr. Janina Fischer, creator of Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment, TIST, and author of several books on trauma, including the brand new workbook called Embracing Our Fragmented Selves, a workbook for trauma survivors and therapists. Hey Janina, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I'm so glad you could. uh

03:31
to do this interview. Why don't you start by telling everyone a little bit more about yourself? Well, I am a psychologist and I have been working in the trauma field. Actually, I just celebrated 45 years in private practice. Oh, wow. That's little scary. Whoever thought that you could get that old? uh And I've been in the trauma field.

04:00
For 30 years now. Since I think 1990, more than 30 years. Yes. Yeah, that's great. I'm curious, thinking about 30 to 45 years ago, how has it changed in the way people talk about trauma? Were people talking about it in the same way? Were there trainings available? No.

04:30
The, the word trauma was brand new and most people didn't know what it meant back in the late eighties, early nineties, you know, except if we were talking about veterans or rape survivors. So it was understood that war and sexual assault were traumatic. The idea that

04:59
Oh, actually, child abuse is traumatic. domestic violence is traumatic. You know, that all came much later. So in 1990, 91, it was hard to convince people that that clients were suffering the effects of traumatic experiences.

05:28
Yeah, and I feel like, you know, like you're talking about if you go to war or something, and even if you experienced serious physical abuse as a child, people can kind of look at that and say, oh yeah, obviously that's traumatic for somebody. But I think, you know, a lot of what the way I understand it is that people have taken a look at even things that people consider normal day to day experiences can often be traumatic for children, especially.

05:57
and um understanding if they don't have somebody to process it with or open up and talk about their emotions, it's something that could affect them much further on in their life. Right. And the thing about traumatic experiences is they're not just distressing and painful. They are frightening.

06:25
So yes, people do suffer because their childhood hurts and the failures of attachment are emotionally devastating. And not having someone to process that with is very difficult. But that's different from trauma. In trauma, most children can't process it because they can't

06:55
find the words and who are they going to tell? It's not going to do much good to tell your non-protective mother and certainly wouldn't do any good to tell the abuser. So it's, it's, it's a different situation. And that's partly what we had to convince people about in 1990 because

07:24
In those days, in the world of uh psychiatry and psychoanalysis, the belief was that being sexually abused by a parent was not traumatic. It was just distressing. So it was a whole revolution to try to convince the mental health field that

07:52
actually sexual and physical abuse were traumatic for children. I'm curious to hear what you would say. I think there are a lot of people who would say, well, yeah, that's something that happened to me, but now I'm grown up and it's not that big a deal. How would you describe, why is it important for us to help people process trauma and take a look at how we were affected by it? Well, usually

08:22
The effects are so distinctive. I mean, not distinctive necessarily from other mental health issues, but the effects of trauma are not primarily flashbacks, not primarily connected to remembering. They're connected to the effects like being afraid,

08:50
even of people and situations that are familiar. Feeling shame, even in the absence of something, humiliating. Feeling rage instead of anger. Not being able to sleep. I'm just thinking depression, hopelessness, loss, know, loss of the sense of the future is actually a

09:19
symptom of PTSD, but usually it can present as hopelessness. And then people check off major depression. They don't think maybe these symptoms are the result of Right. Relationships. We're talking from the couples therapist couch here. so relationships are highly difficult.

09:49
Because when you've been hurt by humans, you're triggered by humans. Yeah. And I think that's important because like you said, a lot of times people aren't rethinking about the things that happen to them. Right. And they just may be experiencing depression or a lot of shame or having a hard time sleeping ways that it's showing up in their present day life. How would you talk about

10:19
ways in which we can help people begin to sort of like gently make suggestions about maybe this is connected to something that happened to you before. Well, that actually doesn't really work either because if they start remembering, they start

10:48
going re-remembering, I should say, the traumatic events, they get more symptomatic.

10:58
Right, contrary to what we were all taught to believe, if you talk about it, it will relieve it. That's not the case with trauma.

11:08
because talking about it is highly, highly triggering. So, and you know, most friends and family members just want the survivor to kind of shape up and, and not be so difficult. Right. And it's very confusing because people don't know.

11:37
why they're having the symptoms they're having.

11:41
So I'm thinking about a client of mine who I often talk about in lectures and in my writing. I call her Annie, not her real name, of course. She gets triggered by waking up in the morning because when she was a kid, she woke up to a world that was dangerous inside the house, outside the house, at school, at church, everywhere.

