280: The 4 Cs in Relationships with Shane Birkel

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this solo episode, Shane shares the 4 Cs in relationships. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 280: The 4 Cs in Relationships with Shane Birkel

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Join the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new 

In this solo episode, Shane shares the 4 Cs in relationships. Hear the common patterns couples get into, how to have compassion for each partner’s reality, how to help your clients keep curiosity in their relationship, why it’s okay for couples to disagree with each other, and what to say to your clients regarding each of the 4 Cs. Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• How honest feedback flowing both ways creates real emotional connection
• How to hold empathy while keeping your boundaries
• How becoming conscious helps couples regulate and create safety
• What inspired Shane to explore the "Four C's" framework
• How curiosity uncovers what's really underneath the surface conflict

Show Notes

• 280: The 4 Cs in Relationships with Shane Birkel
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [1:29] What inspired Shane to explore the "Four C's" framework
• [3:16] How couples get stuck: blame, defensiveness, and the fight-or-flight cycle
• [4:42] Introducing the Four C's: Consciousness, Curiosity, Compassion, and Connection
• [5:44] Consciousness: seeing the pattern instead of blaming your partner
• [7:11] How family of origin and nervous system patterns shape the way we show up
• [8:38] Are you reacting to your partner or to your past?
• [10:59] How becoming conscious helps couples regulate and create safety
• [11:58] Curiosity: questioning the meaning we make of our partner's behavior
• [13:53] How curiosity uncovers what's really underneath the surface conflict
• [15:20] Compassion: seeing your partner's suffering, not just their criticism
• [16:43] Self-compassion as the foundation for having compassion for others
• [18:38] How healthy self-esteem allows you to stay present when your partner is upset
• [19:07] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [20:04] Compassion doesn't mean agreement. How to hold empathy while keeping your boundaries
• [21:57] Making your partner feel heard while still advocating for your own needs
• [22:55] Connection: what it looks like when safety is finally established
• [23:55] Why couples stop telling the truth 
• [25:19] How honest feedback flowing both ways creates real emotional connection
• [26:17] Wrapping up: the arc from blame to consciousness, curiosity, compassion, and connection
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
think this is a mistake that therapists make where they try to rush to the connection phase too quickly and force people into things before they've created that safety.

00:17
the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Birkel.

00:33
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Couples Therapist's Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

01:02
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Couples Therapist's Couch. This is Shane Burkle. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and this podcast is all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I wanted to take some time actually for the next few episodes to really get into what I think

01:30
helps in couples therapy and what I think helps for relationships. And there's a really common dynamic that I hear all the time when couples first come into therapy where one partner is trying to talk about their feelings and what's going on for them. And the other partner immediately gets defensive.

01:56
uh starts trying to explain themselves about what happened. Right away the pattern is there. The pattern is right in front of me as the therapist going on in the room. I think there are specific ways that I've come to learn that or specific steps that I've tried to define. So I'm going to lay those out for you and go into some detail.

02:23
to kind of get from this place where people feel stuck. And I would say where people feel caught up in fight or flight and sort of uh unconscious of what's really happening in between them. And going from that to feeling connection, which is what people want. You know, there are different patterns that appear.

02:48
In this case, the one I just described, there's some sort of emotional expression happening. And to be fair, mean, sometimes it's coming out in a very harsh way. Sometimes it's very critical, criticizing, blaming, and the other person gets defensive or they just want to fix the problem. They want to explain it away. And then it kind of escalates and each partner becomes more convinced that the other person is the problem.

03:16
Both partners are reacting to something vulnerable inside themselves, but the way they show up makes that hard to see. I think each person wants the therapist to validate their perspective, but there's a challenge sometimes that if you agree with one partner, the other partner shuts down. If you stay neutral, the argument is just going to continue circling in the way that it always does. m

03:45
And there's a question of, what actually helps the couple move forward in these situations? And by the way, this isn't part of what I was going to say, but I think there are ways that as the therapist, we can move into compassion for each person's reality. And I'll talk more about that later. But over the years of doing this work, there's something that I've noticed. When couples therapy

04:13
is really working. are certain qualities that begin appearing in the room. And I've sort of simplified it down to four things. And I'm going to walk through these four things that I think really help shift the conversation for a lot of people. And all of them start with C. So I'm going to call them the four C's.

04:42
The first one is consciousness and then curiosity, compassion, and then connection. Couples therapy often begins with blame, but change happen as partners move toward more consciousness, more curiosity, more compassion, and eventually they experience the connection that they're seeking, which is why they're really coming in to therapy in the first place.

