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279: Why Do I Keep Doing This? with Kati Morton

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Kati Morton about Why Do I Keep Doing This?: Unlearn the Habits Keeping You Stuck and Unhappy. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 279: Why Do I Keep Doing This? with Kati Morton

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Join the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new 

In this episode, Shane talks with Kati Morton about Why Do I Keep Doing This?: Unlearn the Habits Keeping You Stuck and Unhappy. Kati is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT), Media Personality, and Author. Hear why our inner dialogue isn’t always correct, how to help your clients get unstuck, the importance of working on yourself, why it’s okay to have healthy differences, and the difference between love & codependence. Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

  • Why we keep repeating patterns we hate
  • You are the common denominator
  • Why people fall for narcissists
  • Why emotional intelligence wasn't passed down
  • The cost of staying in old patterns vs. the relief of leaning in

To learn more about Kati Morton, her latest book Why Do I Keep Doing This?, and her podcast Ask Kati Anything, visit:

KatiMorton.com

@KatiMorton on YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram

Show Notes

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00

Acknowledging the things that we do that we hate and the things that we do we're maybe embarrassed of is the first step to like a lighter life.

 

00:13

Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now,  your host,  Shane Birkel.

 

00:30

Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist's Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy.  Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

00:59

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. everyone, welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel. And today I'm speaking with Kati Morton, licensed marriage and family therapist, media personality, and author of the new book, Why Do I Keep Doing This? Hey, Kati, welcome to the show. Hi, Shane. Thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for coming on. Why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about yourself?

 

01:29

Yeah. So like you said, I'm a licensed therapist and I've been creating educational mental health content online since 2011. So just a few years.  And my goal is always just to educate and empower people so that they have the  information and the particular words to use to ensure they get the right help when they need it most. Yeah, that's great. And you have a really big following on YouTube, right? You have created a lot of videos on there. Yeah. I've been uh releasing every Monday.

 

01:57

pretty much without fail since 2011. There's probably been a few Mondays here and there I've missed, but yeah, we've been building our community for like 14, almost 15, 15 years this year. Wow. That's great. And tell me a little bit more about the book and what inspired you to write that specific book. This is my third book. Why do I keep doing this? And it's probably my most personal book. Most of my books were more prescriptive or more what I would consider like very therapisty.

 

02:24

Like here's what we know in research, here are some tools to use, here's some questions to ask yourself. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think that does have its place in the self-help space. In fact, I buy a lot of books like that. However, why do I keep doing this is more about my journey. I've been in therapy off and on since I was 15. I'm a big believer in it. Not only do I obviously have a career path in it, but I also am a utilizer of therapy. And I think...

 

02:50

A lot of people assume that therapists have it all together and we know everything and do everything just perfectly. And this book is  proof that we don't.  And that there are still things I'm figuring out. know, the thread that binds the entire book together is our illusion. The illusion of control. It's like our dance with control. And the fact that we try to keep it all together or I should speak personally. I try to keep it all together but in fact there's very little I have control over other than myself. And it's kind of my...

 

03:19

understanding of that and all the ways it's shown up in my life and all the things I still struggle with. Yeah, that's great. I mean, I think it's so important for people to hear that as far as  I mean, the ways that we get stuck that all of us get stuck the ways that we struggle, and no matter how much work we've done, or whether we're a therapist or not, that we still get stuck in these ways. And I think there's a secondary thing that happens where we start shaming ourselves about the fact that we haven't made more progress or something like that.

 

03:49

And it's just nice for people to hear that that's just a normal part of the process. Yes, agreed. It's like it's never linear. It's not A to B to C to D. Oh, yeah. Moving right through things and feeling so good.  Yes, there's progress. But I think in general, there's a lot of habits and patterns we have to break in times where we're kind of stagnant and wondering, you know, essentially the question like, why do I keep doing this? That's how the name came about is a conversation with my literary agent.

 

04:16

Lamenting about the the stupid things we keep doing and we don't know why we do them  and so I think we've all felt that before and been there before and  it is part of the process and it's like a lot of the book is just  Learning how to offer ourselves some compassion Like understanding where it comes from and then obviously like you can't just change it overnight. It didn't happen overnight  It takes time to untangle Yeah, that's great and I'd love to get into this idea of control a little bit more because you know, I feel like

 

04:46

We're adults, we're supposed to have control of our life. What do you mean when you say we're not, you know, people focused too much on trying to control things? Controls are very interesting. It's a very precarious relationship we have with control, right? Even in the example of like, if I told you like, Shane, don't worry, I got it under control. You'd think that's a good thing. Oh, like Kati's, she's got it, no stress. But if I said, oh, I have a really controlling friend or my boyfriend's kind of controlling, that takes a whole, we have a whole different view. All of a sudden control.