12:11
For years, she didn't understand why she woke up every morning with a feeling of dread. She assumed that it had to do with her husband. And she didn't blame it on her kids, but she definitely thought it's because of my husband, it's because I have an unhappy life and an unhappy marriage. She had no idea that the dread was a feeling memory.

12:41
And then she would have a hard time getting out of bed, which she also didn't know was a feeling memory because it was safer to be in the bed under the covers than it was to get up and face her mother, um, who was very abusive. She didn't know why she had such a hard time eating. She didn't know why it was hard to leave the house, why it was hard.

13:10
to be around other kids. mean, and to this day, she's not able to hold a job because she can't leave the house.

13:24
So it actually takes, you know, what I believe is that we have to help people acknowledge the, that the difficulties come from trauma without having to remember individual events. Okay. Because remembering individual events is triggering, but if not, there's something about just acknowledging, well, of course.

13:55
Of course, if your husband raises his voice, it scares you.

14:04
because your world was full of people shouting and yelling and being me. So we could acknowledge the traumatic past and also, this is great. I have a chance to, to share with me, you might kind of latest obsession, which is the following, you know, since the beginning of the trauma field, we focused on particular events, right?

14:35
whether it was sexual, physical abuse, verbal abuse, uh abandonment, neglect, and we forget that those events take place in an environment. So if you're a child growing up in an abusive family, you don't get abused every single day.

15:03
or every single hour of every day, but you're never safe.

15:10
And so we forget that our clients have been affected, not just by the specific events. They're affected by having grown up in an environment that was never safe. Because if on Tuesday, nothing happens, does the child feel safe? Right. Right. Because the child never knows.

15:40
Is the next terrible thing going to happen in five minutes in five hours in five days? Right The shame is there Whether it's a day that there is some abuse or not Yeah, it's the whole it's the whole thing Yeah Yeah, so I mean something

16:07
terribly abusive could happen to a child once a month or once every couple months. But they wake up every morning feeling the fear, thinking, you know, they don't know whether it's going to happen that day or not, but they're living with that all the time. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Well, and I feel like a big part of what you're saying, if we're working with people who are adults who experienced that during their childhood, it's almost like moving them

16:36
It's almost like, um, helping them feel like whatever they're experiencing makes sense. Right. It's not because they're a bad person or because they're faulty in some way. It's like you're, experiencing anxiety every day. makes sense that you're experiencing anxiety every day because of something that you went through. Right. Right. Right. Right. Because you grew up in a world that was very frightening. Yeah. So of course, of course.

17:07
You feel a lot of Mm hmm. Yeah. Right. It would have been stupid not to feel fear back then. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And I often say, you know, you survived and because you survived, we're here talking today and you wouldn't have survived without that fear tapping you on the shoulder and saying, watch out, watch out.

17:37
Yeah. Yeah, that's so great. And it helps kind of move them into appreciating that part of that, that childhood part of themselves that went through that. Right. And appreciating the adult they became who survived it. Yes. Yeah. Okay. That's great. Building a private practice can be challenging.

18:02
Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment.

18:30
Plus when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. Tell me about the workbook that you just created. And I forget the book before that. Anyway, tell me about the resources that you have.

19:00
So this this new book, which I just happened to have right at my side, embracing the fragments itself. This is really a workbook based on my trauma-informed stabilization model, which is the first trauma-informed parts treatment.

19:30
And I, what I did was I, developed it over many, many years, trying to help the clients that no other treatment would help. mean, we went from having no treatments for trauma in 1990 to having all kinds of treatments like EMDR, like

19:58
somatic experiencing and sensory motorcycle therapy, internal family systems. There are a bunch of them now, brain spotting, trauma release exercises. And what I found was that each of these methods helped more people than we could help before, but not everybody. There was still a group of clients.

20:28
that seemed not to be able to tolerate any of our usual and favorite types of treatment. So I started creating a kind of hybrid model that had somatic elements. had a lot, was influenced a lot by internal family systems, of course, and by earlier parts models.

20:58
that came decades before internal family systems like ego state therapy, which is a hypnotic technique. And I found that these clients who were, and I think part of it is, come to think of it, the difference was that instead of focusing on events,

21:26
I focused on the effects.

21:30
All the other treatments that I listed, except I should say for the exception of brain spotting, are very event oriented. So this was an approach that asks people just to notice distressing feelings as parts, as communications from parts.