05:12
These are not.

05:15
techniques, these words are not specific techniques, they're qualities that begin emerging in the conversation when we're using the techniques and we're handling the conversations well. And when I would say when therapy feels like it's working. And so the first shift is into consciousness. it's part of it is helping the couple start seeing the pattern.

05:44
that exists become conscious of the pattern that's going on instead of blaming their partner. And some people would call it externalizing the problem, meaning like, can we get the couple to feel like we're on the same team uh and the problem is external to us and it's something we're working toward solving together. But I think the consciousness in my mind also involves becoming conscious of my own reality.

06:14
and what's going on within me. You know, there are some common patterns that people get caught up in, like pursue or withdraw, criticism, defensiveness, escalation, shutdown. And so we want to help people see the system that they're caught up in together, but we also want to help them understand and become conscious more about

06:43
In the specific human being that I am, why do I happen to be the withdraw and my partner happens to be the pursuer, for example? Why do I react in certain ways to things that are happening and other people reacting completely different ways? And all of us have beliefs. All of us have sort of like ways in which our nervous system

07:11
was formed growing up in our families. so moving into consciousness sometimes involves sort of looking at the family of origin. It could involve uh inner child work because the inner child is often a protector or if you don't want to use that language, we could use parts language. There's a protective part of people that come up. And this is like when people are in fight or flight.

07:41
They're moving away from consciousness. When you're in fight or flight, you're all about protection. You're all about how do I create safety for myself even if I have to be violent with someone else? I feel so stuck uh and unable to set boundaries that I'm willing to be harsh with another human being in order to come back to safety. That's maybe an illusion, but that's where people go in their minds.

08:10
The reason I say that's an illusion is that I don't think it's, unless you're in a physically harmful situation, I don't think it's necessary to use harshness, to use any sort of emotional abuse or manipulation. Anyway, but all of this is part of moving into consciousness. To become conscious, am I with someone who is really intending to hurt me?

08:38
Or am I reacting to something because of what I grew up in? For example, a lot of people grow up in families where they're told that emotions are a problem. Or they're not told it explicitly, but that's the message that comes across. When they feel sad or angry or have a strong emotion, they're told by their parents that...

09:04
let's just fix the problem or a good little boy or girl just keeps it to themselves. Or we don't talk about those things in our family. And there's a message of strong emotions are something to be avoided or strong emotions are something to be solved. And that's something that shows up in relationships. If that person's partner, as in they become an adult and their partner is trying to talk about their emotions,

09:31
or having strong emotions and trying to talk about what's hurtful to them, the partner often, if they grew up in that type of family, they're going to think, oh, this is a problem, we need to avoid it, or we need to fix it, or we need to get through it as quickly as possible. And that makes the other partner feel invalidated or dismissed or minimized. And so moving into consciousness is understanding what are the things that happened to me growing up?

10:01
that are making me show up in this way. And again, a lot of times when couples are really distressed, it's because they're in fight or flight. Because for a child, the safety, it's necessary to learn how to be in your family system to create safety. Like in the example I just gave.

10:29
A child has to learn how to not express their emotions in order to please their parents and maintain a sense of safety. oftentimes when we talk about fight or flight and we talk about what starts happening in relationships, even as adults, it feels like it's based in survival. And the level to which the feelings come in aren't necessarily equal to whatever's going on in the situation.

10:59
And that again, the more we can help people be conscious of that, the more we can help people sort of regulate their nervous systems and create safety for themselves and begin to have these conversations in a different way. Now, I feel like I'm already starting to get into the next, the next category, which is curiosity or the next step. You know, once the pattern is visible, once, once people begin to become conscious of

11:27
there are reasons why I am the way I am, there are reasons why I show up in this relationship in the way I do, and I'm becoming conscious of that, and there are reasons why my partner does the same, and I'm becoming conscious of the pattern that exists between us, then we can help people start becoming curious about this. Let's be curious, is it true that your partner wants to hurt you? Let's be curious, what happens inside you when your partner says something like,

11:58
I think there are a lot of things that once we help people become conscious and start regulating their nervous systems, then we can start helping them be curious about what, you know, one of the things I ask people a lot is what is the meaning that you are bringing to what's happening in this situation? You know, your partner is frustrated or upset because you didn't take the trash out yesterday.