 

05:14

sounds different and it feels different. And that those are just two examples of the ways it can show up. But the book  is more about how it shows up internally. So I talk about things like perfectionism, trying to control outcomes, have certainty.  I talk about people pleasing, trying to control other people's emotional experiences.  And even like the  another chapter about like shrinking myself to fit spaces I don't belong.

 

05:40

like controlling the amount of emotional and physical space you take up. And essentially the thing that I've learned the hard way through life is that we don't have anything outside of ourselves that we can actually control 100 % because...

 

05:59

Everybody has free will, right? We like to think, oh, if I act in a certain way, someone will ask me if I'm upset and then I'll get to do this thing. Somehow I'll manipulate them into doing something. Or if I act just perfectly, then they'll be happy, right? I can control how they feel. When in fact, we don't have control over that. And  the thing that I realized in my life is the more I try, it's like  the more exhausted I get and the more frustrated I feel because I don't have that control. The only thing I have control over is over myself. oh

 

06:29

In therapy we call that like the locus of control.  It's just myself. That's all that I can do. And so I think that there are gazillion ways. I'm sure even as I say this people are thinking of other things they do to try to control other people or other circumstances.  But the sooner we can realize that, I don't have control. It doesn't have to be scary. I can just admit it and I can do what I can do on my part. And I'm still in that practice by the way.

 

06:57

Not to not giving anything away, but at the end of the book i'm essentially like i'm still trying to so we're still trying to figure it out But I think a lot of us we feel like  we we want to control other people We want to control outcomes. We want to control everything  when in fact, we really can't and it's kind of a wasted effort Yeah, I mean, I think all of us have these beliefs underneath the surface and sometimes we don't even realize we have them, you know, like the example that you gave it's sort of like

 

07:26

If I'm feeling hurt, like I have a belief that my partner should ask me how I'm doing  or try to take care of me.  And if they really love me, then I won't have to say anything to actually ask for what I need or something like that. And it  conveniently avoids any vulnerability on my part or the ability to make sense of things on my part to have a voice about what I need. I mean, is that part of how you look at it? Like we're making up this meaning inside of ourselves, but

 

07:56

We're living out themes that may or may not even be true. 100%. The first chapter is all about the blueprint is what I call it. And it's essentially kind of those old beliefs you have from either childhood, which I talk about primarily, but I also talk about how different experiences can shape that blueprint. And what I mean by blueprint is that when we're born into our family, a lot of the dynamics between our parents and our siblings and our grandparents

 

08:24

are things that we utilize to try to draw what does a healthy relationship look like? What does love look like? How do people get attention, right? We're trying to figure this all out because we don't know.  And so we're putting together this blueprint for better for worse, which means that then we can take that out into the world  acting in certain ways. To your point, Shane, that like, I can think that it's not appropriate.

 

08:49

to ask for something because that wasn't what we did in my house. Nobody asked for what they wanted. Instead, what they did is they,  oh, they played the martyr, oh, it's so hard, until someone offered. That's what we do.  So we do that behavior in our life moving forward unless, and that's what I talk about in the book, is unless we realize that that's what we're doing and then we choose to act differently. And  I want everybody to know that change is good and change is healthy, but...

 

09:17

Oh my God, it's so hard and it's so uncomfortable.  It's almost like when you pet a cat the wrong way, their hair, like,  feels like that. You're like, oh, I don't like it. It's not what I'm used to doing.  I  remember the first time I tried to, and this sounds so silly, but it's just hard for me. I'm a retreater. So if I get my feelers hurt, if somebody's hurt my feelings in some way, I retreat. And then  I, because nobody in my house growing up  like,

 

09:45

dealt with conflict at all. Like nobody like directly addressed it. It was more like we pretended it didn't happen. And so  I  would  run away and hope that they would come ask me and then I could tell them I was hurt. Okay, so that's like my pattern. And of course it's not healthy. sometimes they don't come and then I'm mad. And that's not good either.  And so my therapist was like,  next time you want to pull away, want you instead, I want you opposite action. I want you to lean in. I want you to  go to them and I want you to say,

 

10:14

This hurt my feelings. And then just stop and see what happens. And I remember the first time I did that with my husband. It was like I was so nervous. I mean I've been with him forever too at this point. This is years ago but still we've been together for a long time. And I was so nervous. And I was so stressed about it. And it took me a while to like okay just go. Just go tell him. And then when I did he was like oh I'm so sorry. I didn't know that that hurt your feelings. Oh he's like let me give you a hug.

 

10:45

It was over in like 30 seconds  where I would have drawn that out for days, you know? And so we all have these patterns of behavior that we think that's the way we get attention. We think that's the way we get love. We think that's the way conflict is dealt with when in fact it may not be the healthiest. It's just what's comfortable. Yeah. And that's such a good example. I mean, your husband could have been making up entirely different meaning about what was happening  or just been unaware.

