275: Internal Family Systems (IFS) & Couples with Liz Phillips

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Liz Phillips about Internal Family Systems (IFS) & Couples. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 275: Internal Family Systems (IFS) & Couples with Liz Phillips

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Join the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new 

In this episode, Shane talks with Liz Phillips about Internal Family Systems (IFS) & Couples. Liz is a therapist trained in Sensorimotor Psychotherapy (SP), Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), and IFS. Hear what’s so unique about IFS, how it avoids common vicious cycles, how to move your clients to focus on themselves first, how to create clarity for your clients, and why every therapist should do their own therapy. Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• Understanding IFIO: Intimacy From the Inside Out
• The U-turn: turning inward instead of blaming your partner
• The landmine metaphor: why partners trigger us
• The internal civil war: when protectors fight each other
• The three categories of parts: managers, firefighters, and exiles

To learn more about Liz Phillips & IFS, visit:

LizPhillipsTherapy.Ca

IFS-Institute.com

 

Show Notes

• 275: Internal Family Systems (IFS) & Couples with Liz Phillips
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [0:10] Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch 
• [1:08] Introduction to Liz Phillips and her therapy background
• [2:04] Liz's journey from sensorimotor and EFT to IFS
• [4:20] What was missing before discovering IFS
• [5:16] Understanding the IFS model: we are born multiple
• [6:38] Example: anger exile and protective parts (managers)
• [8:01] The three categories of parts: managers, firefighters, and exiles
• [9:19] IFS as a non-pathologizing approach to therapy
• [10:38] Befriending the drinking part: working with firefighters
• [12:04] The internal civil war: when protectors fight each other
• [13:28] Gaining the trust of protective parts
• [14:52] The Self: accessing innate wisdom and the 8 C qualities
• [17:32] The goal of unblending parts in couples therapy
• [18:32] The U-turn: turning inward instead of blaming your partner
• [20:25] Understanding IFIO: Intimacy From the Inside Out
• [21:23] The landmine metaphor: why partners trigger us
• [22:15] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [24:01] The "90% is your stuff" principle in couples therapy
• [25:26] When reassurance doesn't work: the compartmentalized exile
• [27:19] The child part that didn't know about the loving partner
• [28:17] Unblending explained: "I have an angry part" vs "I am angry"
• [29:42] Why IFS doesn't create ground rules or exclude angry clients
• [31:36] Working with therapist parts and counter-transference
• [34:20] The importance of doing your own IFS therapy
• [36:17] The IFIO framework: a structure for curiosity
• [38:06] Tracking the cycle: what activated you and what story did you tell yourself?
• [40:30] How protective behaviors try to help and what they're afraid of
• [41:53] Putting it all together: making sense of the pattern
• [43:42] Using clinical judgment: when to do deeper individual work
• [45:07] Resources and training pathways for learning IFS and IFIO
• [47:30] Finding the model that works for you
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00

Let's hear what goes on in your mind  when you're reacting. And that's when you get to things like, I've been disrespected, ah I'm not cared for, I'm not the priority,  they don't see me, they don't hear me.  It boils down to those kinds of things.

 

00:22

Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now,  your host,  Shane Birkel.

 

00:38

Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy.  Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

01:08

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and today I'm speaking with Liz Phillips, a therapist trained in sensory motor therapy, emotionally focused therapy and internal family systems. Hey Liz, welcome to the show. Hey Shane. Thanks so much for having me.

 

01:35

Thank you so much for coming on. I'm really excited to talk about internal family systems. It's one of the models that I have a great amount of respect for. And I feel like we, haven't had enough episodes on the podcast to talk about it. So I'm really excited you're here, but before we get into all that, why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about yourself? Yeah. So  thank you for your lovely introduction. You know, this, becoming a therapist was a midlife career change for me. So,

 

02:04

You know, I haven't been at it for as long as a lot of people who are, you know, 25 years in, but I compressed my learning  into a very short period of time. And so it was doing my training in therapy school while I was training in sensory motor and EFT, and then  did IFS pretty soon,  you know, a couple of years after. So I...

 

02:29

I and IFS is really the home, you know, it  landed for me. So I feel like I'm an IFS therapist now. That's how I think of myself. That's great. And how did you arrive  at  IFS as far as,  you know, the other trainings that you've taken and how did, how did you make your way there? You know, I did the sensory motor cycle therapy training because I had a lot of therapist friends in field and

 

02:55

they were actually working in agencies doing trauma work. And I just thought that's what therapists do. And so I went and did the training and, but I knew that I wanted to work with couples. And so I also did the EFT because that was the modality that was sort of the gold standard, at least here in Canada. And, and when I did the externship, which is a four day introduction to emotionally focused  therapy, I loved it. It really spoke to me.