12:26
Let's be curious about what is the meaning that you're making up about what's happening. Let's be curious about what are the ways in which you can respond, right? Once we identify the feelings, what are the options here? Let's be curious about what do you want to accomplish in this conversation? What would feel like you're getting what you need coming out of this conversation? And oftentimes when people are stuck,

12:55
in the pattern and their nervous systems are heightened and they're in that fight and flight, they don't have the ability to be curious. Right. And another thing about curiosity, it becomes very uh helpful because a lot of times people are stuck in sort of right and wrong thinking where, my partner's telling me that I'm doing it wrong and I feel like I have to, you know, people feel like it's almost like I have to read my partner's mind.

13:24
in order to solve the situation. And what I tell people is it's easier than that. I don't expect anybody to be able to read the other person's mind. If they're talking about their feelings and talking about what they're upset about, even if it's about you, talking about their frustration, the best thing you could do is move into curiosity. You don't have to solve it for them. You don't have to fix it for them. Just be curious. Tell me more about

13:53
what that feels like for you. Like, I'm so sorry I forgot to take the trash out. Help me understand what that's like for you. And oftentimes that enables us to sort of uncover things that are underneath the surface, you know? Partner A is probably not that infuriated about the trash not being taken out, but if we can slow down and move into that curiosity,

14:22
we could actually find out they're just really overwhelmed with work, with raising the kids, they've had a really stressful week. And then we can start moving into the next phase. Once I start becoming curious of what's going on for them, it's not about me protecting myself and being defensive about the fact that I'm busy too, which is why I forgot to take the trash out. It's about...

14:50
moving into that curiosity, but then I can move into the compassion. And that's the third C. I wanna move into compassion for my partner's experience. They're not just someone who wants to criticize and attack me. They're someone who's really suffering with life, with what's going on for them. We're talking about relationships that we choose. We're talking about someone you're choosing to share your life with.

15:20
This is someone, if you, if you know, I tell people this sometimes in couples therapy, if you truly feel like they're the enemy and they want to hurt you and they want to attack you, you probably shouldn't choose that person to be the one you're spending the rest of your life with. But once we move into curiosity, we can start to learn maybe what's underneath that criticism is something that's

15:49
more vulnerable, right? Maybe I can move into compassion for my partner's experience about what's going on for them and the reasons why they're struggling, right? And that curiosity is so important too, because I don't think it's ever really about what the, you know, oftentimes when I'm feeling, having a strong feeling,

16:16
My mind goes to who can I blame for this situation? oh Or people's minds go to blaming themselves for, know, oh, I always messed this up. I always do everything wrong. And the curiosity is about challenging those beliefs or those initial thoughts that come into your mind. And then, you know, the compassion has to happen for self and has to happen for others.

16:43
A lot of times people are harder on themselves and more shaming and blaming and criticizing toward themselves than they are toward anyone else. And the compassion is really about working with that shame and moving people into a healthy self-esteem, as some people call it, and moving into your ideal true self. We have to work on that.

17:13
the more compassion you have for yourself, the more you can stand in the face of whatever your partner is frustrated with and listen and have compassion for them. Right? Like if I, if I'm feeling really insecure and I don't have a lot of compassion for myself or self-esteem about the fact that I'm doing a good job in the world or I'm a good partner or I'm a good parent, then it's really hard for me

17:41
When my partner starts talking about how upset they are about the trash not being taken out, it's really hard for me to stay in that conversation because I'm going into a place of shame, most likely, where I'm feeling like, well, you just think I'm a bad person. Let me explain to you why I'm not as bad as you think I am. Right. That's one of the protective things. Right. Or it's touching on my own sense of.

18:09
of unworthiness or fear about who I am as a person, but also whether you are going to continue to love me or not. And moving into compassion for myself, moving into that healthy self-esteem is to say, my partner is upset that I didn't take the trash out and I take a deep breath and I think to myself, I'm working really hard at this. I'm trying my best.

18:38
think I'm a pretty good partner and it makes sense that my partner's upset, right? And I'm no longer focused on myself and self-protection. I can begin to move that compassion to the other and I can begin to think it makes sense that you're feeling upset because I forgot to take out the trash. And I totally understand you have a lot going on and this is just, you feel like this is just one more thing on your plate.

19:07
Building a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions.

19:35
and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment. Plus when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. Compassion also doesn't have to mean that you agree.

20:04
Let's say your partner is talking about a situation that happened and you remember it completely differently and you're thinking to yourself in your mind, like, are you kidding me? Does she really think I said that? You know, does she really think that I would do it that way? You know, and, or it could, it could be like something that you're trying to, a decision that you're trying to make. Like, uh, you know, one of you wants to, to.