 

11:13

you know, based on whatever his history is and what his upbringing was. And I think that's where I'm always thinking about couples and couples therapy about,  think that's one of the biggest challenges is that each person is sort of making a lot of assumptions about what a good relationship looks like.  And unless they bring it to the level of communication and talking about each of their truths, which, which might be different.

 

11:40

It's going to be really sometimes it's really hard and you feel really stuck Yes 100 % and I love that you brought up like that we both come with our own  like set of ideas right those beliefs or that blueprint It can be similar in some ways. That's probably what attracted us in the first place But they're also different and that can lead to arguments that maybe didn't need to happen or misunderstandings and just a lot of different things can happen out of that and it luckily in that example that I gave

 

12:09

My husband was just like  unaware. He's like, I did not know that that would hurt you. Yeah, that was not my intention. I'm so sorry, you know, and it was a quick resolution,  which is almost funny to think it stressed me out so much because it really wasn't a big deal. But, you know, things can feel I always  tell people in my audience, like if we think like we have an overreaction or we think something's always a big deal, everything's a big deal. That's not a bad thing. That's I think that's an indicator that there's more to it, meaning that like

 

12:38

The thing itself is actually  not the big deal. It's like the deeper issue. It's almost like the iceberg. You only see the tip. So you feel this little, you're like, ooh, that feels scary and way intense for me. I don't know if I can talk to them. And you're like, but this is something simple. You just don't want to go to that restaurant. How come you can't speak up? Because it's a bigger,  there's more underneath. It's like it wasn't okay to speak up or my opinions have never been valued or I'm not important or there's a bigger thing to it.

 

13:08

Yeah.  Are you saying like, like, let's say that I come home from work at the end of the day and I'm really hoping my wife will give me a hug when I come, come in  and she doesn't and she's busy with something else that like that, that's just like one little, you know, day to day example, but it's really touching. could be really touching on some deeper stuff for me. Like, am I lovable? Am I deserving of love? Am I worthy?

 

13:36

Is there something wrong in our relationship? Why doesn't she want to do this? Like, I mean, is that part of what you're talking about when you're saying that it, you know, it feels like much deeper stuff? Yes, because it could all come out of that blueprint or those D these deeply held beliefs we have,  right? You could think like,  Oh,  they're going to abandon me. Maybe they don't love me anymore. Right? We can make these jump to these huge conclusions because them not hugging you when you get home is just that little

 

14:05

Tip of the iceberg where the whole thing is actually rooted in a deeper more long-term belief about self It's like it's touching on something that's  it's sensitive because it's not just that Yeah And how would you how would you describe?  What do I do with that? I mean, I love the way you're sort of Hinting at so far. I mean I might be making some assumptions about you about the way you look at things so you can correct me if i'm wrong

 

14:36

but that a big part of it is like owning my own reality. A big part of it is doing my own individual work,  right? Like if I'm feeling that stress because my wife didn't hug me, I mean, I can work toward relational change. can have a voice about what I want. can say, Hey, this is something that would feel really good for me. Does that work for you? But at the same time, so much of it is about me exploring.

 

15:01

Why am I feeling these things that are coming up or how do I change the meaning of what's happening in this situation? Yes. I mean, a hundred percent. feel like I wouldn't be a therapist if I didn't say you have to own your own, right? You have to, it's your own work. And I think yes, to your point, I could communicate and we should, I always say when in doubt, over communicate. Like I could say to my husband, when I come home, I really do love a hug. You know, I could say something like that, like for whatever reason.

 

15:31

That's really important to me. And just ask for it direct. You can always do those things. And you can always communicate those wants and needs. However, because kind of going back to our control conversation, because I can't control someone else and also life doesn't  run perfectly,  he may get busy maybe doing something else. He may not be able to meet me at the door. Maybe he's tending to our children or our dog or  he's in the backyard or who knows, insert thing.  I need to be able to regulate anyways.

 

16:00

because it can't always be dependent upon someone else. That's a scary thing to do to put all your power into someone else that takes it from you. So we have to own up to like,  where is this coming from for me?  Why is this such a big deal for me? I feel like as therapists, we're trained to never ask why. Why do you do that? Because it can feel too pointed, but we can ask ourselves as people, and I think we should a lot, is like figure out the why, what's the root of this? Why is that so hurtful or painful or whatever?

 

16:30

and then we have to untangle it and people are going to hate this like answer or conversation. But a lot of times the real way  to deal with this is to do it for ourselves. How do I hug myself? When I come home, what is it that I need? Are there certain things I need to tell myself so that I don't feel so dysregulated, right? We have to own our own emotional response to life. And I think for a lot of us, it's much more, it's like easier.

 

17:00

I wouldn't say it's healthier, but it's easier to point the finger and be like, I need this from you.  This is what you have to do versus being like, what am I not giving myself? What am I not setting myself up to get?  know? And  that's the healing is like, it's on me.  Like even with my husband and that example of me, like I want to retreat. And so was like, I'm going to lean in. I'm like, ooh, where is this coming from? Why does this feel so scary?