 

03:24

And so, but, but in both sensory motor and EFT, kept sort of getting stuck. kind of felt like a deer in the headlights in my office with my clients because there was something unknown about both of them and I couldn't quite put my finger on it. And I just kept thinking, I'm just not a good therapist. And then I had a very close friend who had introduced me to sensory motor who'd gone on to do IFS.

 

03:52

And she is a seasoned therapist.  She works with trauma. She doesn't work with couples, but she came back from her level one IFS training and said, Liz, this is the bomb. need to  And I was pretty burnt out at that point. So I said, yeah, maybe down the road. And then I burnt myself out more, not knowing what I was doing and was ready to actually leave therapy. And another friend of mine said, you cannot leave until you try IFS. Just try it.

 

04:20

So I did go to a training in Canada  run by Derek Scott.  within the first day, I realized what was missing. There was something about that IFS, the way the model is set out, the framework is so clear and makes so much sense  of made sense anyway, my emotional world that I could then understand what was going on with my clients with that framework.

 

04:46

That's amazing. And I think a lot of us as therapists have gotten to that point where we just feel so burnt out. And it's like, I think it makes a huge amount of difference when you find a model that resonates for you  and you have uh a, of a sudden this huge amount of clarity about what you're doing, how you're working with people. And I wonder, it might be difficult to describe, I don't want to put you on the spot, but how difficult is it to explain what that,  the missing pieces that you found in IFS?

 

05:16

Yeah, so the way I think of it is,  know, IFS is explicit about  what is happening for people. And what I mean by that is, you know,  IFS has set out this model  of  our nature is to be multiple. So you know how you might say, yeah, some part of me wanted to go to this party and some part of me really wanted to stay home and do something else.

 

05:41

You know, we are not these monolithic, unified personalities. We have many aspects of us. And so, you know,  you may have a  rageful reaction at something, but that's not you. That's a reaction. But it's it's part of you. And you may have a different reaction at a different time, depending on the context. And so IFS says we are not just one thing. We have different parts of us. We're born multiple. And those parts  all do different jobs and we need them all.

 

06:11

But when we have certain life circumstances happen to us, some of those parts of us might be forced into extreme roles.  And the way we manage,  know, those roles are how we manage uh difficult circumstances or painful experiences. So just to make it really concrete for you,  let's just say I had come from a family where uh you weren't allowed to show that you were.

 

06:38

angry. There was something about the family culture that wasn't  willing to tolerate that. So I would get sent to my room until I was sort of socially acceptable.  But no one was saying, Hey, Liz, why are you upset? So as a small child, you know, if that were my family, what I would probably learn is anger is not acceptable here. And therefore, I better do some things to avoid situations where I might get angry. So that might turn me into a people pleaser or an A plus student or

 

07:07

might make me conflict avoidant. And those parts of my personality, IFS would call managers because what they are doing is managing my social acceptability and managing situations to make sure nothing touches on my anger and makes it come through because I am so afraid that if I show my anger, I won't be acceptable because that's what happened in my family. I was sent to my room.

 

07:34

However, life happens and people are gonna step on my toes and at some point something's gonna happen where my anger erupts. But because I've spent so much time trying to exile it, so this is what IFS would call the exiles is the parts of us that  other people in our life have told us are unacceptable. We then internalize that and tell ourselves that's unacceptable. When those exiles get stepped on and the feelings surface,

 

08:01

Then you have a different set of these sub-personalities called firefighters. And their job is just like any firefighter out there, douse the fire, do  anything to get rid of that pain, the shame that erupts, the bad feelings. And so that's where you have things like cutting or drinking or binging and purging  or uh rage that is out of control. Dissociation can be a firefighter if it's happening in the moment where

 

08:31

a feeling has burst through  or a dissociation can sometimes be a manager if you dissociate proactively. So there are three, there are two categories of protectors, managers and firefighters. Managers proactively make sure you don't feel things you don't think you're supposed to feel and firefighters reactively make sure that you're not feeling them in the moment they erupt.

 

08:55

And both of them are set up to protect these exiles, which is just another way of describing a vulnerability that didn't have anyone to help process that through. You if I'd been angry as a child and someone said, of course you're angry. You know, I can really see that this thing that happened upset you and I'm so sorry and let's talk about it and tell me all about it. I could have processed it.