22:00
That was easy for them. It was amazing. These clients who couldn't tolerate talking, couldn't tolerate EMDR, couldn't tolerate somatic work, could tolerate noticing distressing feelings as parts. And then their affect tolerance got better because when they noticed the distressing emotion as the emotion of the part,

22:31
It felt less overwhelming.

22:34
So then I had a way for my clients to relate to their emotions, to relate to the experience of being triggered and have a sort of a working relationship rather than feeling overwhelmed. And by and large, the clients liked the model.

23:03
And I think that's important. We don't talk about that very much. We talk about, you know, success rates of different models, but we forget that if the client doesn't like the model, we can sell the product, but the consumer has to like it. love that. It's, it's, was thinking like, I'm going to force you to get better whether you like it or not.

23:32
Exactly. It's so important that whatever model someone is using really resonates for the client and they feel comfortable with it and feel good about what's happening. Exactly. And TIST has a lot of psychoeducation in it, which is something I learned back in the nineties because that was one thing we could do with our trauma clients is we could

24:01
at least educate them about what was going on inside them. And that, I think, is reassuring.

24:13
It helps with trust, because I'm not asking them to trust. I'm asking them to just hear some information and see if it resonates for them. the kind of core of the model is the relationship between the client and the parts. So there's a a less,

24:42
focus on the relationship between the client and the therapist and more focus on the client's relationships to the parts. That's great. Cause then they can take it forward without needing feeling like they need the therapist, which I think is a really good, it's an empowering feeling for them. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And that's good for the parts too, because

25:10
The feeling of dependence is a very scary place. Yeah. definitely think a lot of people carry those feelings of dependence and it could be sort of projected onto the therapist if we're not careful. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Because I think there's an unmet yearning for dependence.

25:39
coupled with a fear of the power that gives to the therapist. Yeah. Yeah. And I love what you were saying about psychoeducation. I I've been to some really bad therapy trainings in my life, you know, where the therapist is like, you know, tell me about your childhood. And the client has no idea, like, why are we talking about this? This could be very painful for the

26:06
client, what are we doing here? Why are we doing, you know, and I think that the psycho education is so important. It makes the client feel like I understand what we're doing. I understand why we're having certain types of conversations. I know what the goal is. I know, you know, maybe there's a timeline of how this is going to play out and I can be aware of what's going on. I think that's I agree that that's so important for people. Right. And I had this kind of

26:36
epiphany probably 20, 30 years ago where I thought, what am I doing? I meet somebody for the first time. They can't possibly trust me. They've just met me. And then I asked them the most triggering question. Tell me about your childhood or tell me about your trauma. And I just thought.

27:05
This is not the way to build a relationship. And so I would say, if there's anything that you need me to know about you or about your history, just tell me. uh then as we get to know each better, each other better, you'll, you'll know what you want to share with me and what you don't. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And again, giving like giving the power to the client.

27:34
to be able to have control of that. Right, absolutely. Absolutely. I used to say, you know, you didn't have control over what happened to you, but you do have control over who you tell, how much you tell, and even whether you tell. Yeah, that's great. Tell me a little bit more about, you you were saying when you work with clients,

28:02
you kind of help them identify present day parts and start developing and understanding our relationship with that. Can you say more about how you do that or how you label those parts or do they get to choose the labels for those parts or how does that work? Sure. So I'll just give you an example from uh a therapy session. The client,

28:32
Again, this is Annie, started the session by saying, I'm under terrible stress. This has been a terrible week. I feel like such a failure. And going on and on about how terrible everything is, mostly how terrible she is. And so I stop her and I say,

29:02
Notice, notice what part is saying I'm a failure.

29:12
And she's gotten used to this. Or she might talk about feeling hopeless. And I'll say, notice there's a part that's feeling hopeless today.

29:26
And could you just notice her?

29:32
Because most people get caught up in the feeling, whatever the feeling is, and then they can't recognize it as a part. They need, so I do a lot of this, I do a lot of notice the part and notice you noticing that.

29:56
Most people that you would think when I wrote about it, was hard because I realized that my clients are so used to my interrupting them and saying, who feels like a failure? Who's afraid?

30:20
Or the client will say something like, so Annie said something about, have to toughen up. I can't go around feeling afraid all the time. And so immediately I interrupt her and I say, who wants to toughen up the parts that are afraid?