 

17:26

That's such a silly thing to feel scared about, but I'm scared about it. It's authentic. And then I have to own up to that and I have to change. He actually didn't do anything wrong. And he apologized when I brought it to his attention. So you have to own up to your side of the street. You know, I have to clean my side of the street. can't expect him to come over and fix it because he can't. It's, it's my belief or my blueprint that I'm working out of. like that visual that you gave of petting the cat backwards.

 

17:54

because it is like that. It's like, it's much easier  to go through the world and sort of point at everybody else who's doing things wrong rather than taking a look in the mirror. And  that can be a very uncomfortable process  and really taking a look at myself and it's vulnerable.  And it's a realization that I'm truly alone in the world in some ways.  And that's really hard to face, right? Obviously,

 

18:22

There are people I have relationships with and that's great, like  it comes back to  our own experience and our own meaning that we're making up about things.  Yes, 100 % and it is hard. Like that vulnerability piece can feel scary, right? Nobody wants to feel like they could be wounded. But if you do the work with yourself, like with a therapist on your own, like that's a safe space to be honest about like, man, I'm, I'm doing that again. Like, why do I keep doing this?

 

18:52

Because I hear a lot from my audience, I'm sure you do too, that like people keep dating, they're like, I don't know why I keep dating the same type of person. I picked somebody who felt very different. And I'm like, the reason that we end up dating the same type of person is because we haven't changed. You can't look, again, you can't look outward for that change. Oh, I picked a different person, therefore we won't have the same issues. You're still in this relationship. You're the common denominator. I even write about this in the book that like for a long time I would,

 

19:22

because I always wanted people to like me. Like I know that that could be obvious, but I don't think a lot of people admit that they're doing that. I like to be liked. And what that would mean is when I was younger, I would like chameleon into a person that I wasn't in order to keep a connection, to have a relationship. But then, like as I started working in therapy, like at a deeper level, probably in like my early 20s, thank God for free therapy in college, when...

 

19:48

into therapy like once a week, twice a week for a while. My dad was getting really sick. And I realized like, I don't, who am I? Like what the hell is going on? And so I shifted who I was. And then of course the person I was dating was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what? And I was like, well, we have to break up. My therapist told me not to, but I did anyway. Because she's like, you should try to work this out. But you know, it's because I wasn't being myself. And I had to be honest with why.

 

20:17

I had to be honest about  what I was doing. And then the work after the fact was like, it actually wasn't his fault at all. It that was on me. I set up this scenario and then ended up in this unhealthy relationship.  And I had done that like repeatedly, which is why my therapist was like, let's hang this, let's hang on to this one and see if we can  work it out. And I was like,  no, pattern is too strong. So I did the exact same thing I always did.  But um it is hard to acknowledge in the moment, but I can tell you it's like,

 

20:46

acknowledging the things that we do that we hate and the things that we do, maybe embarrassed of is the first step to like a lighter life. I don't want to say freedom, it's like, whoo, you don't have to carry that anymore. You don't have to be embarrassed of it anymore. You don't have to pretend that you're perfect. Nobody's perfect. Nobody expects that. Building a private practice can be challenging.

 

21:10

Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment.

 

21:39

Plus when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. Yeah, it's funny  or interesting because I think that's another form of control, right? Where  if um

 

22:09

If I start dating somebody and I just try to be the perfect partner for them and I try to do everything they like to do and I try to make them happy and I'm not really expressing my own voice and my own boundaries and my own things that are important to me. Like I'm trying to control their perspective. I'm trying to control how they see me in order. You know, if I, if I truly had a voice about  what I wanted or what my boundaries were, maybe they'll leave me.

 

22:38

maybe they won't like that. Right. Is it another form of control? No, you're 100 % correct. Yes, it is another form of control and it just comes in the shape of self abandonment. Right. It's kind of part of the people pleasing piece where it's like, I don't feel okay until you are okay. And I know that our connection is stable. Yeah. But the funny thing about that actually just recorded a bunch of videos about self abandonment as a whole. I find it fascinating. We all do it.

 

23:08

However, I think that inevitably when we do that, we end up creating the very thing we don't want, right? Because if we just chameleon to pretend that we like the same things as them, we do everything exactly quote unquote perfectly to try to keep them,  we almost cease to exist. And if you think of what attracts you to a person or what keeps a relationship going, it's all the eccentricities, it's all the  differences.  I think healthy relationships have a little bit of friction, right? There's a little bit of like,

 

23:38

Oh, you like to do, okay, okay, well, you do it this way, we'll do it that way. You disagree with me on this, we need a little bit of healthy difference. I think that's what really sustains long-term attraction and interest. If someone, I don't want to date myself, I don't want to get married to myself, like that's boring, right? And so I think inevitably when we do that, we end up pushing people away. We end up ruining the relationship. And we might even be resentful too, because we're like,

 

24:07

Why do I keep doing the same, trying to pretend I'm somebody else? Nobody forced me. We'll still do the thing. They'll ask us, we'll say yes, but we might be mad about it. I can't believe that after all I do all the time. You know, we can be really frustrated. And so it is interesting that how we try to control, again, we can't control other people, so we control ourselves. We chameleon into whatever we think we're supposed to look like. And then inevitably end up not connected. They don't know who we are. We don't know who we are.