 

09:19

Does that make sense? Yeah, it's  such a compassionate way of viewing the human being because I think when we don't have ways to describe these parts of ourselves as you're describing them, the person goes to this place of,  know, I'm a bad person for feeling this anger or I'm a bad person because I rage and it goes into the shame of that. What you're saying is that

 

09:46

you're coming from a very understanding perspective of this human being saying, of course you get angry. You never had that validation as a child. And of course these other parts had to develop in order to protect you in the situation. And so you have this ability to shift them from shaming themselves about it to having compassion and understanding for themselves about it. That's right. And I think, you know, what you're saying is bang on around.

 

10:14

IFS, it's non pathologizing.  So especially around the parts of us that take on these firefighter roles, you know, where you might have someone, let's say has a drinking part to manage  the feelings flashbacks from trauma, let's say.  And you know, I've had clients, many clients like this, where they're in outpatient programs. And those programs are actually

 

10:38

trying to help them get rid of these drinking parts because the drinking parts, as you can imagine, are wreaking havoc on their lives. And so the thinking sort of has  logic behind it. If we can help this person stop drinking, then they're going to have more loving relationships and more support, and it's not helping them. But the problem is with a lot of these programs around abstinence or harm reduction is that no one's really seeing the firefighter as a resource. It's been a resource for this client.

 

11:07

And firefighter meaning the part of them that's drinking. That's right. Uh huh. And so if we can actually befriend that drinking part and say, you actually are welcome here, we'd actually like to get to know you because in fact you've,  you have a good reason to be drinking. It may not be helping you, but there's a very good reason behind it. So let's get to know that. And then what you're really inviting in is that person's

 

11:35

flashback experiences, the terror they're trying to manage,  the old emotional pains and wounds that for them feel real and present, even though they might've already happened. And when they don't have to feel like there's a part of them that is distasteful or socially unacceptable, that someone's actually curious about it, that helps them  calm that part of themselves down. Otherwise you get into this, and this is the part that's the internal family system is,

 

12:04

They don't even need an external shamor. You know,  if someone has  a fierce drinking part, they are also going to have a critical manager who's going to get down on their drinker internally within their own internal system.  And so they have a civil war going on inside them inside themselves.  Yeah, and it's almost like they're building up that opposition within themselves. It's a uh vicious, it's a vicious cycle, right?

 

12:33

because the more they put pressure on themselves to stop drinking, the more their drinking part feels shame and probably does it more to numb the pain. And uh what you're doing is completely shifting the whole perspective to that compassion for each of these parts and being curious about them. That's right. So ideally in IFS,

 

13:00

you know, we befriend the protector parts, so the manager parts and the firefighter parts, because they end up being the gatekeepers for the parts that got exiled. And this is what I mean by they get forced into these extreme roles. If there was no one there to help a child with whatever was vulnerable, whatever didn't get processed through, you know, a sense of danger, then that  usually a child,  they have to develop these parts and those parts become their

 

13:28

protectors for their vulnerabilities. And, you know, by the time they're adults, they've been working for decades in protecting the client, the client's vulnerability. And so a therapist is not going to be able to get straight to the exiles and start working on healing that without the permission of these protective parts, the managers and the firefighters.  How we befriend them is to really validate what they've been doing, to really help them understand their jobs and to let them know that makes sense.

 

13:58

And then to  offer the possibility that if we could help heal  what they are protecting, they might not actually have to work so hard. They might be able to lay down those jobs and go do something else. And protectors love that idea, but they don't often trust right away that that's even possible because they've in this role for so long.  And so it's a process of really gaining the trust of the protectors.

 

14:26

And who is gaining the trust in this system, which hasn't been named yet, is the self of the client. So what makes this internal family systems different from a lot of uh psychodynamic therapies is it's actually,  what we are trying to do is help get the client's sense of their self in touch with their parts.

 

14:52

What we normally do in in psychodynamic therapy is we are the compassionate listener, witness or listener, validator as the therapist.  But then when the client leaves the office and I know as a client myself, I had these feelings. I don't know how to manage without my therapist. know, my therapist is the one I talk to in IFS as we kind of help these protectors know they don't really have to work this hard because there's actually someone else here who gets it.

 

15:19

And that someone else is the client themselves. And the protector sort of softened back a little bit. What comes through is every person's innate capacity for their own wisdom.  Dick Schwartz says this, and I'm seeing it  in my client sessions too, but I don't have his history. He's got 30 some odd years.  He has said he's never met a client who didn't have this wisdom.

 

15:46

Even when you would think if you've been  severely abused and have, you know, extreme trauma and you visit in on someone else, because that's what one of your extreme protectors does.  As you get to know these protectors, that person still knows somewhere inside something was not right here. That should not have happened to me. It's wrong.