30:44
And then she and then she realized, oh, yes, that's that's we call her this this part, the survivor part of her, the part that tried to always get her to push away feelings and act normal. Right. In an abnormal world, children have to act normal. Yeah. Right. That's part that's part of what goes on. And so this survivor

31:13
heart has keeps doing this, even though Annie is now 72 years old and there's nobody abusive in her world still. So that's, just go from whatever it is that the client, you know, what I say to clients is

31:41
Assume that every distressing thought, feeling, and physical reaction is a communication from apart.

31:52
And I got that idea from internal family systems. I mean, this is a very integrative method. And a lot of IFS therapists come to take the training and they say, this sounds a lot like IFS. And I say, well, I did borrow, this is what I borrowed from IFS. And I borrowed this from sensory motorcycle therapy.

32:19
And this from ego state therapy, right? It's all, all these elements are there because they serve a purpose in treating these traumatized clients and their traumatized parts. Yeah. That was great. The way you were asking who, you know, who's feeling hopeless, who's feeling this fear, you know, because

32:50
I know for myself and a lot of people, when the fear or hopelessness starts coming in, it just feels overwhelming. And it feels like, this is just me, or this is just true about reality. And you're creating some space and you're creating some ability for them maybe to take a step back and actually work with that without feeling consumed by it. Exactly. I couldn't have said it better. Beautifully said. Yes. Yeah.

33:19
And you know, that being consumed by a feeling is in IFS, it's called blending. And I use that concept in TIS, too. So often I'll say, wow, you really blended with that fearful part.

33:47
And then that's when we might go, notice the fearful part. She's fearful. Notice you noticing that part.

34:01
And the interesting thing is that when clients do this, when they notice the part and they notice themselves noticing the part as two separate states of mind, the fearful part or the hopeless part relaxes a little bit.

34:27
And even suicidal parts, so notice the suicidal part and notice you noticing the suicidal part. And usually the suicidal part relaxes a little when, because I think, you know, it's my belief that these parts, because these parts were never seen, right? Because the child went through

34:57
that lived through this traumatic environment without anyone really seeing that the child was in pain. Just being seen is a reparative experience. Yeah, if you think about it from a parenting standpoint, you know, imagining a you know, a little five or six year old who's scared and just being able to kind of like get down on their level.

35:26
and say, oh, I see you're scared, right? Like maybe that's all that needs to happen. So they know that they're being seen and validated for whatever they're experiencing. And it's like, if you go through that in your childhood, you never have anyone do that for you. There's probably still a part of you that's really scared and really screaming out like for somebody to see what's going on. Right. And especially if you're a child whose family environment

35:56
was terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. And some, and many of my clients, or I'd say even most of my clients had lived in terrifying environments. Yeah. But it's like, um, you're honoring, you know, so even if, if you're an adult and you're in therapy and you're, sort of validating the fear and making them feel like it's okay to feel that.

36:25
I feel like you're honoring what's coming up for them instead of because most of us just try to push it away or I don't want to feel afraid. I'm just going to push it away. But it's like invalidating your own experience. Right. And and the trick is how do we validate our experience without saying there's something to be afraid of? so so it really

36:52
it works so much better to be able to say, you know, this part is afraid. This part is afraid for a good reason. Sometimes I say to clients, just think for two seconds about the environment you grew up in and then ask yourself, does it make sense that this part is

37:21
Afraid yeah, they just say oh yeah, it makes total sense Do you label like a conscious self or an adult self or a mature cell or Do you just refer to it as you your your real self or something? Yeah You know in theoretically The adult self is what I call the going on with normal life part

37:51
Meaning that when kids are growing up in a traumatic environment, a part of that child keeps on keeping up, keeps going to school, keeps playing with friends, keeps doing all the things that kids do. While the traumatized parts are

38:21
in fear, they're vigilant, they're ashamed, they're trying to be seen and not heard. And so that instinct, this comes from the structural dissociation model of Anno van der Hart, Ellert Nannhaus and Kathy Steele, which is a very well-known model in Europe, not so well-known here.

38:50
I think that they tend to think of the going on with normal life card as being more of a false self, whereas I see it as coming from the instinct to carry on that we all have. I I've rarely met an adult whose life has been so uneventful that they didn't have times.

39:18
when they had to carry on in spite of. And so we all do have that instinct. Therapists know we have it because we rely on it. That's partly what I like about this model is that the parts are there to anticipate and protect themselves and the client from danger.