 

24:37

Yeah, yeah, there's a lack of authenticity and we're, we're not giving the other person a chance to truly know who,  who we are, what our truth is. Exactly. So then they, how can they  love us or want to be with us? They don't know who we are, you know, right. Allowing for them to. Exactly. And I think it makes sense. Like that's why it's so important to  fortify your self because there should be the mindset  of

 

25:06

I'm starting a relationship with this person and it's okay whether it works out or not, right? I'm still worthy. I'm still deserving of love. I'm going to speak my truth in a respectful way. And if that doesn't work for the other person, that's okay, right? It's a discovery period of finding out if that can be a good connection. Yes, 100%. I think a lot of times we get too scared to be alone without realizing

 

25:33

that if we're not in an authentic relationship where they know us, that can be the loneliest of all. And we have to feel okay with or without other people. Like that's actually how healthy relationships can grow. Is if I know that I'm okay regardless, then I'm not  twisting myself into a pretzel to try to make you happy. It's coming out of authenticity. When I do things for you, I do it out of joy and love, not out of like, I don't know whether it's

 

26:02

expectations or assumptions or what I think you're going to want from I'm not trying to do put on a show or be anything else. It just comes from a more  healthier and more authentic place in general.  there was a specific question I had from looking at your stuff, which I feel like is kind of part of what we're talking about, or I'm interested to see what you say. But why do people fall for narcissists? Ooh, that's a good question. A couple of reasons.

 

26:30

First of all, they're extremely charismatic. We just have to admit it.  It sounds really silly, but people who are confident are charismatic.  They're attractive. You don't need anybody else. You think you're so great. Maybe I think you're great. And I know it sounds silly. People are like, that can't be it. That's part of it. And there is something, especially for those of us, and this is like another piece, for those of us who grew up in homes where we...

 

26:56

had a lot of responsibility. Maybe we were a parentified child. Maybe we're the oldest child, oldest daughter, oldest son, where people depended on us to do a lot of things. Finding someone who doesn't need us or acts like they don't need us.  They're very confident. They do all these things. They can be maybe even like the bad boy or the bad girl. That's attractive because they don't need us.  I get to just be. They just pull me along on these things that they want. Amazing. It just feels so much  less

 

27:26

There's this effort involved and it feels so nice. So they can, that's one of the reasons  the other.  Would you say there's like a beginning phase and then maybe a secondary phase that comes in? Cause that feels every, could feel really good at the beginning. They're very charming  and you're just going along with what, with what's going on in their world. But then as you get further and further into it, there are maybe some negative things about that.

 

27:56

100 % a lot of negative things. It's always early on that you get like kind of hooked in especially if they engage in what's called love bombing which is like the in the early stages of relationships narcissists will  shower you with affection and attention tell you how amazing you are.  Of course you like that who doesn't like to be told nice things about themselves that doesn't make you egotistical that's there's nothing wrong with you that's a normal human thing. So they shower us with so much of that.

 

28:24

The future fake is another thing where they'll be like, oh next year we're going to go to Spain. I'm going to take you on this amazing vacation and they promise you  all this stuff. This is all really quick by the way too. It's like in the first couple of months of a relationship they probably already told you that they love you. They may want you to move in or they want to move in with you. Things are just moving at a crazy  pace and people in your life who love you are probably like, wow that's fast. They're trying to  tell you that like, hey that seems a little quick.

 

28:52

But you're like, was love at first sight. It's so amazing. I'm so excited.  You know, he or she, telling me so, they're just so lovely and they're so nice. And  we just get sucked in. And I love the term love bombing because it  is like that. It's like a fog. It's almost like a bomb has been dropped and we can't see clearly. We can't really think clearly. And they do that so that we are more easy to manipulate. And so quickly into that, moving into what you said, like the kind of negative impacts.

 

29:19

is then they'll start to take advantage of us. So maybe they'll ask us, could you loan me like 200 bucks? I have this thing that's happening and we're like, oh, of course, you're so, you're going to take me on that trip and this is going to happen, that's fine. It'll all come out in the wash.  Or hey, could you put in a good word with your boss and help me get this job? And we'll just do all sorts of stuff for them. Whereas normally, if it was an early on relationship, we were just getting to know each other slowly, we might take a beat and be like, do I want to loan them money? I don't know if I really should do that.