 

16:08

So we are born with that knowledge. We are born with what's okay or not okay for us. And we just have to help these protectors give enough space so that self can kind of come through and be the one who's validating and understanding. Is that like the ideal self, the mature self, the functional adult part of this person? Yeah, I think that's some of the ways that it's been seen. You know, in IFS, sort of, we

 

16:35

we don't really talk about the adult self in that way. would be more like your self has these eight qualities.  curiosity, compassion, courage, uh calm, clarity, connection, confidence, and creativity.  These are sort of the qualities of the self. So I know that

 

17:04

a client will have  a really good self on board when I can hear that they are really curious about what happened to a part of them, rather than if I hear any judgment or an agenda  or a big motion coming towards that part, I know there's another part present. Right, right, right. That's what I was going to ask you, especially like, let's say in couples therapy, when we feel that there's that anxious energy, the judgment,

 

17:32

that you're talking about, the blaming that must be coming from another part. A lot of people live out of those parts, most of their waking hours. And so is the goal to move them into that? What did you call it? The the self, I guess. Yeah. So the goal. So we could there's a process called unblending in IFS and in the couple's work where we are really helping the partner if it actually softens back.

 

18:02

a little bit and allows this client self to come through, this part doesn't have to be so alone because now the client's there in this capacity to be curious and calm. And in couples work, this is what we help them do, this unblending as well. And we call it a U-turn in couples work where instead of the client in a couple sort of sending blame and shame over to their partner,  I'm going to help that person sort of get to know, well,

 

18:32

what's actually activating you here and what's happening inside you so that they can turn around and  get to know their own system. Because in fact, as they get to know their own system, that's where safety and understanding lives. So eventually, whatever it is their partner is doing isn't going to have the same impact when they understand which parts of theirs got activated. It's great. Yeah, it's like, I think so often

 

19:00

in the couples therapy, almost like if my partner would just do this, then I would feel better. That's right. And then it's this vicious cycle that plays out.  what you're saying is that  you can help facilitate that person giving the thing to themselves, giving the love and the compassion and the understanding to themselves first. And then they can approach the conversation with their partner.

 

19:28

partner without blame or judgment or criticism. That would be the ideal, you know, but it's, but you know, it actually, don't even have to go that far with the couples work. So, you know, if you can imagine,  I mean, the way, so, so let me just step, take a few steps back here.  The IFS  version of couples work is called IFIO and that stands for intimacy from the inside out. And that model was developed by Tony Herbine Blank  and

 

19:58

You know, she draws from  her experience in imago therapy and psychodynamic therapy, systems thinking uh and IFS and neuroscience, neurobiology. And you know, what she really understood was, yeah, we need to actually unhook people from the other person and make them do this U-turn inside that that's Dick Schwartz's word, this U-turn inside.

 

20:25

And to actually be very explicit about discovering  what part of them goes into this protective stance and why, and what's that protector protecting?  And just the process of them starting to understand,  oh, when  my partner does this thing,  I tell myself I'm not important. And as soon as I've got that story going, then I'm not important.

 

20:55

I feel really bad. I feel ah embarrassed. I feel unworthy. And when I have those feelings, I also feel rage. And then what I actually do is I lash out. And when  we sort of take that a step further and say, well, that part of you that's lashing out, how is it actually trying to protect you? What's it trying to do to help you? Well, it wants my partner to stop doing that thing that makes me feel like I don't matter.

 

21:23

And so now we start to understand, because you think that you don't matter. And I wonder where that comes from. And we go deeper and deeper into wondering about that, that individual system. And you get to some story about why they have grown up believing they don't matter. And so they're so ready to go there when their partner does this thing. And so I think of it as the partner stepping on the landmine, but the partner hasn't placed it there. Right.

 

21:52

And if it were a different person, the partner might step on something in that person wouldn't have gone to, they don't care about me. They would have gone to a different thought. And so it's not really about the partner doing it on purpose. It's that what is living in me that, that gets easily activated when something comes in the way. Building a private practice can be challenging.

 

22:15

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22:43

Plus when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. That's right. That's very much in alignment with how I see

 

23:08

uh my own work in couples therapy,  what I see as so being so beneficial that sometimes I say this, I don't know if where this came from. It's not based on any statistic or anything, but I say something like, assuming my clients are ready to hear it, ah I will tell them like 90 % of these emotions that are coming up are your stuff. Like your partner, sure, they can take like 10 % responsibility for touching on that landmine, like you said, but like,

 

23:37

The more that each person has an understanding of what's going on within them, it's very empowering for them to  be more of all of those eight qualities that start with C in the relationship. That's right. And it's funny, I use that statistic too. And someone once challenged me and said, is that a real statistic?  Yeah,  right.