20:31
Go one place for dinner and the other person wants to go to another place. Right, so compassion doesn't mean that you have to agree with your partner. That's important, right? Because some people end up feeling like a doormat or they feel like, oh, I just have to go along. Oh, you're saying I just have to listen to what they say and go along with whatever they want. The answer is no. The answer is I want you to listen with compassion and empathy and understanding and try to make your partner feel seen and heard and understood.

21:01
But at the end of the day, you don't have to do what they want. That's not what it's about, right? So I could say, I could move into that curiosity and have compassion for what's going on for them. And we still might have to struggle through making a decision that we disagree on. I may say, sometimes this is about boundaries where, let's say,

21:29
something like my partner wants more hugs and I'm feeling really like I don't want to hug that person right now at this moment. And so they're talking about their feelings of like, I'm feeling really lonely. Hey, I feel like hugs are important to me. I feel like we haven't been hugging much. And I can say, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry that you feel that. It makes sense that you would feel lonely. Hugs are really important. I'm so sorry, but I just, I'm not.

21:57
ready to give you a hug right now. ah But tell me more about what that's like for you. Right. So the goal is to make the person feel heard and seen and understood while we maintain our personal boundaries. And then and then you could switch right. Then I could have a turn to talk about why hugs are hard for me or what's going on you know ah what I need and what's going on for me. And it would be my partner's turn to to be the listener.

22:27
with curiosity and compassion. So once we begin to help people move through these different phases, then we can move to the fourth C, which is connection, right? Where partners begin, once partners start feeling heard and seen and understood, and they feel like the other person actually cares and has compassion for them, then they start slowing down the cycle.

22:55
Connection isn't something you can just force, right? It emerges when people feel that safety. I think safety is a big word for it, right? If I feel like the other person is really listening and I feel seen and heard and understood, I start feeling that connection with someone. I think this is a mistake that therapists make where they try to rush to the connection phase too quickly and force people into things before...

23:25
They've created that safety by doing the first three C's, right? But we have to help people move into consciousness, help people move into curiosity and help people move into compassion before we can get to the connection part. I think that's really important. Once we help people do this effectively, the connection grows a lot when people can tell each other the truth, right? It's like in the taking the trash out example,

23:55
You know, maybe my partner has tried to tell me they're upset about that a few times, but what happens in some relationships is that eventually my partner just stops even saying what they want or that they're upset about the trash. And it's sort of like, well, I'm just going to avoid the conflict. I just don't, I don't want to hurt my partner's feelings. So I'm not going to talk about what I really want anymore. And that's a really scary, bad place for relationship to get to.

24:23
uh Because then the information isn't flowing back and forth. It's really important that each person has a voice about what they really want in their life and in their relationship in order for the other person to really know who they are. You know, this is why some people sort of take the mindset that conflict is good for relationships. And I think what they mean by that is like,

24:51
It's really healthy for people to tell each other the truth about what's going on and how they're feeling and what they need. And if that's not happening, people start to make a lot of assumptions. And some of those assumptions might be right, but a lot of them tend to be wrong as well. So once we create the safety, people can begin to be honest with each other and learn how to listen to each other and give each other honest feedback and know that they don't have to give in.

25:19
And then it starts to flow back and forth. And that's the feeling of connection. The emotional openness, the feeling that you're able to be vulnerable with each other. It doesn't mean that you have to say everything that's on your mind. That's not what I'm talking about. And maybe I can get into more details maybe in future episodes. But I just want to kind lay out the premise in this episode to begin with.

25:49
Again, connection is something that emerges when people feel seen and understood. So over time, I've come to think of couples therapy as helping partners move from that criticism and blame and defensiveness towards consciousness, from consciousness to curiosity, from curiosity to compassion, and eventually toward connection.

26:17
In the next few episodes, I want to slow this process down and explore what each of these shifts actually looks like in real couples therapy sessions. Each of the next episodes is going to be one of these topics, right? So the next episode is going to be about consciousness. And then I'll do an episode on curiosity and then I'll do one on compassion and then I'll do one on connection. So in the next episode, I'm going to talk.

26:46
more deeply into consciousness, which is, you know, the moment couples begin seeing the pattern they're caught in and seeing the way they're bringing themselves into that pattern. All right. Thanks everybody. uh Let me know if you have any questions. You can always feel free to reach out. Take care. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

27:13
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Burkle and this is the Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye everybody.