 

29:46

But in this case, we're so spun up into this frenzy, essentially a dopamine serotonin dump of like, oh my God, they think  I'm so good and we're gonna do all this stuff together. You get so excited and amped up that you don't think clearly. You're not  able to make good decisions. So there are definite negative consequences, not to mention  the abuse that you can sustain in the discard phase where they decide they don't want you, but then they still want your attention. So they kind of do this.

 

30:14

get rid of you, pull you back in, get rid of you, pull you back in. Yes, that can be  very toxic and very terrible. But I do want to mention that another reason we can be attracted to narcissists and find ourselves dating them a lot is if we have a lot of empathy. Because narcissists, it's almost like they're bloodhounds for it. They can sniff out someone who feels a lot. And you've got to give them credit. They're being resourceful because they don't feel for other people. So they don't know what that's like. So it's like they're looking for someone who can do that. They'll...

 

30:44

there was this interview, God, I'm forgetting who it was, but it was with someone who'd been diagnosed, which is very hard to get them to even come into therapy and get diagnosed, because nothing's wrong with them, right? They're so great. um But somebody was interviewed and  he said that he would pick out who to date by just sitting and people watching. And if somebody like tripped and a woman like, oh, went to help and was super like, oh, are you okay? Are you okay? They'd be like, that's my person.  If somebody just walked by like,

 

31:12

Quick check briefly like you okay, okay, and this kept going that's not the person it's the person who really feels and it's because I Think deep down they know they can't and also  they know that those people are easier to manipulate because they feel for others they always assume the best for people and they want the best for people  and  Unfortunately, we can get sucked into that So interesting. I feel like there are different

 

31:40

you know, psychological dynamics where we don't even think it fully through, but we just notice little things like that. And we know like, that person probably wouldn't be a good fit. And with someone who's, who's a narcissist, it's like for the other person who's deciding to be in a relationship with that person, there's probably a certain psychology that's like on the one hand, they might see like the, the hurt little boy inside of that.

 

32:08

person that they want to love and take care of. and, and on the other hand, they could be experiencing their own sort of like unworthiness and feeling like if I can get this person to love me, then that would really prove that I'm enough or something like that.  Totally. There can be a lot of our own,  our own beliefs or blueprint, right? That are affecting it.  We can also  be a person who loves a project because we've always had projects in our life.

 

32:37

And we always maybe felt like we had to earn love or earn our worth. And so we can feel like I have to really work for this relationship. That's what relationships are about. You'll hear people say that a lot. Like, good relationships take a lot of work. And I'm like, as a therapist, could agree. I could easily be like, okay, yeah, they do take work. But I don't believe it's work in the way that we think of work. I think it's a uh labor of love for yourself.

 

33:08

and for someone else, right? It's like I'm  wanting to become a better person for myself and that will inevitably improve my relationships. I don't have to fight to keep this together.  I think that creates the dynamic where we hold on to relationships we should never have been in in the first place or we outgrow them and we think, this is just what, this is what marriage is. I just have to fight for it. I'm like,  yes and no.  I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, but I believe that

 

33:37

In general, first of all, relationships take two people. And for you to think that you're the only one that has to do the fighting is very unhealthy and  is never going to give you the outcome that you're wanting because you can't, uh we can't control other people.  And I think that real relationships take, it's not  work, it's mutual respect and a shared goal of wanting to come together and to make it work. It's not, I don't know, I just don't see it.

 

34:04

Work feels like a bad. It's like leaves a bad taste in my mouth It's like the wrong word to put to what uh a healthy relationship takes Yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying and I think a lot of what is portrayed in movies and things like that is Not really love. It's more like codependence  and  Even some relationship books that I think are popular out there. I think I'm like

 

34:30

This does not feel like the foundation of a healthy relationship. And I often tell people when I'm working with them in couples therapy,  even if they've, let's say they've been together for 20 years and they have a lot of history and everything. like, look, neither one of you would be a bad person for deciding to leave this relationship.  It's sort of like each of you has to make an empowered choice for yourself and have a voice about what your boundaries are and what's okay for you and learn how to.

 

34:58

communicate in a respectful way and be considerate of the other person's reality.  And at the end of the day, if you're not going to be together, if you decide not to be together, there's no bad guys here. There's no one doing anything wrong. But if you're continued to sort of like, like that codependent feeling where you're expecting your partner to solve your problems, it's going to feel like,  uh, not healthy. Yeah. And it will never improve. Right? Like we can't give all our power away to our partners.

 

35:26

And that doesn't mean that we don't trust in them, that we don't believe in the relationship. think people, again,  I love that you mentioned that because I think, unfortunately, in our media, what people portray as healthy is codependence.  And the amount of times I'll put out content about healthy boundaries around like, what's your responsibility, what's not? Like, I don't have to take on your emotional experience. It's not my responsibility to make that better for you.