 

24:01

But you know, it's really, so descriptive. It's such a great metaphor. And I think it's very helpful for couples to hear because then, you know, they can both hear, okay, the intensity is really about my history  and something happened here. But I don't need to be so attached to this idea of blame. Right.  And I think it's a relief sometimes, I don't know if you find this, it's like the couples,

 

24:28

The perception is that if I feel so alone and that my partner doesn't care about me, it must be true. Like it must mean that my partner doesn't care. But when we reframe it in this way, when we realize that, that's just my perspective about it, then the partner can provide them with the reassurance that they do very much care about the other person.  And it's  just something that they're making up in their head about what's going on in the situation.

 

24:56

Yeah. And so, you know, here's an interesting thing about where IFS would take that even a step further, because I wonder if you've had this experience where, you know, this is what would happen in EFT is someone would sort of talk about their vulnerability, finally get there and they would be all sort of opened up and talking about feeling like no one cares. The partner would come in and say, but I care so much. And the one who says no one cares says, I don't believe that or possibly true. And this is where IFS is so helpful.

 

25:26

that is a part that you know really can't and it's not going to matter what any partner says  and so what's really going to matter at that point is does the does the individual who has this part who believes that can they start to really validate and get in touch with this part so so i just want to give a really concrete example because it  happened in my office and i was blown away because this happened again and again with a couple who

 

25:54

you know, would in any other  maybe couples context be considered uh a difficult couple? And this client may have even been labeled with BPD because they just refuse to take any of the goodness in from their partner. And as I just kept validating, okay, so there's this part that just doesn't believe it. So let's get to know this part, why, you know, what's happening for this part? What would happen if  it let that in?

 

26:22

And as I kept asking those questions, we got to some childhood story where this child was just never, ever safe. I can't exactly remember the story anymore. But what ended up happening was this, this child part was able to unblend the, the client self was there and said, Oh my goodness, I can really now I really see what happened to me as a child. And I said to the client, does this child know you're here? And first of all,  and so  that

 

26:51

became a parent that the child finally realized wasn't a child alone, that it actually had a person,  which was the client. And then I said, does this part know that you're married to this loving partner? And this part had no idea.  This part had never had an experience of love. And so even though the  person, of course, knows that they're married, when this part blended with the person and looked out the person's eyes,

 

27:19

They had no idea that they were married to a loving partner who cared about them. Fascinating. And it shifted everything for that person, their relationship. So people can get that compartmentalized with their parts. Yeah, that's amazing. I think there's so much value in that. I don't know if you would call it externalizing, you know, like in narrative therapy, that sort of externalizing of these parts of the  people just

 

27:49

allow them to  have such a deeper understanding of what's going on with within them. Like you're giving them language, you're giving them actual parts of themselves to visualize and see. And it just creates so much more clarity for people. I would imagine for these things where it, without that, it's like I'm sitting here and I'm getting angry and all I think is I'm an angry person. And then I feel ashamed. I feel bad about myself.

 

28:17

for that and then I feel, you know, whatever and it's like, it's just  like that unblended that makes sense to me, even though I don't know, you know, I don't know what that means exactly, but that makes sense to me as you say it. Yeah, yeah. So unblending is just sort of helping  the self and part sort of separate enough so that the self can be in relationship to the part. Otherwise they're one in the same. I, instead of I am an angry person, unblended is, I have an angry part. Right.

 

28:46

And what's really helpful with that, you know, in IFS terms is we never try to get rid of any of these parts because they all have value. What we are trying to do is help them out of the extreme role they're in. So for instance,  I don't ever not want to have the hair on the back of my neck stand up when I am walking down a dark street at 2 a.m. as a woman by myself. I do want a hypervigilant part.

 

29:13

uh to be there. I don't want to, you know, to heal myself to a point where that part no longer exists because then I'm making myself vulnerable. But what I don't want is that part to be working overtime so that when I'm sitting in a cafe with someone I love and trust, the hair on the back of my neck stands up and I'm flooded with anxiety when actually there's nothing wrong. Right. So, you know, when I see sometimes, you know, when I've been in groups of people from other couples therapy modalities and, you know, they say,

 

29:42

Oh, one of the partners when they come into therapy, they're so angry and I need to lay down some ground rules and  I need to create safety  or, you know, an EFT there are certain things that are contraindicated, like they won't let clients in if there's active drinking or active,  um, you know, suicidal ideation in IFS, that would be  a way of pathologizing those parts. And so we wouldn't do that. We would say there's some good reason why this person

 

30:11

has an angry part that's really active. And so let's actually say that to the client that, I hear how angry you are.  There's something here, there's a part of you that's really upset.  Let's see if we can hear what it has to say.  But you know,  as you're yelling, it may be hard for me to hear. I know I have a hard time listening when someone's yelling, because I'll get all my parts up.  So I just want you to know I'm interested and I'm here and you don't have to yell to get my attention.