39:48
And and the adult person is there to keep carrying on with life Yeah But is that the part if is that the part that would say? It makes sense that you know if I identify a really fearful part of myself Is the carrying on with day-to-day life part is that the party's saying hey, it makes sense that you're really scared Well, you know what I think

40:19
I think that the way I see it, which may or may not be entirely logical, you know, I'm very brain oriented. And so one of the findings of the neuroscience research on trauma is that when we have trauma responses, when we're triggered, when we're threatened, the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that thinks

40:49
that watches, that observes, that notices, that part of the brain shuts down. And so I think of what's special about the part of us that keeps going on with normal life is the access to the prefrontal cortex. And that's why my treatment model begins with just asking clients to notice.

41:20
They don't have to have a sense of self. They don't have to have a sense of being an adult or being competent. They just have to start by noticing and noticing the parts, noticing themselves, noticing when they're triggered. It's really, you know, the thing that also we know from the neuroscience research is that when you stimulate this part of the brain,

41:50
here, the amygdala, the part of the brain that gives us the trauma responses, decreases activity. So it's actually calming and centering to notice.

42:08
Yeah.

42:10
Yeah, that's great. And I found that with couples too. I, I drive couples crazy because I asked them, I interrupt their stories about how it's the other person's fault. And I just asked them to notice their interaction. The interaction that they're having with the actual interaction in real life that they're having with each other. Yes. In my office. Yeah. So I say,

42:40
Oh, interesting. Notice when when he speaks, you're shaking your head and just notice that. then, sir, when she shakes her head, what happens inside you?

43:02
Yeah. Right. Because it's those transactions and the way that they trigger.

43:13
each other that I think is really at the base of couples problems. Yeah. I think, I imagine your model could be incredibly helpful for people working with couples because you're not allowing them to focus on their partner as being the problem. Imagine you're continuously focusing on, you know, what's going on inside of you for each person to kind of take more responsibility for what's going on inside themselves.

43:42
Right, right, exactly. Of course, I can't say that. I can't say, you know, you each have to take more responsibility for what's going on in you, because then they'll start up the story. Well, I'm only being this way because he as opposed to you are both like I say this a lot. You're both

44:10
Well within the range of normal in your responses, but you are triggering the shit out of each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's part of the art of therapy is just sort of being present and noticing those opportunities, but, not saying it in a way that's going to lead to people being resistant to the message. Right. Or feeling ashamed or

44:39
Criticized. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So um this is great. Do you want to mention your book again? I know we have to wrap up here, but everybody should go get the new book that you know, the new workbook. Well, I'm I'm prejudiced. I actually, you know, it's hard. you work hundreds of hours writing a book. Yeah.

45:08
And some days you hate it. And some days you think, oh, hey, this could be all right. But I ended up loving him. um Because I think because I was able to communicate that it's the ability to relate to these parts and to begin

45:37
to empathize with them and to have compassion for them that's at the heart of healing. And that can be so hard to do because when you're blended with a part, you can't have any compassion because you are that part.

45:58
And so it takes oh this really, not necessarily long in years, but it takes this very, very long process of learning to notice when we're blended with our parts, and then practicing, call this strengthening the muscle to unblend because

46:28
the automatic reaction of most people is to blend with whatever they're feeling. So uh I really appreciate, there are a lot of worksheets and one of the wonderful things the publisher did is at the top of the references page of this book, not a post you would look for it, there is a link to order the worksheets sent to you.

46:58
Yeah, so if anybody buys the book, they can use the worksheets just by printing them out on the computer. Oh, great. It's like a bonus that comes along with the book. Exactly. Exactly. And Pesci is the only publisher I know that does this because I think everybody else is trying to sell more workbooks. Certainly. But it's a great convenience.

47:27
It's so good for it was very helpful with my previous book because that was published during the pandemic. And so it made it easy. Therapists could print out the worksheets, email them to their clients, or we could, can print them out and have the copies at the office. Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah, that's great.

47:55
Yeah, and I'll just say it one more time so everybody can go look for it. It's Embracing Our Fragmented Selves, a workbook for trauma survivors and therapists. Yes. Yeah. Great. Well, thank you so much, Janine. I'm so grateful for you coming on the show and taking the time. I always learn so much from you. Thank you. It's such a pleasure to be able to have a conversation. All right. Yeah, hopefully we can catch up again soon. Yes.

48:24
The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye everybody.