 

35:53

I'm not responsible, unless I caused it, can apologize, I can communicate. But  the difficulty that people have in that, like having a healthy boundary around being like, you know, that's your experience in your life and I can support you, but you have to get better for you.  And I'm not responsible for the fact that you had a bad day. It's not up to me to like improve that for you. Also, I can't, but I can feel like I should. I get so much pushback when I say like,

 

36:22

you have to put yourself first because that's how you then  give to others from a place of love and joy. And people think that is so selfish that that is just the worst thing I could possibly say that I don't really know what family means. And I'm like, Ooh, that's an interesting belief system you have, know, obviously I don't want to fight with everybody on the internet. So I don't comment back,  but I always think, Ooh, that must have been tough growing up. And that must be a tough spot to be in to still think that that's the truth, know?

 

36:51

Yeah, absolutely. And it's so hard because these are beliefs that are formed over the course of decades, that people come into a new relationship and they don't even realize that these things are going on. And I think that's one of the challenges. And one of the reasons I appreciate you so much, you know, that you are willing to get on YouTube and wherever else and speak the truth.

 

37:19

and hopefully help a lot of people because I just don't think people have an understanding  of these things that we're talking about. agree. mean, and I think  it's  not anyone, no one did it maliciously. There's no reason we don't have this knowledge, right? It's like, it hasn't been readily available until recently. And even now, think sometimes, you know, because social media is social media, things can get shared without full context. People take like half an idea and run with it. And so it can get misconstrued.

 

37:48

But I  think that, like I hear this a lot from my audience too, like, I love my parents and they did the best they could. A lot of our parents did the best they could, but they didn't have emotional intelligence at the level you do. And they didn't have awareness because nobody talked about this. And  even from my family, uh my  grandparents, like my papa grew up with like a dirt floor and like his main goal in life was like to be able to support his family, to like build a home. And that was like his pride, you know?

 

38:15

He always felt so proud that we could like eat good, you know, like we put food on the table because that was his, he thought that was his role. So when your goals in life are when the things that your family was raised in is just like to supply basic needs, if we think not that Maslow's hierarchy of needs is the end all be all, but if we think of those basic needs, that doesn't leave room for,  am I worried if I'm in a codependent relationship or am I communicating my needs clearly? It's like, no, we need to have a roof over our head. I need to be able to pay bills like.

 

38:44

things that just take precedence. You know, I need to survive. And I think that for a lot of us we came out of those generations and only now are we able to get more to the top of the pyramid where we're like, like I think it's called self-actualization which is such a funny term but I get it. like, am I living to my fullest potential? Am I  in healthy relationships that serve me and serve them? Is this a good dynamic or these things I want to put my energy into? That's when we can get there. And so yes, our parents could have done the best that they

 

39:13

they could with what they had, but we want to do better. And so we're trying to move up in that triangle and we're trying to figure out if our relationships are healthy ones and how, they're not, how can we, again, ourselves, how can we own up to our part in that role? Like, are we  over-functioning to make up for the fact that our partner doesn't? Can we stop doing that? What's that feel like? You know, that's when we make those changes. That's when we get out of those patterns. Yeah.

 

39:42

I'm interested if you would agree with this. mean, sometimes I tell people that, you know, I don't want to talk bad about your parents. I want you to have a good relationship with them if they're still alive in the present. But the reason that we need to  talk about this is like, it's the truth of what happened and it's to help the person move into compassion for themselves. Cause I think they set up a psychological protection of their parents and they're over, have too much empathy for their parents.

 

40:10

that gets in the way of them seeing the truth of their own experience and moving into the self-compassion?  100%, I agree with that. think  it's almost like, I don't even know  where I heard this, but it's something I've always taken with me is the like, I can talk trash on my family, but you can't because that's not okay, right? We protect our family in our head because first of all, there are people...

 

40:35

There can be rules about whether you talk about your family or you're airing dirty laundry. There can be all these beliefs around that as well. And also I think we have a really, really tough time with...  don't know,  it almost feels like it's cognitive dissonance, but it's not. We can hold two  very different beliefs. Meaning I can hold, we just don't always want to. I can hold the belief that like my parents did the best that they can and I love them. And I want to continue my relationship with them. However...

 

41:04

I also acknowledge that their lack of comfort with conflict created a big problem for me and I still have to work through it. And so  both those things can be true. It could even be like, love my parents and wanna have a relationship, but man, they really screwed me up in a lot of ways, right? We can have those two things coexisting, but for whatever reason, we have a really hard time with it. And to your point, that is what holds us back because if we can't first understand it and accept what happened,

 

41:34

It can be really hard for us to heal and change. We'll keep going back to those old patterns because if we refuse to look in that place and acknowledge what it was, how can we say to our younger version of self when we're doing our therapeutic work like, wow, little Kati, that was really tough. And I wouldn't have understood it either at that age.  We have to admit there was a problem. We have to admit that our parents did something that was hurtful. We have to admit that our life wasn't perfect when we were growing up.