 

30:40

I want to hear everything. And then that person doesn't have to feel the shame of being the angry one.  Yeah. And then their part feels validated and then it calms down. Yeah, exactly.  It's amazing how that happens. That's such a great example. When you actually,  instead of a therapist who might say, hey, let's we have ground rules here. You can't get angry in here. And it's just like an opposition kind of

 

31:10

Oppositional kind of feeling and that person doesn't feel validated at all for what's going on for them. That's right. You're shifting the energy to validate that part of them and then it's like I'm sure most of the time they feel a huge amount of reassurance like ah Like this person says it makes sense that I'm feeling this and I can talk about it more, you know, right? Yeah, and I think this is where you know this

 

31:36

One of the key elements of learning IFS is doing a lot of work on what we call therapist parts, which is, you know, might be called counter transference in other models, but we spend a lot of time there of really becoming super aware in this very explicit way. I also have parts.

 

31:57

So, you know,  in the past, I might be really activated by someone angry in my  therapy room because I had a really angry parent and so it was terrifying, especially if it was a woman. That for me was terrifying.  Give me an angry man every day, I was fine.  But I knew I had counter transference around that, around my relationship with my mom, but  I didn't know I had parts and I didn't know what unblending was and I didn't know how to help myself. And so when I...

 

32:26

when I did IFS and I worked on my own parts who were getting terrified and my own parts who also had their own anger and who would, uh you know, maybe try to meet this person with  anger or logic or all of the, all of the ways in which my managers tried to manage other people's anger. It just didn't work. The other person could sense I wasn't actually listening. I was no longer curious. I was trying to do something. I had an agenda and then I didn't feel heard.

 

32:56

And until I understood that I wasn't helpful in the room. And now I know when I,  and I still, I'll find myself, you know, arguing with the client or trying to logic them out of something. And then I realized, oh yeah, I have a part up a part that's trying to change their mind about something.  And so I will own it and say, you know what? I don't think I'm doing a good job right now of listening to you. There's this part of me that's trying to convince you of something. And I have no problem admitting that because there is a part of me that's trying to do something.

 

33:25

And then I'm modeling parts for them. I also have parts and I say, I'm just going to ask it to soften back because I'd really actually like to know why this is so important to you. Cause what I'm hearing is it's important. That's why you keep telling me. So help me understand. Well, to me, that's a very, very healthy way of bringing yourself into the room as a therapist, because you're modeling for them that no human being is perfect. All of us struggle with these types of parts. And you're also modeling the language around

 

33:56

When I'm feeling something, here's how I can express it without judgment or blame on anyone else. But this is what's coming up for me. So it makes a lot of sense to me. Does that mean doing your own IFS therapy is when you say like you, you need to have a good sense of that. If you're going to, know, for IFS therapists, is that  what, how you get there?

 

34:20

Yeah. So it's built into the trainings through the IFS Institute. It's a big piece of really learning about your therapist parts. And then the best way to learn, would say any modality is to be a client in it.  uh, ah and I think, you know, that message got reinforced to me all through all of the trainings I've done. And so IFS doesn't own that, but  I do, I have an IFS therapist and so I'm constantly learning about my own system.  And it's, it's so helpful.

 

34:50

in my work being a therapist is to know my own system. Yeah, and I think it might seem obvious.  But  I don't  I  actually believe there are a lot of therapists out there who still haven't received that message enough. So I think it's worth saying I truly believe we all need to go to do our own therapy to  especially if we're learning a model to get therapy in that model to experience that the work of that.

 

35:19

I mean, think especially in couples, I have a, I'm partial to couples therapists, but I think it's a harder thing to do. I think it's uh a very different thing to do than individual therapy. And I think all of us should be get ha doing our own work because that just helps us in the way that we show up with the people we work with.  Absolutely. And if we don't know what parts of ours are in the room, then we are going to be adding into their system.

