268: Change Your Questions, Change Your Future with Elliott Connie

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Elliott Connie about Change Your Questions, Change Your Future. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 268: Change Your Questions, Change Your Future with Elliott Connie

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Join the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new 

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In this episode, Shane talks with Elliott Connie about Change Your Questions, Change Your Future. Elliott is a Psychotherapist, Author, Podcaster, and Trailblazer in Solution-Focused Therapy. Hear how to take care of yourself as a couples therapist, why Solution-Focused Brief Therapy (SFBT) is helpful, how to help your clients find inspiration, how to remind your clients who they are & what they want, and how to practice as a couples therapist. Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• Handling couples who seem to want different things
• Identifying what clients want on a deeper level
• How attachment to external factors creates suffering
• Why change starts with perception
• The importance of training instincts through repetition

To learn more about Elliott Connie, The Solution Focused Universe, his podcasts, and Change Your Questions, Change Your Future, visit:

ElliottConnie.com

TheSFU.cohttps://elliottconnie.com/m

ElliottConnie.com/Books

Instagram & Facebook @ElliottSpeaks

YouTube @ElliottConnieSpeaks

 

You can also listen to Elliott on Episode 96 & Episode 154 of The Couples Therapist Couch

Show Notes

• 268: Change Your Questions, Change Your Future with Elliott Connie
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [0:27] Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch 
• [1:10] Welcome, Elliott Connie, to the show!
• [1:53] Elliott's new book Change Your Questions, Change Your Future and podcast Family Therapy
• [2:56] The unique format of the Family Therapy podcast - following one family's journey
• [5:20] Translating solution-focused therapy into book form for general audiences
• [6:16] The connection between personal healing and clinical effectiveness
• [7:14] What makes solution-focused therapy so effective for creating change
• [8:12] The importance of genuine client connection over techniques and theory
• [10:05] Why solution-focused brief therapy  (SFBT) is "supreme" - efficiency as a secondary outcome
• [11:28] Solution-focused vs. problem-focused therapy: the restaurant menu analogy
• [12:25] Identifying what clients really want at a deeper level
• [14:25] Why therapists aren't trained to help clients articulate meaningful outcomes
• [15:24] Inspiration vs. motivation in creating lasting change
• [16:23] Handling couples who seem to want different things
• [17:52] Case example: The couple disagreeing about having another baby
• [21:42] Removing the power struggle by focusing on deeper outcomes
• [23:36] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [24:31] How attachment to external factors creates suffering
• [26:24] Building resilience so clients can handle life's inevitable challenges
• [28:48] The biker couple case: how one question transformed a session
• [33:39] Why client-driven interventions are more impactful than therapist-driven ones
• [35:07] Breaking couples free from the "I'll change when my partner changes" standoff
• [37:04] Understanding that change starts with perception, not behavior
• [38:27] The importance of training instincts through repetition
• [41:48] Learn more about Elliot Connie and The Solution Focused Universe

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00

We attach our happiness to so many external factors. And even more scary, we attach our happiness to external factors we can't control.

 

00:13

to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now,  your host,  Shane Birkel.

 

00:29

Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy.  Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

00:58

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and today I'm speaking with Elliott Connie, psychotherapist, author, podcaster, and trailblazer in solution-focused therapy. Hey Elliot, welcome to the show. What's up man, how you doing? Good, good.

 

01:24

It's great to connect with you again. Oh, I forgot to look before this. We've met. We've you've been on the show a couple of times before. Yeah,  I'll make sure and put that in the show notes so people can find those episodes as well. But why  don't you tell everyone a little bit more about what you've had going on?  You know, I think you just kind of summed it up. I am a podcaster and I have a podcast on the Black Effect Podcast Network. We're about to launch season two by the time this is released. Season two. Well, yeah, this is probably released right around the time.

 

01:53

Season two is dropped  of my podcast called Family Therapy.  I just had my newest book published.  The paperback version just released. It's called Change Your Questions, Change Your Future.  you know, I travel around the world trying to make this place a a better world. Yeah. And I know you teach therapists a lot. Is the book uh in the podcast, is that more for therapists or is it more just for the general public?

 

02:22

I was- I mean, this is probably a bad answer, but  to be honest with you, it's both.  I wanted to take my work.

 

02:31

and make it accessible to everybody, not just therapists. This thing that I've dedicated my life to. And both of these projects, like the podcast Family Therapy, I was approached by a guy named Charlamagne the God, who is the owner of the Black Effect Podcast Network. And basically what they wanted to do is see if I would host a show on their network, which is me like.