 

42:04

can be really hard.  That's a great way to put it.  absolutely. Can you um define the word love bombing again? Because I don't know, maybe it's not always in the context of  a narcissistic relationship, right? Yeah, it doesn't only happen with narcissists. It can. Love bombing is done with the intent of manipulation. I think that's really important to note.  It's something that is done so that you're easier to sway and

 

42:34

whatever way, whether that's, you know, attention, money, influence, whatever. And love bombing can happen in friendships and romantic relationships and this happens to new relationships only. So these are people who are new to your life. They move in really quickly. They shower you with attention, affection, potentially gifts and they promise you the world, we're going to do so many cool things together. This happens in really quick succession and it's not long after that that they start to ask you for things.

 

43:03

And that's where you'll feel the manipulation. Like I said, whether it's influence, money, attention, whatever. Okay. Great. Yeah. And that's where just having consciousness of your own self and your own boundaries is so important. Cause if somebody's really kind and loving  and doing all those things,  once in one scenario could just be a healthy, loving person trying to be kind. And another scenario could be the love bombing  and

 

43:32

You just have to be prepared for whatever's going to happen. You have to be prepared as your individual self and not put too much stock into  the meaning of what's going on too quickly.  Yes. And one of my good friends, Arielle, she always says this. She's like, I don't take uh criticism to heart in the same way I don't take compliments to heart. I love that. And she's like, because I know who I am. And again, it goes back to that  strong sense of self because we

 

44:02

I think in that strong sense of self, then we're able to see more clearly so that if somebody starts showering us with  all this attention and affection, we're like, I know that I'm a good person. I know that I'm good at my job. I don't need you to tell me, but thank you for reminding me. We don't feel so, oh my God, me.  Oh, we're not as  caught into like emotion mind. I'm dialectical behavior therapy, like DBT's my jam. That's my background.  So I always think of like wise mind and emotion mind.

 

44:32

And when someone gives us a lot of compliments and we get spun up in it we get all excited, we're in emotion mind. We're like floating away in that love bombing. Like it's like that early stage of relationship. We're like, everything is perfect and this person is amazing. And it's not reality. Wise mind is a more stable, grounded, thoughtful place. And so if we do feel like we have a true sense of self, we'll be less swayed. It won't matter as much. Yeah. That I've heard someone describe boundaries that way, right? Like.

 

45:01

If you know  what your truth is for yourself, like I'm an amazing, wonderful person, then whether they say nice things to you or whether they say not nice things to you, you're sort of filtering it through your own personal boundaries. Yeah. And of course nobody's perfect. mean, we'll all like wounded things. People can say nasty things. They can hurt us. People can say nice things and it feels good, but we just need to have our like wise mind close by so we can say, yeah, but  I know.

 

45:30

this, you know, we can't get spun up into it. Yeah. And if, if someone gives me feedback that I hurt them,  it's also important to be accountable. And for me to say, Oh my gosh, I'm sorry. And  to, take it in and bring awareness to it.  Um, not to dismiss that. Yeah. So can you, uh, anything else you want to say about the book as we, um, come to the end here? Um, yeah, my, my book, why do I keep doing this unlearn the habits, keeping you stuck and unhappy is available wherever books are sold.

 

45:59

Like I said, it's more of a personal book. Think of me as like your therapeutic sherpa taking you along,  showing you all the things that I do,  things I've learned, and then things I still don't know. Each chapter ends with some questions that helped me and I love to journal. I feel like if you're ever wondering where to start, just start journaling, jotting some things down. uh Each chapter ends with some questions that were really helpful for me along my journey.  And then there's a control challenge where it's like, how could you kind of maybe let go of a little bit of it here?

 

46:28

How would that feel? And I just hope that it reaches the people that it's supposed to anybody out there who's felt like they have to hold it all together, do everything perfectly, be everything for everybody. You know, I see you, I am you.  I'm trying to deprogram that myself.  Yeah, that's great. That's great. And where can people this is Kati Morton, everyone. Where can people find you  on  YouTube?

 

46:51

Yeah, all of my social media is just Kati Morton, K A T I M O R T O N on Tik Tok, Instagram, YouTube. Those are all my channels. I also have a podcast, Ask Kati Anything that comes out every Thursday and that I answer  my audience's questions and I also interview people. Yeah, I think those are all. I also have two other books. Are you okay? And traumatized. Are you okay? It's kind of like a mental health one on one. So if you're just new to therapy and thinking about it, that's a great place to start. Oh, great. Nice.

 

47:20

Great. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on. definitely learned a lot and hopefully we can catch up again at some point. I'd love that. Thanks for having me. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks.  Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more.  And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch.

 

47:49

podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody!



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