 

35:47

things that don't belong there. Yeah, absolutely. So with the intimacy from the inside out,  anything else we should understand about, you know, taking the IFS model and other things that you do as far as the couples therapy part of it goes. So what I love about the protocol, both for individuals and for couples, and they're slightly different,  is that there is actually, you know, dare I say a formula.

 

36:17

Maybe it's more like a framework or a structure that makes a lot of sense. There's a logic to it. And it is basically a structure for curiosity. So let's say a couple came into my office who were on the verge of divorce.  My  goal is to, first of all, find out for them what's important to them  about the work that we're doing together. Because I'm not going to be deciding on whether they should stay together or get a divorce.

 

36:43

I'm so like in EFT in an IFIO, we're process consultants. So we are helping them understand how  what happens in their dynamic that stops them from being able to have a conversation about what's going on. Because  the content of that conversation, like divorce really belongs to them. You we're in no position to help them with those decisions from a content perspective.  But what I can do is find out

 

37:10

Well, what happened?  What happens between you two that you're on the brink of a divorce? Are you curious about the dynamic? And then,  you know, where EFT and IFIO would probably diverge is EFT would try to find a way to build a sense of safety through attachment between them right away.

 

37:37

And I FIO would so that secure base would come from the other person being the soft spot to land. Right. So it's building those bridges  between the two people from the get go.  And  ours is building the bridge from the person to their own wounded parts, as well as building the bridges across to the other person, but that we do the you turn in towards each person first. Right.

 

38:06

So I'm gonna give you a quick glimpse of what that could look like,  just in terms of the framework, because it's easy. Yeah, that's great. So  I would find out the first thing is, what got you activated about the person? What did they do? Was it their tone of voice, their body language? Was it the content? What was the thing that got you activated? And then  when you were activated, how did you know that? What happened in your body? Did your chest tighten? Did your stomach?

 

38:36

you know, clench, what were the body sensations? And then what did you tell yourself? And this to me is really key that doesn't happen in EFT. Let's hear what goes on in your mind when when you're reacting. And that's when you get to things like I've been disrespected.  I'm not cared for. I'm not the priority.  They don't see me. They don't hear me, you know.

 

39:03

it boils down to those kinds of things. And then when you tell yourself that about yourself or, and it could also be that they think I'm disgusting. So when you tell yourself that story and your stomach's clenched, how what's the emotion that goes with that? And that would, you know, could be frustration or rage as a first go around. And then what do you say or do from that place when all that is going on inside you? What do you say or do?

 

39:33

And that's the thing that comes over to the partner. The partner doesn't really see, have access to, I've been disrespected, my stomach is clenching,  know, uh I'm not the priority.  That's all happening internally for the one who's feeling it.  All the partner gets is the discharge, whether it's a shutdown or a lash out. And then I would go over to the partner and say, well, so when that lash out comes your way, what do you tell yourself? And then they've got a whole story going on.

 

40:02

But that story is about them. It's not actually about their partner. It's yeah, when they lash out at me, I feel like I'm not worthwhile. um You know, I'm I've always I'm just the punching bag. uh No one cares about my feelings. And then they're going to have an emotional response to that and a body response. And then they're going to have the reaction that comes back. So what I do is I help them. We track that. And then we name the protective behavior.

 

40:30

lashing out or the shutting down or whatever that looks like. And I get them to under to see, you know, it's that protective behaviors trying to do something for you. So let's find out.  So  the next level down is how's it trying to help you? And what's it afraid would happen if it didn't do it that way?  So and that will get us to the exile. So if someone is lashing out in anger, how's that trying to help you? We kind of did this, you know, a while back in the podcast, and that person said,

 

41:00

you know, to get the other one to stop hurting me.  And if you didn't lash out, what were you afraid, what are you afraid would happen? Oh, well, then they'll just keep doing that thing and it hurts me. Okay. And then what would happen if you were hurt? What are you afraid is going to happen to you? And usually, if you keep asking that question, what is going to happen? If they disrespect you, let's just

 

41:25

take it as the, you know, that let's say that were true that they do disrespect you. What would happen to you if you were disrespected? Why is that a terrible  thing for you to be disrespected? And then you get to, you know, what happened historically, because it's not true that that person disrespects them, but it is true that they've had the experience of being disrespected.  And then you, then what you do is you put it together to them,  put it together for them.