 

02:56

demonstrating therapy on a family and then the season follows that family. So it's easy one so it's not like a lot of shows like there's a different guest at every episode right makes this show so unique is it's one family and you follow them through the through the journey. Yeah, I did that for 2 reasons number one I wanted to demystify therapy in particular for the black and brown community. But I wanted to demystify therapy and let people see like

 

03:26

This is what clinical work actually looks like. And number two, I want to inspire people because if you can see yourself in the people that you see changing, then it will inspire you to make changes in your own life. So yeah, if you're a psychotherapist, you're going to watch that and you're 100 % going to learn a lot about solution focused brief therapy and how it works in real time with real clients. Instead of this theory stuff that we learned in school, you're actually going to learn

 

03:56

So, oh, when you're working with real people, like, is legitimately what it looks like.  But if you're a non-clinician, you're gonna see a really compelling, beautiful, inspirational story. uh Season one was, even being a part of it, it was one of the most inspirational things to watch this dad who had spent time in addiction and incarceration and...

 

04:21

create significant like family trauma for his children and grandchildren to watch him in his sixties and seventies fight to get his kids back and fight to like heal those those long-term wounds that his choices and action have created. was one of the most powerful things to see. so I think it's and I think the book is the same thing. Like I've been doing therapy for almost 20 years, all of it practicing from a solution focused perspective, which

 

04:51

as you know, and hopefully your guests know, is a questions-based process.  And I was watching people during those 20 years answer the questions I was asking in therapy and watching their lives, like, transform, watching their lives, like, completely turn around. And I was like,  we gotta, I said to Adam, my co-author, like, there's gotta be some sort of a way that people could read a book and experience that same kind of transformation.

 

05:20

So we started thinking about how do you put the question process of solution-focused brief therapy in book form  so that people would read the book and literally like change the kind of questions they ask themselves through this process  and have a better life. And that's what this book is about. So again, if you're  clinician, you're read this book and you're gonna be better at questions, which will make you better at solution-focused brief therapy. But if you're a non-collision clinician, you can read this book.

 

05:48

And you're going to get wildly inspired  and just be a better version of yourself. And for me, this is like the culmination. These two projects are like the culmination of everything I've been doing for the past 20 years. Yeah. That's amazing. That's awesome. How many books have you written?  Six.  Yeah.  And some of them are specifically for therapists  and, um, but I feel like  the more time I'm in practice, the more it feels like

 

06:16

my own personal healing and my own personal journey is intertwined with my ability to do good work as a therapist as well. Do you feel like that's true as true for you as well? Yeah, I think so. Like my own journey as a human can't be separated from my work of helping other people's journeys as humans. Like I'm a better human when I'm taking care of me, which makes me a better clinician to take care of the people that come and see me. Yeah, absolutely.

 

06:44

Well, I, um, I went to,  I can't remember if it was this last, actually, I don't think it was you and I, uh, ran into each other at the network or symposium in March.  Uh, but I don't think that was the time that I attended your workshop.  Um,  maybe it was the one before that,  but, I, I just learned so much  about solution focused therapy and I'd love, you know, I'm sure that's what we're going to get into today, but you know, what do you find?

 

07:14

that's so helpful about that approach that creates the change for people. think  that's a good question. And over the years, my answer to it has evolved. Like I remember, I remember in the early part of my career, like not wanting to offend people. Like I don't want to make it sound like I think solution, but we bring therapies better than this other thing. So people get offended that I think what they're doing isn't good. And I want to, I want to say very, very clearly, I think all therapy is good.

 

07:43

and bad, you know, like I think all therapy is good when it's done by clinician who A understands how to do that therapy and B understands regardless what approach you use, the, your, your real connection with your client is actually the most,  most significant predictor of change or lack of change. Like your real connection with, with your client. If you are a therapist and you  are  overly focused on techniques and theory,

 

08:12

You are not going to be the kind of therapist that produces consistent outcomes. That is just as true as true can be. That is just as real as real can get. That is just the absolute. That's the foundation of our work. get so frustrated in the world we live in now, Shane. And I'm sure you've seen this too. I'm a member of a bunch of like Facebook groups that are directed for clinicians. And I am legitimately appalled at some of the content I see in those groups.  Number one.

 

08:41

I'm convinced that psychotherapists are bad people. And my evidence of that is they talk to their colleagues like horribly. like, what is going on in these groups? But to the point here, therapists will say stuff like, I've got a client who  is struggling with whatever, uh drug addiction. Can anybody suggest how I should do these sessions? And I'm like, did you even go to grad school?

 

09:08

you should not be coming to Facebook asking questions like that. Right. And clinicians like that don't understand that the single most significant thing you can do for anybody is like genuinely care for them, like genuinely, honestly care for them. And if you did not learn that in graduate school and you're posting in Facebook groups asking, how do I run sessions when somebody has a, has an addiction? It's like,  Whoa, what are we doing as a field? So

 

09:36

My goal and mission has always been, I want to teach people how to actually do solution focused brief therapy.  Now,  having said that, that I think all therapy is good and all therapy is bad. I don't care if you're doing CBT, adlerian therapy, freudian therapy, structural family therapy, strategic family therapy, I don't care what you're doing. It's all good and it's all not good, depending upon how skilled you are and how much you understand that therapy is about a connection. But what I think makes solution focused brief therapy supreme

 

10:05

is number one, it's efficient. But I want people to understand when I say that the goal of the therapy is not efficiency.  Efficiency is just the secondary outcome of what it is that we're doing. I get emails from people that are like,  I think I'm doing solution focused brief therapy wrong because I've seen this client 20 times.  That's nothing to do with whether you're doing solution focused brief therapy right. Like the goal isn't efficiency.

 

10:35

That's just a secondary outcome when you focus on what the client wants to achieve versus what the client doesn't.  And the example I give people, if you go to a restaurant and the server says, what would you like to eat? And you scroll the menu looking for what you desire, you're going to find it quicker than if the server approaches you and says, what do you want to not eat?

 

11:02

and you order by process of elimination.  And I would say problem focused therapy is about process of elimination. We're helping our clients to achieve what they don't want to feel. So if the client says, I don't want to feel depressed, we're like, OK, let's remove that.  So what's next? Well, I don't want my children to misbehave. All right, great. Well, let's remove that. And what's next? Well, I don't want my relationship to fall apart. All right, great. Let's address that. And  you'll succeed.

 

11:28

But it just takes longer because you're achieving happiness through process of elimination. Solution focus, brief therapy is just more direct. We just ask people, what is it you want to achieve? And then people tell us, I want to be happy. I want to be sober. I want to be whatever. And as people move towards a meaningful  life experience, then all of those other things have to improve as well. And I think that's what makes solution focus, brief therapy, quite frankly, better than any other approach. Because it's the only approach that takes that.

 

11:58

position. Yeah. And I feel like it's so easy for therapists to get into the weeds when they start getting into the conversations and therapy sessions with the client and they lose sight of what they're even talking about or like, what's the, what's the, what is the purpose of what we're doing here? And I feel like the way you're talking about that, uh, maybe I'll say it as a question, you know, like, I mean, do you see it as like identifying

 

12:25

these things that the client wants, like what do you really want in your life? And then just sort of working towards that and helping them see what kinds of things are in the way of them getting there. No, I don't. Yes and no. So yes, this is about helping the client identify what they really want. And I mean like really want, right? Like I could ask someone like you like Shane, what do you want? And you might say, I'm in the mood for pizza, which is like, it's a true thing, but it's a very superficial experience.

 

12:56

But if I said like,  deep down in your heart of hearts, soul of souls, what is it you really want? And then in a deeper experience might be, I want somebody to listen to my podcast and experience some sort of a life change. Right? So if I said, so Shane, what do you want? You're like, Oh, I want pizza. And I'm like, all right, great. You have to like, you got to wake up tomorrow morning at 4am.

 

13:25

And you've got to, you've got to jog from your home to the Atlantic ocean,  swim across the Atlantic ocean to Italy to get the ingredients to make pizza and then swim back. You'd like, I'm not willing to go through all that for pizza. But what if your wife had left you and she took all the kids and I, and I get to a point of the, in the session where it's like, so what does it, you really want? Well, I my wife and kids back.

 

13:57

And then if I said, great, you can have them back, but you got to wake up tomorrow morning, 4 AM, you got to, you got to jog to the Atlantic ocean swim across the ocean. Uh, you got to get ingredients from pizza, bring it back. And then if you make the pizza for your wife and kids, they'll come back all of a sudden. like, you know what? I'm willing to do that because you just presented a meaningful outcome to me. And I think the art of solution folks, reef therapy starts with the ability to identify and help your client to articulate a meaningful outcome.

 

14:25

Which I don't think we're trained to do as therapists. I think what we're actually trained to do, scarily enough, is to go into the weeds. Like we feel as though if I'm not in the weeds, I'm not really doing real work. people use that phrase before and I'm like, well, that's crazy. The most impactful thing you can do  is present someone with a meaningful outcome and a realistic path to get it. That's the most impactful thing  you could ever do.

 

14:55

Now we don't, so I said yes and no, we don't spend any time thinking about the obstacles to that thing  because obstacles are irrelevant when you build up your resilience to do it. Yeah. Like so  obstacles just don't mean anything to us. Yeah. Well, yeah, I would use the word motivation,  right? You're creating a sense of motivation that's stronger than  whatever the obstacles might be. Right. And I like to use the word inspiration because motivation is like a mood that is temporary. But when you're inspired to do something,

 

15:24

you're capable of doing  really uncomfortable, unpleasant things in order to get you from where you are to where you want to be. And I think solution focused brief therapy is like inspirational therapy. Whereas I think most therapy is about problem solving there. Yeah, that's great. Well, I know you do a lot of couples therapy and I know  that's what we talk about a lot on here. I'm curious, you know, if you have two people in front of you  and each of the, you know, a lot of times what happens, I think is

 

15:54

what one person wants feels like uh it can happen  at the same time as what the other person wants. And it can be very challenging thing to navigate. And I'm just wondering if you could give an example in solution-focused therapy about how you navigate some of those conversations with couples. Yeah,  so you're right. I spend a lot of my time working with couples. And clinicians always ask me, I think the number one fear

 

16:23

of practicing solution-focused brief therapy with couples is if I convince a clinician that solution-focused brief therapy is about what the client wants to achieve, then the  overt fear that pops up is, what about two people who want to achieve two different things?  And  I would say in response to that, there's no such thing. Like there's no such thing as two people that want to achieve different things. It doesn't work that way. The closest I ever came to that.

 

16:54

Cause remember this is not about the Shane want pizza. Like Shane, are you, you're married, right? Yes. Yep. So there might be a chance. If I were talking to you and your partner, there may be a chance that I would say, Shane, what would you like for dinner? And you might say pizza  and your partner might say, I want Chinese food. Like,  it sounds like we want two different things, but underneath that, what we want is a satisfying dining experience.

 

17:24

So when you feel as though you have two people that have conflicting desires, you have to go a level deeper. Yeah. And I'll give you an example from a client I actually worked with several years ago, but,  uh, this particular client, came to my office and I said, we start solution focus group therapy sessions by asking about outcomes, not problems. And the way we do that is by asking, what are your best hopes from our talking? So this, this client.

 

17:52

came in and I said to the couple, what are your best hope from our talking? And the wife said, all I want is to have another baby. The wife said, all I want is to have another baby. To which the husband replied, over my dead body.  And the wife started to cry. So it sounds like they want two different things.

 

18:14

That's a good. This is a good example to use, right? Because you have to decide whether you're have a baby or not. There's not a there's not a compromise there really. Right. And as a clinician, I know there is no middle ground here. They're either going to have children, more children, or they are not going to have more children. So I turned to the woman. And I said, if after successful therapy, you and your husband decide that it is a good idea to have another baby, what difference would that make to you?

 

18:44

And she explained to me that they have one son together and the son is about three years old. And it was very difficult to get pregnant.  She had to take tons of like prenatal hormones.  It took forever to get pregnant. There may have been a miscarriage or two in there. Like the process of getting their son was very, very difficult. And she said, I grew up in a family as an only child. And I've always known I don't want to have an only child.

 

19:14

If I had another child, I would feel like I was living God's purpose for me as a mom, she said. So as a therapist, I said, so if somehow we have a conversation that makes you feel like you're living God's purpose for you as a mom, whether you have another child or not, would you be pleased? Now, do you see I very intentionally focused on, I wanna live God's purpose for me as a mom.

 

19:42

And I very intentionally removed how many children contributed to that. the wife, she said, yes, I would be pleased accepting my removal of children and focusing on God's purpose for her as a mom. So then I turned to the husband and I said, if after successful therapy, you and your wife decide that it is not a good idea to have another baby, what difference would that make for you? And the husband explained how horrible it was to watch the wife go through

 

20:12

I mean, those of you familiar with this process, if anyone's listening familiar with this process, some of those prenatal hormone treatments have a massive and negative impact on the woman as she is going through that experience. It's difficult on the personality. I mean, it was just really, really hard. And he talked about how hard it was to watch her go through that. And it wasn't like, oh, we're just going to take these pills for a week or so. And then it went on for over a year.

 

20:42

He lost his wife through these hormones for a year and he feels very lucky that they ended up having a son. And he feels like I don't want to risk it again to go through that process again. And maybe we, we won't get so lucky. Maybe we'll have a  son with some sort of, you know, degenerative issue or whatever. was very fearful. And the other thing he said was I own my own business. So  what she sounds says is like, I just want to have another child.

 

21:11

To me makes our family bigger and far more expensive. And I'll never forget. He said, I've got to make enough money to pay for our lifestyle, but also to pay for our future. And it's really stressful when you own your own business. So,  and he said, at the end of the day, I just want to be a good provider. So again, he gave me an opportunity to focus on something other than the number of children present.  So I said, after successful therapy, whether you have  one child as you currently do.

 

21:42

or 10 more kids,  what difference would it for you to know that you could always be a good provider? And he said, that would  mean everything to me. So now the family, the section is no longer about children. It's now about the husband feeling like a good provider and the wife feeling like she's living God's purpose for her as a mom. And that became  the therapy. We  really never talked about children anymore. We just talked about feeling like you're a good provider.

 

22:10

and your strength as a provider and what makes you a good provider. And we talked to the mom about feeling like she's living God-perfect for her as a mom and being the best mom she can be to one or additional children. There was so much progress with that family when we stopped focusing on whether we were going to have more children or not. Because that's nothing but a power struggle. I want more children. I want no more children. This is the power struggle of who's going to But now it becomes cooperative where they're like,

 

22:38

We're just trying to help each other achieve these goals of being a good provider and a good mom. The coolest thing though that happened with that particular situation is we met, I don't know, five, six times, whatever it was,  we made enough progress that they didn't need to talk to me anymore. And about a year later, maybe a little more than a year later, I got an email from the husband. He was, he had sold his business. They moved from Texas where the session happened to  some other beautiful state.

 

23:06

I don't know, somewhere up north. moved somewhere up north. But the coolest thing was, as he's explaining all the things that happened in the family and thanking me for helping them, the email came with a picture of he and his wife holding their new twin baby boys. Oh my gosh. One baby to three. Right. And it always makes me happy because when you remove the power struggle and you focus on the outcome, the client becomes whatever it is they were meant to become. And in this case, they had more children.

 

23:36

Building a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions.

 

24:03

and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment. Plus, when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. As you're talking about that, there's something very Zen.

 

24:31

about it, like the judgment that we bring, like the meaning that we make up about what's happening in our life, you know, like, if I think to myself, like, I can only be happy if I have pizza, then I'm suffering as long as I don't have pizza.  I'm suffering, but I'm creating that meaning in my mind, right? And the types of questions that you're asking and talking about is sort of shifting that meaning. Absolutely right. Yes, that's 100%. I think

 

24:59

And people do all the time. I can only be happy when I have that new job, when I pay off that debt, when I have that new car, when I'm in or out of this relationship. Like we attach our happiness to so many external factors. And even more scary, we attach our happiness to external factors we can't control.  I think that that's an  inefficient, ineffective way to go about life.

 

25:26

And I think it's an inefficient, ineffective way to go about therapy. Like as therapists, how often, and forget everything I just said about solution focused therapy, right? Let's just talk about like my original training was in CBT. So let's talk about like, problem focused therapy. How often have you been working with a client? You feel really good about the work that you're doing. You feel really good about the plan you have to go about that work. And you even feel good about the progress you're making. And then.

 

25:56

a circumstance completely outside of your clinical control or even your clinical awareness happens that completely ruins the entire therapy.  Like, like you're working with a client and they're like making progress, making progress, making progress, and then they get fired from their job. Like I have no control over that as a clinician. Right. But what if we could do therapy in a way that made people the most resilient versions of themselves?

 

26:24

So then when life inevitably happens, they don't come to therapy like,  now what am I going to do?  Everything's falling apart. They come to therapy like,  I know that I'm someone who can handle hard things. And that's a very different way to build people up. And I think problem-focused therapy sets people up to be circumstantial. And I want people to be  far more than

 

26:50

Well, yeah. And even with the power struggle that you mentioned, like in couples, right? It's sort of like,  uh, I think I definitely think there's like deeper psychological stuff playing out for people where it's like, you know, if my partner doesn't do this, it must mean that I'm  not lovable or something like that.  And like, like you said, I think I'm wondering about the secondary benefits, right? Once you start asking these questions, like in the example that you gave  when they're deciding to have a child or not.

 

27:20

Like once you change the conversation and start asking different questions, now all of sudden they're sort of broken free from the power struggle. And I imagine there's like secondary benefits that start happening where, you know, they're no longer feeling stuck in that.  True. And there's also, there's secondary benefits for you as a clinician because you're not, you're not sitting. I mean, how many times have you left a therapy session  or a full day of therapy? How many clinicians, and I hear this from everybody. like,

 

27:49

If people are listening to this podcast and if, or if you're watching it on YouTube, like leave a comment, cause I know this is true. How many times have you done a full day of therapy? And in particular, if you work with couples because it's such emotional work and you come home and you're like short with your husband, wife or kids and your justification for being short is I spent all day talking to other people about their problems.

 

28:18

I don't want to talk to you guys right now. I need a minute to like be, be myself.  Like  that's that like  energy expense that we spend because we spend all day talking to couples about their problems. But what if that weren't true? Like I saw  the first couple that shifted my brain. I'll never forget this couple.  It was very early in my clinical life. Like I got an internship towards the end of my master's program.

 

28:48

And  at the end of my master's program, they were, I was just super lucky. It was a paid internship. So when the semester ended and the internship was going to end, they just offered me a job. So that was where I started my counseling career. So this is very early in my counseling career.  And  it was a child, it was a child and family place. So most of the time I was just working with super rambunctious kids and very deviant teenagers.

 

29:17

But every now and then, rare, but every now and then you'd get something other than that. You'd get an individual or in this particular case, I'm about to share with you, a couple comes in. And this couple, just so you can have a picture of it, they looked like a biker couple. They were dressed in black leather. They had chains connecting their wallet to their... You know what I mean? They looked like a traditional biker couple. And they come into my office and I'm gonna do a salute folks brief therapy with them. they sit down and I said, what do you best hope from our talking?

 

29:46

and they immediately start arguing. Apparently, in this particular couple, the wife had reconnected with an ex-boyfriend on this website that was really popular at the time called MySpace. And the husband was really pissed when he found this out. And the husband was demanding the wife give her screen names and passwords to everything because he no longer trusted her. And the wife was saying, I didn't cheat on you. Like, we never met up or anything. I just reconnected with him on MySpace.

 

30:15

We did have some inappropriate conversations, but nothing  happened. So don't think I should give you my passwords. And they literally are yelling and screaming that the session that every couple of therapists fears is like, all you're doing is refereeing and arguments, trying to make sure no one hurts the other person. They're literally going to kill each other. Somewhere in that process of they're about to kill each other,  I decide to say,  in my head, I was thinking,

 

30:44

It's so weird that like at some point in your lives, you guys were so deeply in love. And now you're in my office calling each other names, yelling and screaming. And I said, how did you guys even meet? And to be honest with you, I was asking it more as a smart ass. I was way done thinking as a clinician that session because I couldn't get a word in.  And I said, how did you guys even meet? And they immediately started smiling. Like they looked at me and they started smiling.

 

31:14

The wife took her hand and softly put it on his leg and said, do you want to tell him the story or should I? And the husband said, you tell it way better than I do. You tell it. And I'm sitting there like, what the hell just happened? Like a minute ago, you guys were yelling and screaming and now. So then they tell me this story. Like he was a tow tuck driver and she was driving home from a nightclub or whatever she was doing.

 

31:42

And it was in the winter and there was a snowstorm and she got stuck on the side of the road in the snow,  which by the way in Texas meant like this much snow and she was stuck in the side road in the snow. So she calls a tow truck to tow her out of this ice patch that she was stuck on or whatever.  And  he said it was the most beautiful woman he'd ever seen. So when he got done towing her truck, he worked up the nerve to ask her, can I have your phone number? And she gave it to him. And I said,

 

32:11

Do you normally give your phone number to tow truck drivers and sign a road? She said, no, never, never done it before. Do you normally ask the people that you tow? Do you normally ask them for their phone number? He said, no, I've never, never done that before. So what made you guys different? And then that became the conversation. Why'd you do it this time? And how did know you could give them, give them the number, blah, blah, blah. The next week they came back to therapy and they were literally making out in the waiting room as I was finishing with my previous client.

 

32:38

So I go to the waiting room and I have to like, you know, break them up for me making out and they came in the office and something was so obviously different. I said, what's been different? And they told me a story that I couldn't believe. And the wife said, he made the bed up with me in it. And I said, what, what do you mean? And she said, the next morning after we left the therapy session, we hadn't shared the story of how we got together.

 

33:09

in years.  And he wakes up before me and he's got to turn on the lights and get dressed and brush his teeth and all the things. When he was doing that, I was laying in bed and she said, have you ever felt how gentle it is when someone drops warm sheets on you? She said, it's a very pleasant feeling.  And he got up and got dressed the next morning after that session.  And right before he left, he like fluffed the bed so the sheets would fall on me. And she said, in that moment, I knew he still loved me.

 

33:39

And I was like, oh, wow, how did you respond? She said, I gave him my screen names and passwords. And it was in that moment I realized when we do therapy like this, we leave the therapy session energized. Because I couldn't wait to tell people about that. was like, holy cow, like you guys want to hear what just happened with this client I was just working with? And the other thing I realized was a client-driven intervention will always be more impactful than a therapist-driven That's good. That's good. Because I never would have thought, I never would have said to that couple, I got an idea.

 

34:09

go home and drop the sheets on your wife. I never would have thought about that. But he knew what to do, and she knew how to receive what he did, and it completely changed them. not only is doing this kind of therapy good for the client, because in a moment, their mood drastically changed, which I now know neurobiologically, you can't have two  competing thoughts. The human brain can't do it.

 

34:36

So if in one moment you're like, I'm so mad because that's the assholes trying to get my passwords and I ask a question like, how did you guys meet? It shifted to,  that was the hero who came and told me in the middle of the night out of the ice. And if we can stay in that mindset, then we have an opportunity to create change. I think too often therapy holds the client in the problem mindset. And then we wondering why is progress not happening? Well, progress isn't happening because you're not allowing for the mindset to shift.

 

35:07

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And in that case, you know, with couples, there's often this  feeling of like,  I'll do the work once my partner does this, this and this, right? It's like, or like I'll dive in the water. We're both tiptoeing around  the pool and I'll dive in the water if my partner does first. Right.  And there's this feeling of like, I don't want to be vulnerable. I don't want to put myself in a position where I could be hurt.  And

 

35:37

I think what you're talking about, like the types of conversations that I've seen a lot of couples, therapists have keeps the couple stuck in that sort of place. I think that's true. I think it's absolutely true. We don't do it on purpose, but we do it consistently. Yeah.  We have to own that. Yeah. Yeah. And the, know, the way you're talking about the solution focus questions really, I can see how that could break people out of that really quickly and help them to sort of reframe the types of conversations they're having with each other.

 

36:07

Yeah, it's, it's, it's literally instant. When, when they were in my office fighting, she viewed him as the jerk that's trying to control me and get my screen names and passwords.  And I'm not saying she should have given them to him.  I don't have an opinion on that actually. Yeah. But when I said, how'd you guys meet in order to answer that question, she had to change how she viewed him. So I have to, I have to remember.

 

36:35

that he was my knight in shining armor that showed up in a tow truck in the middle of the night after I'd left the club to tow me out of ice. And if I can have a therapy with that person, then I'm significantly more likely to create positive change. It's just most therapists do not understand change. I know that sounds like a crazy thing for me to say, but change actually starts with your perception.

 

37:04

It doesn't start with like, all right, I'm going to go home and I'm going to, you know,  stop drinking alcohol. Like that's not how change happens. Change happens when you view yourself as worthy of not drinking alcohol, which is why therapy is so important because in the therapy session, I can remind you that you're a dad and I can remind you.

 

37:30

that you deserve happiness and joy and that alcohol is actually a thief of your happiness and joy. And when you change your perspective, then when you go home,  alcohol is now a distraction from the things you ultimately want. And most people don't spend a lot of time thinking about that thing that they  actually want. They spend a lot of their time focused on other craziness. But if you can focus on that thing that you actually want, your life is going to get better.

 

37:59

very fast.  Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And it's like, I mean, I imagine even, even if you,  like you were saying at the beginning, like, even if you  have some training in solution focused therapy, I imagine practicing makes a big difference and like having the instincts to ask the right questions at the right time and take a very certain direction. Man, that's so it's, you use the word that I love that you use, which is instincts.

 

38:27

Training is not about how much you know about theory. Training is about your instincts. Like I was watching football this weekend. And when you see these people, like  I watched it,  I mean, you might have to be a fan to understand this, but  I was watching  one game  and the quarterback is holding the ball.  And there was a guy that he

 

38:55

Like he wasn't looking at, he couldn't see him. But he could feel him and he dodged him and then threw the ball. And it's like, how did he know to dodge that person? Well, then you have to think how much training has that person done to hone his instincts so sharply that he's now taking in information by other ways, right? So for example, and again, you might have to be a fan to understand this, but bear with me.

 

39:24

If I'm a quarterback, I know if I've been holding the ball for long enough, about three seconds, it is very likely that someone has broken free.  Someone is avoiding one of my blockers and is going to come and tackle me because I know that  simply because how long I've been holding, holding the ball. And I also know if the left tackle is outside of my field division.

 

39:53

So too is the person he's blocking. All of that is instincts. And how do you train that? By doing thousands upon thousands upon thousands of repetition in practice. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of repetition in games by the time you get to the NFL. So you can actually throw the ball  after dodging someone that you never really saw. You just felt it. Well,  I don't think...

 

40:21

clinicians train to hone their instincts enough in whatever it is they're doing. Like, of course, I'm talking about to lose focus through therapy because that's my field of expertise. honestly, ask yourselves, like, if you guys practice CBT, have you really trained? Or did you just learn about it and get good grades in an exam? Right? Because those are two completely different things. You have to like really train. You have to like really, really train.

 

40:51

And I think I have very strong solution focused instincts because I've really worked at it. Like I've really, really trained and I, and I don't mean to say that I'm better than anyone else. I just took my, my athletic background and applied it to therapy. Like when I was coming up as a clinician, I used to record my therapy sessions and watch them over and over and over again. How many of you, how many people did that? I never knew I was going to be some famous clinician presenting all over the world and showing some of those.

 

41:20

Videos, some of the videos I show the audio quality is terrible because I never thought the world would see it. I was just like, if in order for me to learn how to hit a baseball, used to, my coach used to record me hitting a baseball. So in my  knucklehead brain, if I want to get good at therapy, I should probably do the same things that got me good at baseball. And I don't think enough of us in our field train  our instincts or hone our craft. We treat therapy as if it's like,

 

41:48

an intellectual exercise and it's not.  Yeah, that's fantastic. That's so good for people to hear. And, um, what are the best ways? I know we're coming to the end here, but like, obviously you have your books, you have your podcasts, but you also have trainings. I think, right. Do you still teach live trainings  or trainings or like,  um, tell everybody a little bit more like, like what would be the next steps if they're interested in  learning more?

 

42:19

Yeah. Like if anybody wants to learn more about solution focused brief therapy, I founded and run the largest training organization dedicated to solution focused brief therapy in the entire world. It's called the solution focused universe.  And,  um, you can go to my website, Elliot connie.com or my training organization's website, which is the  S F  U.com.  And, uh, you can learn all kinds of stuff or follow me on social media. You can follow me  on,  um, Instagram, Facebook.

 

42:49

at Elliot Speaks is my handle on both and I'd love to continue to talk to people. You have a ton of videos on YouTube as well, right? I do. Yeah, I a YouTube channel that has a lot of videos. My YouTube channel is pretty popular. And also, if you want to change your life, get this book. Yeah, great. That's great. Change your questions, change your future. yeah,  everybody can go get the book right away. But um yeah, thank you so much.

 

43:16

I really appreciate you coming on. It's always really good to talk to you. I mean, I feel like you're such a great teacher. Uh, and I really,  it's always great talking to you. Always learn so much. Yeah. It's great to talk to you too, bro. And it's been cool to watch you. I remember around COVID seeing some of your videos, I think on tech talk at that time. And then I remember you launched the Facebook group slash podcast and then to see years later what it's grown into, man. It's awesome. Oh, thank you so much. That's great. Yeah. Thank you.

 

43:45

Thank you. Are you still, I was going to ask you, are you still doing any comedy stuff? Yeah, I still do comedy. I my schedule is so busy, not as much as I'd like to, but I'm still in the comedy world. That's awesome. Still in the game. Awesome. Good. Good. Well, great to see you again and catch up again soon. Sounds good, man. Talk soon. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

44:14

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks.  Visit HelloAlma.com  or click on the link in the show notes to learn more.  And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy.  I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time.  Bye, everybody!