 

41:53

Okay, so it makes a lot of sense. This part that lashes out is really trying to protect you from that experience of being disrespected because that experience when you've had it has been terrible. So that intention makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? However, I wonder if sometimes it feels like there's no other option for you than to lash out. And  if you didn't  have to flood, if we could help you with the flooding of those feelings of like your stomach clenching and your

 

42:21

you know, the feelings of anger that you have, if we could help you with that flooded feeling so that you could maybe choose another option that maybe could get your need met, which is to find out whether or not you're being disrespected  or to let your partner know what you really need, which is I need to be prioritized or I need to know that I'm the priority. Would you be interested in finding another way that your need could actually get met? Because when you ask your clients if the need is getting met, they're going to say no.

 

42:52

It's not getting met when they lash out. That other person isn't going to say, Oh, I see you're lashing out because you don't feel like you're the priority.  They're going to go into their bunker and hide. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. So you kind of get to the bottom of the cycle or the pattern that goes out between them, help them identify what's coming up inside of them. Right.  And, guess, I guess you would use your clinical judgment.

 

43:19

to decide like if one person needs a little extra exploration and with some of those parts or doing, you know, doing a little bit of individual IFS at the presence of the partner that day or something, you just kind of go with what's in the room. That's right. I mean, what I'm describing is sort of  the overall process, but it doesn't have, you know, like that fully in every session,  but.

 

43:42

what you're saying if someone is  is you know, especially if you have someone with a lot of trauma, and it's very hard for them to unblend, you might be staying in the part where you keep saying, well, what's happening inside? What's happening there? Right, So how are you feeling and really validating and staying with it staying with them staying with it. If you start doing some intensive work like that with one person, do you coach the other person about what their role is? Yeah.

 

44:09

So yes, I would,  and this is the IFIO protocol is, know, if it looks like someone might need a  little more help on blending, then I always make sure to keep the other one in the room and say, you know, just check and see if you're here and you're available. Can you stay with me in curiosity? They may also be blended. And so, you know,  you may have to really titrate and just stay with just that first part of, okay, what's going on and go back and forth.

 

44:37

So that's what I mean by there's a framework. And then you have to use your clinical judgment  based on the clients you have in front of you about what the next steps are. But the framework helps hold the curiosity  and the  the no agenda  and keeping them curious about their own systems and helping them unblend from that part that is really active so that that part has another compassionate person there and it's not just me. Right, right.

 

45:07

That's great. Well, uh you're such a great teacher, Liz. I really appreciate this. I'm sure people are going to want to find out more.  What would be a good place for people to find out more about you find out more about IFS? Also, like what's the what would be the pathway like if someone's thinking about this? Should they take you know an IFS training first or  you know, IFIO training first or what's the the way?

 

45:36

So the IFS, you can't do IFIO until you've done the basic training because you really have to understand. Okay, great. That's good to know. Yeah. So if people are interested, they should go to the IFS Institute and they have to take the level one IFS and then apply to do the level two in IFIO because there's many level twos that have different foci. So one of the IFIO and what I offer are two

 

46:05

day workshops, I'm going to develop them out into four day workshops. They are introductions. They're not a replacement for IFIO, but they are workshops where people can really learn the protocol  and bring it into their practice as a way of just getting familiar with it. And then to really do the deep dive, they would do the IFIO. you know, it's,  I'll be honest, it's very hard to get into these m

 

46:34

trainings right now.  So there are other people who are offering IFS workshops like Derek Scott in Canada through IFS,  it's called IFS CA,  which is IFS Canada.  And they're, they're not replacements, but they are ways that you can start working with the model until you can get into the actual program at the IFS Institute.  Okay, great. And where, and where can people find out about your workshops or just about you in general? Yeah.

 

47:04

So they can go to my website, which is  LizPhilipsTherapy.ca and Phillips has two L's in it. I have a Facebook  page called  IFIOInformed. I have an IFIOInformed discussion group and I have an IFIOInformed page, but I can't remember the full name of it. Okay, I'll find it and I'll put a link to it in the show notes so people can find it.

 

47:30

And then  I pop into the couples therapist couch often and I'll post my workshops there.  I pop into, you know, make comments, but I love hearing from people. So people can reach out to me via email, which will be great. Great. Yeah. That's fantastic.  Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. And  like I said, this was a really, really good uh sort of introduction to IFS and IFIO.

 

47:58

So I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.  Thanks for having me, Shane. And I just want to spread the word because it's been, you know,  there's a model for everyone and  IFIO was mine. And I think if anyone's struggling, you know, with, with the model to maybe try it, it might work better. So I think it's a fantastic model. Yeah, absolutely. Well, hopefully we can catch up again at some point in the future. Sounds good. All right. Take care. You too. Thanks, Shane.

 

48:26

The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks.  Visit HelloAlma.com  or click on the link in the show notes to learn more.  And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy.  I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody!