264: Parents in Love: A Guide to Great Sex After Kids with Dr. Rebecca Howard Eudy

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Rebecca Howard Eudy about Parents in Love: A Guide to Great Sex After Kids. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

• Episode Summary & Player
• Show Notes
• The Couples Therapist Couch Summary
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The Couples Therapist Couch 264: Parents in Love: A Guide to Great Sex After Kids with Dr. Rebecca Howard Eudy

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

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In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Rebecca Howard Eudy about Parents in Love: A Guide to Great Sex After Kids. Rebecca is a certified sex therapist, couples therapist, and author who helps individuals & couples strengthen emotional bonds, overcome desire differences, and rediscover pleasure & closeness in their relationships. Hear why it’s completely normal for partners to have a difference in desire after having kids, which partner to focus more heavily on as a couples therapist, why the pursuer-withdrawer dynamic often flip-flops in the bedroom, the perks of sensate focus, and the homework to give your clients as it relates to sex. Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• The challenge of desire differences for couples
• Assessing pleasure: Is the sex actually good?
• The sexual cycle: pursuer and withdrawer dynamics
• Shifting to a generous mindset in relationships
• Owning your feelings and building trust

To learn more about Dr. Rebecca Howard Eudy and her book, Parents in Love: A Guide to Great Sex After Kids, visit:

RebeccaEudy.com

RebeccaEudy.com/Parents-in-Love

Show Notes

• 264: Parents in Love: A Guide to Great Sex After Kids with Dr. Rebecca Howard Eudy
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [0:27] Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch 
• [0:56] Welcome, Rebecca Howard Eudy, to the show!
• [4:18] The challenge of desire differences for couples
• [7:05] Reframing the "problem to be fixed" mindset
• [10:30] Women's desire changes and missing it for themselves
• [14:19] What people want: to feel desired and connected
• [18:10] Assessing pleasure: Is the sex actually good?
• [21:07] Both partners are in pain - highlighting shared struggle
• [24:24] The sexual cycle: pursuer and withdrawer dynamics
• [26:22] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [28:15] The flip-flop cycle: emotional vs. sexual pursuit
• [31:17] Shifting to a generous mindset in relationships
• [34:13] Introduction to sensate focus exercises
• [37:34] Strategic intervention: taking sex off the table
• [40:28] Addressing entitlement and owning your emotions
• [43:21] Owning your feelings and building trust
• [46:40] Starting with what turns you off vs. what turns you on
• [49:57] Parents in Love covers fertility through empty nesting
• [52:44] Final thoughts and where to find Dr. Rebecca Howard Eudy
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

 

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This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

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Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00

They're the one who's saying, hey, what about tonight? Hey, what about tonight? Hey, what about tonight? Hey, what's wrong with you?  What's wrong with me?

 

00:11

The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now  your host,  Shane Birkel.

 

00:27

Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy.  Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

00:56

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone, welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and today I'm speaking with Rebecca Howard Eudy, couples therapist, sex therapist, and author of the book, Parents in Love, a guide to great sex after kids. Hey Rebecca, welcome to the show. Hey Shane, thanks for having me.

 

01:24

Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited. mean, we're recording this ahead of time, but I think when this is being released, the book is uh available like maybe as of today or very soon. everybody should go check that out. And even if it's not, you can pre-order it. So, but uh congratulations on your book launch. Yeah, thanks. You know, it's a funny thing writing a book because it really happened between like the hours of five and seven AM, like in my

 

01:54

office on the third floor of my house in this little cocoon and then Now it's out into the world, you know, and it's a it's a funny thing. Yeah, that's great I mean I feel like You really do have to be intentional about something like that like carving out the time to dedicate to that other at least in my experience Otherwise, it just doesn't get happen doesn't get done. That's right. That's absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah and I mean and do you have kids I mean obviously that

 

02:24

It's what the book is about, but that obviously adds a lot of variables and consideration when you're trying to write the book. Yeah, that's why it starts at, that's when my writing time starts at 5 a.m. Yeah. Yes, I do. I do have kids. I've got two boys, nine and 11. Okay. Yeah. Great. Well, yeah. Tell us more about yourself and what inspired you to write the book.

 

02:52

Yeah, absolutely. So I, like you, am a couples therapist.  I  am trained, I'm certified in emotionally focused therapy, and I'm also a sex therapist. I'm an ASECT certified sex therapist.  And I have a PhD in clinical sexology as well. So,  you know, I sort of was led into couples therapy through  doing individual therapy and looking for something really dynamic.

 

03:22

And so then when I  started getting trained in couples therapy, I was like, this is pretty dynamic. um And I don't know, it's just, I love it. It's really great. So the book was really born of my experience working with couples.  One of  the most common things that brings couples into sex therapy in particular is a difference in desire. And that  gets even more likely to happen.

 

03:50

after having kids.  All of the hormonal changes, all of the changes in your relationship, the changes in the amount of time that you have, and it can really be a struggle and it really can cause a lot of pain, this difference in desire on both sides. And so I really saw this coming up again and again, over and over again with couples. And so that's really where the book was born is through my own experience being a parent.

 

04:18

And also, you know, my experience with the couples that I was working with. Yeah. Yeah. And I, that's what I've seen too. This can just be so hard,  uh, for people because I,  I mean, a big part of it in my mind is because both people are being really considerate with each other, which is kind of, kind of a strange, they ended up being really angry at each other maybe, but there's this feeling of like,

 

04:42

well, I don't want to be a burden on my partner, right? I don't want to ask for what I want or talk about what I want because I don't want to make them feel bad because I know they're not interested, right? And the person on the other side is like, well, I feel guilty because  I know my partner wants to connect in this way and it's not happening and like they feel bad and it just makes it so hard.  why should we even talk about it? Because we're not going to be able to solve it.

 

05:08

We both want different things and we might as well just avoid it, right? That's the feeling that I often experience when people are going through this as couples Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly what I've I've seen as well that  often people do come in and they can't even talk about it it because it results in a fight or they just don't understand each other and each of them feels  so  Unseen and frustrated. I think you're right. There is a lot of

 

05:37

trying to be considerate of each other,  but everybody wants to be wanted and desired by their partner and nobody wants to feel like they're broken or they're the problem or something's wrong with them. And so it's really this  losing battle, this losing cycle  where it can just get worse and worse. And I think you're exactly right that a lot of couples end up feeling like there's nothing to do about it.

 

06:05

And I think that that's not helped by the fact that it's sort of a punchline. You know, it's like if you never want to have sex again, you know, get married and have a couple of kids like, yeah, it's just something that it's like, oh yeah, well, that makes sense. You know, that happens. mean like you mean like you think people end up being resigned to it? It's like, yeah, oh, like we're married now. Oh yeah, we have little kids. Like I guess that part of our life is over. I yeah, I mean, that's that I think so.

 

06:35

Yeah, definitely. And it just doesn't have to be that way.  But I don't think people understand that. don't think that people  have the resources. don't, we don't talk about it as something that actually is really,  I hesitate to use the word fixable, but treatable. know, I mean, and I don't hesitate to use the word fixable because I think it can't be fixed, but I don't even like to label it as something that needs fixing as much. Wait, wait, wait.

 

07:05

Say more about what do mean by that? Well, if we set it up as a problem to be fixed,  that means that we're identifying usually what that means when couples come to see me is that they have together identified  one person and usually the low desire partner  as the problem. You know, maybe there's some hormonal stuff going on or maybe there's,  you know, something deeper, you know, this is a problem. And a lot of times, Shane, I actually,

 

07:35

have the lower desire partner coming in and saying, I really want to fix this. This is causing all of this resentment and anger and issues in our relationship. Yeah. I was going to ask you about that because I can imagine it's sort of like anytime we're working with people in couples therapy is like, is the topic actually, is the issue actually the issue? the, whatever they're talking about.  So like,

 

08:01

We can make up that sex is the issue in this situation, but it's really probably touching on much deeper themes for people.  I like  the way you said that because I'm very, very mindful and conscious of not shaming the person  as if to say, well, normal human beings just want to have sex. So what's wrong with you for being the one who doesn't want to? Right? Like I think we have to be very careful about that.

 

08:30

Yeah, absolutely. The problem is not an individual. The problem is the difference  in their desires.  So I have worked with couples who both,  there's some couples who, you know, maybe they're having sex every day and each one of them wants to, and that's great. And there's no issue. There's other couples that I've worked with who rarely have sex. You maybe they're having sex a couple of times a year  and that's also fine with both of them. Yes. there's no issue. Exactly. Exactly.

 

09:01

So it's only when there's a difference in desire  and we could just as easily say that it's the person who wants to have sex more  that's the issue than  the person who wants to have sex less.  But neither to identify one person  is not realistic. It's not accurate. It's the difference. It's the tension between that then brings up  all kinds of  messy,  deep feelings.

 

09:31

for everybody involved. Yeah. Well, and I find it and I don't know, I find it easier  to focus on the person who wants to have sex more in some ways because they would be the one who's actually defining that there's a problem that even exists.  Right. Right. Because sometimes in  every situation is different. uh But sometimes it's sort of like

 

10:00

Well, the other partner might say there is no problem here. Like, like the, you know, they, they feel like, you know, maybe you have sex once a month or something and they're fine with that and feel good about that. it's whatever it's like, what's it like for you that your partner doesn't want to have sex with you as often as you'd like to,  um, and like, you know, make it a conversation for them instead of sort of figuring out what's appropriate or what's the right amount or something. Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

 

10:30

The right amount is whatever works for, you know, the individual couple.  And I think that that's an interesting  way of approaching it, that it's like, well, what is it like for you to not, to be with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you as much as you want to have sex with them?  That's  often like really difficult. That's going to bring up a lot of feelings likely  about desirability,  about  connection, about all kinds of things.  But you know, I also,

 

10:59

I think it is often the case that people's desire, and often this is  more likely to be women, that their desire does change, especially after having kids.  And so I do have a lot of female partners who might be coming in in a heterosexual relationship and saying,  I've lost this. I feel like my desire has changed a lot and they miss it for themselves.

 

11:26

And that's actually a really great place to start from as well. That's sort of, because that's a place of ownership. I want this for me, not just I want this because my partner's pissed at me  and is sulky when I say no, and I don't want to have tension in our relationship. I mean, that, certainly can be the case as well, but that place of, I want this for me is a great place to start from. Yeah, that's great. Well, and you're defining.

 

11:54

different reasons to be motivated to change, right? Like, and if your partner's upset, that's certainly one motivation, but  that's a uh whole other motivation if you feel like you're missing part of  something that you had before that you want back. Yeah. You know, I think that approaching sex for relational reasons  and  changing

 

12:22

your sex life for relational reasons. So an example of that would be my partner gets really upset and we're really disconnected and I don't want that to happen.  You know, that is a secondary game. There is desire there.  I want to be connected to my partner. I don't want them to feel bad. I don't want them to be upset. There's nothing wrong with that as a motivation, but that only really takes you so far.  You know, that takes you to the point where maybe you're having sex just enough so that your partner is not upset with you anymore.

 

12:52

Yeah, I was going to say too, like it could be a little dangerous. It's something to be very mindful of as well. Especially if there's a male female history of thousands of years  of  female partners appeasing male partners. And it's sort of like you want to make sure you're not doing it because you feel like you have to,  right? Right. You're not doing it because  there are really negative consequences if you don't.

 

13:21

or something like that. And again, this would be a very good reason to  work with a therapist. If you feel like there's that kind of energy coming into it, I guess as the way you and I are talking about it is more like,  this is a very loving, supportive relationship. You know, I may not be in the mood to wash the dishes today, but I know it's going to be really  helpful for my partner. And so I'm willing to  do something like that again.

 

13:50

I hesitate even in the way I'm saying that, but just something to be very mindful of. Yeah, definitely. When there's a lot of obligation sex  in a relationship, because that's what you're talking about is like just having sex for the other person.  That tends to be deeply unsatisfying for both people and kills desire. And  really truly for both people. I have yet to run across  a high desire partner who is fully satisfied with their partner just having sex.

 

14:19

to appease them. Yeah. Yeah. Because what people want is to feel desire. They want to feel  wanted and connected. That's why we want to have sex with other people. If it's just about the physicality, a partner can just masturbate and then that does the same thing. So it's about the connection. Yeah. I know  we dove in and this has been so good so far, but

 

14:48

I feel like I should give you a chance to take a step back. As these couples are coming into our office for the first time, are there a lot of commonalities in the themes that you see?  I know we're already touching on a bunch of them, but  what are some of the things we should be considering if we're working with couples like these?  Definitely  challenging  shame and normalizing.

 

15:18

This  what the research really shows is that a difference in desire  is  a feature of long term relationships. Like  you are really almost guaranteed to have a difference in desire  at some point in a long term relationship. Yeah. So couples who don't struggle with this  are the exception, not the rule. Uh huh. That's great. And that may fluctuate.

 

15:46

You know, there may be sometimes, especially people often will refer to the beginning of their relationship as a time when there was a lot more spontaneous desire, they were having sex a lot more,  you know, maybe they'll refer back to, I felt I really wanted to have sex then and I don't anymore, or my partner really always wanted to have sex, we were more spontaneous. And that does change over time. And so there is fluctuation. And sometimes it can be that there's like a little bit of a flip flop. So one partner,

 

16:16

is the high desire partner for a while and then it kind of switches and changes. In my experience, it's more common that some, that one person even accounting for fluctuations in desire  tends to have a higher sex drive than the other if there's, if there's a consistent difference in desire. Uh huh. Yeah. I think people make up a lot of meaning about that in their mind, right? Like, well, we had a good sex life for the first year of our relationship. So

 

16:45

What does that mean that we  no longer  are interested?  just building up,  even if they don't,  I feel like on one level, they don't even feel like it's  that big of a problem, but  it's sort of like this meaning that they're making up about it. Yeah, it's true. I I think that sex is just a very loaded topic.  have, all of us have very complicated.

 

17:11

feelings  and meanings around sex because for  most people it was not something that they maybe got great education about it was not something that was talked about openly in their family many people  have a lot of shame a lot of gills a lot of feelings of whether they're they're good enough. And even if that's not something that resonates with the folks that you're working with which  to be honest, I

 

17:41

almost never found to be the case. Like I think that usually that this is an area where there's a higher concentration of those negative beliefs, those feelings of shame.  It's an area of vulnerability. And so it is very vulnerable to initiate sex with your partner and have them and be repeatedly rejected. Or it's very vulnerable to  be willing to enter into  any sort of sexual encounter

 

18:10

with your partner  if you're not sure how that's gonna go or how you're gonna feel.  People really struggle to talk about what they want.  They really struggle to communicate their needs.  One of the things that I often find with couples, one of the things that I do first  is to assess  what's the pleasure like. So Emily Nagowski, I think really well said  in her books,  she talks about the pleasures of the measure.  So if the sex is really pleasurable,

 

18:40

And there's a difference in desire.  if, if say you have a couple that you're working with and the sex is great, they both say, absolutely. And you want to get people individually to talk about this because you want them to be able to tell you like handedly how sex is. They're not going to probably say in front of their partner, sex is terrible. That's why I don't ever want to it, but they will say that to you individually. And so if the sex, if you have a couple where they both agree and the sex is really great, when they do it, they just don't do it enough.

 

19:10

then that's really an initiation challenge. What's holding them back from wanting  to get to the place where they can be open to having sex or even to being sexual with each other.  And often one person is held back more than the other. So that's where the difference of desire comes in. Okay. So that's one sort of scenario and we can talk about how to work with that.  The other scenario might be a situation where there isn't actually a whole lot of pleasure.

 

19:41

And typically that might be for one person more than the other that they may not really be feeling a lot of pleasure in their sexual relationship with their partner. And so then they don't want to have sex because why do you want to have bad sex?  that's that's, and there's a way that you sort of work with that. Sometimes it can be both that shame  and guilt and feeling like broken or unwanted that can make the sex not so pleasurable. Yeah.

 

20:10

Part of it is sort of teasing out  what's actually going on there. Yeah. And you were just saying when you work with people, you try to see them individually, at least at first to really get their honest perspective about what's happening. Yeah, definitely. I don't know about you, Shane, but I always do that when I work with couples,  even if they're not coming in for a sexual issue,  because I do work with a lot of couples who

 

20:38

are just coming in for sort of run of the mill couples therapy and the sex is fine and they don't really want to work on it.  But I usually will meet with people  together, like all three of us together.  And then typically the second and third sessions will be the individual sessions.  And then we'll dive into the couples work together. Sometimes we might do two or three couple sessions and then individuals. Yeah. You know, what are some of the things that happen for people when

 

21:07

Like they've tried to talk about it at home or  before they come into therapy or they can't because they struggle so much. And like, what are some of the things that you  start to facilitate for them to be able to  actually  have this conversation? Well, typically  they both are in a lot of pain. Yeah. You know, and so that  highlighting how hard it is for both of them.

 

21:37

Because a lot of times when people come in, they have the impression that one person is working harder than the other, or it's just not important to one person. And so really highlighting and helping them understand that they're both in a lot of pain, they're both really struggling, can really help. And normalizing the struggles that they're going through as well as really a starting point. Like we have to break down the

 

22:06

story that they might be telling about  what's going on between them.  So for instance, like a story that's pretty common that couples kind of like collaborate on that they both buy into  is that there's something wrong with the low desire partner. Yeah. So that's an example of something that when that, when they're telling that story and they're both telling that story, I don't know what's wrong with me. I don't know what's wrong with her. Can we just fix their desire?

 

22:35

And then everything's fine. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And what do do with that? If that's the story? Well, I tell them that it's not true. Nice. Yeah. I mean, that's really what it's, it's just not true. Yeah. But what is the truth? is the truth? What's the truth? What's the truth? So

 

22:59

There are some situations in the situation of like, if you have a partner who has like some pretty severe sexual trauma history, or, you know, there might be some hormonal issues or something like that. So there are some cases where,  There's a legitimate things that are a barrier, but even then that's not their fault. So then you break down the story about what it means to be broken, what it means to fix.  Yeah.

 

23:27

But do you  look at it more like, let's figure out more about the emotional pattern that's happening between the two of you, you know, that instead of looking at it like this person is  the problem and needs to be fixed.  Like there are things that I'm assuming like there are things that this pattern is serving for both of you  that's keeping you stuck in certain stories in your mind.

 

23:55

Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's absolutely true.  And that varies from couple to couple. So I get really curious about what the story is doing for them. Why, you know what that's about.  And absolutely, you're you are hitting on something. One of the methods that I use the most with couples, I mean, I've trained in a number of different methods,  but I use emotionally focused therapy a lot. And so we talk about the cycle, you know, Terry real calls this the more the more. And in the FT, we call it  the cycle.

 

24:24

I think that's  really the core there that you try to see what am I doing that pushes you further into your behavior and what do you do that pushes me further into my behavior? And so then we get people get further and further apart. Yeah. And for a sexual cycle, what that often looks like is that one person is holding all of the initiation energy,  all of the desire. They're the one who's saying, hey, what about tonight? Hey, what about tonight?

 

24:52

Hey, what about tonight? Hey, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with me?  And the other person is saying, ah, I can't, I'm touched  out. I don't have the energy. I don't want to. And that person who is sort of like the gatekeeper  of having sex, they don't have any space to come forward into their own desire  because the other person  is feeling like they're holding all of the energy there. Yeah.

 

25:23

Totally. And I've heard people talk about that where the higher desire partner hasn't even brought it up for months  and  they still feel that energy  of like the other person just knows that they want to.  And  so they don't have that ability to step into  their space of feeling like, do I want? Oh yeah,  absolutely. There's a really big difference  in oh

 

25:52

really truly stepping back to allow your and  helping your partner to find their desire with curiosity  and checking off on your little checklist, how many days have gone by without having sex? Yes.  Energetically, huge difference. And of course your partner is going to pick up on that. Yeah. It's a vibe as the kids say these days. the kids say, it's a vibe. definitely is. Building a private practice can be challenging.

 

26:22

Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment.

 

26:50

Plus when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. Yeah, that's great. I love that distinction because

 

27:17

I think we have to get people into an entirely different mindset, right? Like that's part of the work. Like you, like you were saying, like they could, they might come in with the story that the partner with less desire is a problem. Let's just fix them up and then everything will be fine.  Um, and there's a lot of assumptions just in that story too.  Um, but that, you know, you're sort of reframing the whole situation to help them see that part, part of it is they're both

 

27:46

they both play a part in what's happening.  think that, I think there's a lot of room for  being super understanding and compassionate with each other about each side of that pattern. Yeah, definitely. So I want to tell you a funny thing that happens sometimes when I work with people, but first I want to highlight that  often there's, so we have these cycles, the more, the more the cycle.

 

28:15

we have the emotional cycle where there's in the EFT, we talk about the pursuer and the withdraw. And so, you know, the pursuer might kind of get critical or pursue a conversation and emotional conversation. That person is more likely to say, I really want to be emotionally connected before I feel like I can have sex. And the emotional withdraw is more likely to kind of be quiet.

 

28:42

to step back to avoid conflict.  And it's really common that actually we have sort of like a flip flop cycle where someone is a pursuer outside the bedroom, but a withdraw in the bedroom. Does that make sense?  Absolutely.  Because as I'm thinking about it, like the pursuer withdraw dynamic, I'm like, when it comes to sex, it's actually flipped for a lot of these types of couples. Yeah.

 

29:11

It's actually easier to work with a couple that's flipped because in some ways it's a bit more balanced. You know, that one person is initiating all the emotional conversations and the other person is initiating all the, you know, the sexual initiation.  So they're flip-flopped, they're sort of balanced. What can sometimes happen is that people are sort of  at  a stalemate where they're like, well, my preferred way, if  you would have sex more, I'd be more emotionally available.  Well, if you were more emotionally available, I'd feel like having sex more.

 

29:40

So we get kind of at that impasse. Right. But it's balanced.  But it can also go the other way, where you have someone who is both an emotional pursuer and a sexual pursuer. And then you have someone who's really, really pursuing a lot. And the other person is really, really withdrawing a lot. So they are withdrawing both emotionally outside of the bedroom  and in the bedroom.  And that is not as balanced a dynamic. Yeah. Totally, possible to work with.

 

30:10

but it can feel really hard for both of those people. Yeah, that makes sense. Well,

 

30:20

Yeah, not, not to be  unhopeful, not hopeful for her, for that person, but, but, but that's very hopeful for those couples where, and I,  I hate to say like a traditional dynamic, but where like the pursuer, the emotional pursuer is actually the sexual withdraw and vice versa. Because, because I think, you know, this is a different way of saying what you just said. It's like,

 

30:48

One partner needs  emotional connection before they can feel sexual. Another partner needs sexual connection before they can feel emotional connection.  And it's sort of, think both people end up feeling resentful  or  irritated that they're, or they're waiting. as soon as I get enough emotional connection, then I'll be sexual  or soon as I, my partner has sex with me more often, then I'll  be able to emotionally connect.

 

31:17

I feel like there's a way of shifting that mindset where it can feel a lot more generous. can feel like, like it's sort of like clues of like, well, if I know  what can make my partner, what, what if I just spent the next month just working really hard to make my partner feel emotionally connected and I don't have any expectation for getting something in return for that.  like, that can really be a different way of looking at it. can feel good about doing it instead of resentful.

 

31:46

But again, that's hard. That takes a lot. I mean, for a lot of people, takes a lot of work and therapy to get there. It does. It is hard. And you know, to be honest, I think that both of those, um, viewpoints are pretty limited. And it's been my experience, both of the viewpoints, like I need to be emotionally connected in order to have sex. I, I need to have sex in order to feel emotionally connected. They tend to be pretty gendered. So it's more common that you will see,

 

32:16

a man  saying I really need to  have sex to feel emotionally connected. It's not untrue right like I'm not discounting anybody's experience.  But  what I have found is that we don't have a lot of language  so women may not have a lot of language around  desire  and sexuality it's not something that's  taught or encouraged in the same way.

 

32:44

that boys and men may not always have a lot of language around getting their emotional needs met.  so sexuality is a shortcut into connection. Yes.  But  human beings have the ability to connect in a lot of different ways. Yeah. And so we make a lot of we make a lot of stories up in our mind around sex and its meanings and what we need and what we don't need. But  what really  I try to do is

 

33:13

when  you want to balance it so both people feel like they can get their needs met and they can be connected to their partner both in and out of the bedroom.  So if you have a partner who says, I really need to have sex to be connected, there's no other way for me. Or a partner who says,  I cannot have sex with you unless I feel emotionally connected. It's not that you want it that I'm  doubting either of those perspectives.

 

33:43

But it is limited. Yeah. Well, and if they are entrenched in that belief, they're going to stay stuck. Absolutely. Absolutely. Cause someone has to,  someone has to go first. So to speak.  Yes, exactly. Exactly. Exactly.  So one of the things that I will often do when I work with couples around, around this is I will do what's called sensei focus. I'm sure you're familiar with it. So sensei focus is,

 

34:13

something that was,  you sort of dreamed of the protocol was made by Masters and Johnson way back when, you know, at the birth of sex therapy.  And  it is very highly research  based, there's been a ton of studies about how effective it is.  And basically, what it is, is giving couples  non goal driven, touching homework.  sex therapy is talk therapy.  And

 

34:43

When you do sensate focus with a couple, will give them, you give them a homework assignment. So, okay, the goal is not to have sex.  The goal is to touch each other in a way, notice how it feels. it's sensation focused  touch.  And the goal of that is to reduce anxiety. It's to increase desire. It's to increase communication. oh

 

35:10

And so it's basically just a vehicle to do all of those nice things that we do with like emotional talk therapy in the context of sexuality  and sexuality. Yeah. Maybe I'm just  picking the most difficult situation, but like  what about,  what about if you have people who  don't like touch,  right? Who, where  I mean,

 

35:39

Is it about really trying to  authentically communicate with each other at that point, just sort of like trying different things and just like encouraging them to be really authentic about how it feels for them or something like that? Exactly.  I have not ever worked with  a person who blanket across the board does not like touch.

 

36:06

I have worked with people who, for very, very good reasons,  don't like certain kinds of touch or who don't like touch in a certain situation or who are more open  to touch  when they are feeling  safe or comfortable.  So part of it really is, you know, if you have someone who comes in and says, I don't like touch, I'm going to get really curious about that. What does touch mean to you?

 

36:35

And what don't you like about it?  thing with sex, right? Like if someone comes in and says sex is not pleasurable, okay, well, what is not pleasurable about it? Like, what don't you like about the sex that you're having? Because that gives us a lot of clues about what kind of touch or what kind of sex someone might like to be having.  So for instance, like someone may not like  the way that their partner touches them if they, you know, are using little like feather fingers, and they're like a deep

 

37:05

pressure touch person,  they're not going to like the touch they're getting,  but through those exercises, part of it, like you said, is  the communication of how can I, how can  you sort of  openly explore together what feels good?  Great. So that's a sensei focus, like in a very  sort of nutshell. But  one of the things that I do  often with couples who

 

37:34

have this desire difference is I tell them that they cannot have sex for like a period of time. You know, it's usually like, I find honestly like a minimum of six weeks. Yeah. Often it's longer often I'll be like, how does two or three months sound? Yeah. Right. And what often happens is that the low desire, the high desire partner is like, Oh good. I'm really nervous that we're not going to do anything.

 

38:02

that I'm going to stop doing the thing that I'm doing that keeps us at all connected. And then we're not going to pay attention to this at all. And it's going to be a disaster. that's an, that's often what the high desire partner is worried about. The low desire partner often has this, you know, you can almost see it in the session, but they're like, Oh my God, it's like, just gave me my Christmas present or something like the relief is like really clear. Yeah. Yeah. And then.

 

38:31

craziest thing happens. They will start to come and I can tell and so that I give them the homework that they do the sensei focus. So it's not like  they're not having sex and they're not doing anything. So they're not going to have sex in the you know, and I'm saying like have sex I mean like the way that they typically do.  So you know, couples usually have like a routine that they go through they have like the greatest hits that they go through together. So you know, they're not allowed to have sex in the way that they typically do.

 

38:59

And so  what ends up happening is that if they do the homework, they typically will get to the point where they come in and they like confession time. We cheated. We're so bad. I know you said we weren't supposed to have sex, but we did.  know, and it was great or whatever. So the power of taking the pressure off is like  really huge. Yeah. It's like a strategic intervention.

 

39:29

Um, yeah, exactly. No, think that,  like you said, like even when you give them that suggestion to see the pressure, you know, melt away from that person. I think that's so important, you know, and do you feel like you're, you need to do a lot of coaching with the other person because like you mentioned,

 

39:58

If they're just like counting the days, that's very different than if they can change their mindset about what this means and what's happening. Or even I would say, I would say, I don't know if you agree, like, what are you going to do when you're feeling stressed that this isn't happening? It's like not soothing it by getting something from your partner, but like, what do you do for yourself when you're feeling like that? How do you take responsibility for your own emotions?

 

40:28

and what's coming up for you, because that's yours. It doesn't have anything to do with your partner not having sex with you. Yes. You hit the nail on the head. Absolutely. So the high desire partner has to get a handle on their own entitlement. Yes. Sex is not a human right. That's a great word. Yes. So it truly is entitlement. It really is. And that's a hard word for some people to swallow, but really that's what it comes down to.

 

40:56

because sex is not a human right. Nobody's ever died from lack of sex. It's something that  people want to share together because it's enjoyable and because it's connecting. And if it's not enjoyable and connecting,  then it's entitlement and it's obligation. And that doesn't feel good. Yes. Yeah.  And I feel like it's so, you know, just to take

 

41:24

There's no blame on individual people. think  this comes so much from our culture and the way people are socialized. And I'm really surprised  sometimes that people's  not understanding consent within a married relationship. Yeah. Well, I think that the typical,  the traditional heterosexual relationship  is not one that

 

41:52

people often do a lot of negotiation.  You know that we have these like rules  that are implicit instead of explicit, you know, we're going to have sex. This is a part of the deal. We're going to do this together. We're going to do that together. And so when we really break down that entitlement, that is it's really powerful. And that's not to say that it's wrong to want to be in a relationship where

 

42:21

you're sexual with your partner. Of course, that most people want that. But there is a difference between wanting that and helping to encourage your partner to find their own desire and to take charge of that themselves. Each person is responsible for their own desire. And so  if you're the higher desire partner, you're responsible for that.  That's not your partner's responsibility to take care of for you.

 

42:50

And all of the feelings that come along  with whether or not you're getting your needs met in the relationship, those are also yours to take care of. Yeah. And so, yeah, I do a lot of coaching with that high desire partner. It's really important that there's buy-in because it has to be  supportive. It has to be genuine. So if the high desire partner is just  waiting it out till they get what they want, it doesn't work. It has to really come from a place of buy-in.

 

43:21

that ultimately this is how they get more of what they want, but they need to step back from that place of entitlement. Yeah. Yeah. And I  use the phrase like owning your shit. Totally. Like, let's not, let's assume this isn't an entitlement for you. Let's assume that your partner is a separate human being who has their own needs and wants and desires and you are your own.

 

43:48

human being who has your own needs and wants and desires. And like, you know, let's talk about what happens when your partner doesn't want the same thing as you  and how do you,  again, learn how to cope for yourself and be understanding, compassionate, passionate of what they're going through. I feel like, um, a good analogy is like, let's say like your partner got into a car accident  and you knew that they weren't going to be able to have sex for six months or something like that.

 

44:17

Um, cause of the injuries, get the sense for most people, it would be very easy to under,  to, like, be like, Oh yeah, okay, sure. No problem. We're not have sex for six months. Like you're, you're recovering from your injuries. Like  it's all about how the meaning that you're making up about it how you're making sense of why or why not that's happening. Yeah, that's exactly right.  And for higher desire partners, what happens is that when their partner doesn't want to have sex with them, they feel less desired.

 

44:46

And  they feel  all of these yucky, vulnerable,  deep, dark, you know, emotions that they really probably don't want to acknowledge even themselves come bubbling up.  And it's easier to say, well, if we just had sex, wouldn't have to feel this.  Yeah. But that's not true. That's not authentic. That's not connecting. And so you're absolutely right. It's about owning that shit. Like what comes up for you when you feel like your partner doesn't want to have sex with you? Yeah.

 

45:15

So equally important to this, you know, the counterpart to the high desire partner,  getting a hold of their own entitlement, owning their shit around this, is the lower desire partner doing the same thing. So  in order for that high desire partner to feel like, okay, I can really  trust into this, this is like a leap of faith. These people often have been really waiting.

 

45:42

for a long time. And by the time people come to see me, they've often tried all kinds of stuff. And this high desire partner has been working their butt off trying to figure out a solution. So the low desire partner, the lower desire partner, getting really curious about their own desire, not for their partner, not out of obligation, but really like what do they want? What does unlock their desire? How can they increase their desire?

 

46:12

And that really varies from person to person.  And a lot of times people will, you know, the low desire partner may be so shut down, they may feel like there's something wrong with them. That's not sexy. You know, nobody wants to feel like there's something wrong with them.  So  we can kind of go into that by  usually people have a much easier time saying what they don't want, or what turns them off.

 

46:40

than having access to what turns them on.  So that's great. That's a beautiful place to start from.  But equally, the low desire partner needs to commit to doing the work, to figuring out how they can  authentically show up in a way that works for them, and then communicating that with their partner.

 

47:06

so that there can be a negotiation, there can be a communication there. Yeah. How do you accomplish that without making them feel guilty  as if they should be interested in sex? Yeah. Yeah.  Well, I make really good sense of why they're not. Yeah. So one scenario is that they're not having good sex.  That's just common sense to not want good sex, you know, to want

 

47:35

to want bad sex, who wants bad sex?  So that's one scenario, that they're not having the kind of sex that they want to.  Maybe if it's a female partner,  they're not orgasming regularly, or maybe  there might be all kinds of different reasons why the sex is not pleasurable for them,  related to or unrelated to their partner. So if the sex that they're having is not pleasurable, then it makes sense that they don't want it. And getting really curious with them and encouraging them to get really curious for themselves,

 

48:05

about what is pleasurable for them? What do they like? What would make the sex more worth wanting? So that's one scenario. And then the other scenario is the couple that is having pleasurable sex, but they just don't have it very often. The love and desire partner really struggles to get even into the scenario where they are open to being sexual, even though they know that

 

48:31

when they get there, it's gonna be good and it's gonna be pleasurable to them. And in that case, again, making really good sense  of the reasons what holds them back.  Maybe like,  I'm thinking of a scenario where, if somebody is like absolutely exhausted, like their nervous system is just totally fried by the time they get to after bedtime.  And that's the time that they've carved out to try to have sex.

 

49:00

And they're just like, I mean, I couldn't possibly, they're already shut down. Their nervous system is overloaded. They've got adrenaline, they've got cortisol. They do not have the yummy, like  sexy feelings. They've got the like, don't touch me. I'm gonna doom scroll on my phone till I fall asleep feelings. So, okay, it makes sense. You don't want sex in that situation. So  really like the same way that you would with anybody, whether it's emotional or physical,

 

49:28

making good sense of someone's experience, it makes sense, whatever it is. I guarantee they've got a good reason for it. Yeah. And that brings it back also to  like your book is about great sex after kids,  which we've been talking about like differing levels of desire, which is a huge part of all that. any other  like, I  mean, I'm making assumptions, but

 

49:57

That time after kids is particularly  hard, I think, for a lot of couples. Yeah, it definitely is. I mean, so the book covers everywhere from like free kids, like fertility, conception, pregnancy, all the way through emptiness. So there are periods of time in that time period where there is more struggle for very good reasons. m

 

50:26

And really the heart of the book is this difference in desire, which shows up in all long-term relationships,  but particularly around kids, there's all of these barriers.  And so I think a couple who doesn't have kids who's struggling with this could still  get a lot out of the book, but the research really does say that, you know, having kids staying connected  as a couple and  sexuality is a huge part of that.

 

50:54

is really challenging after kids are in the picture for very, very good reasons.  And I'm glad you said that, you know, it covers up to the time where they're empty nesters. Yeah.  Uh, because  I think that, you know, it's important for people to hear that that's normal to continue having struggles, you know, throughout the, I mean, just having those other human beings that you're taking care of. And even if they're 17 years old, you're still taking care of them.

 

51:23

in a lot of ways. And, you know, it adds a lot to the whole dynamic. Yeah.  Yeah. I mean, listen, the thing is, is that this is, you know, whether you have a newborn or whether you've got a 17 year old, like these lessons of having to continually find ways to come back to each other  again and again, and renew the connection and rekindle the connection  over and over and over again. It's just the way that

 

51:53

Puppets who are successful at this,  they build in ways to do it.  But it takes effort, it takes time.  And certainly somebody who's got a newborn,  who's dealing with tons of hormonal changes  and  the baby is up at all hours of the day, they may actually be able to say to each other, hey, it makes sense that we're not having sex right now. It makes sense that this isn't a big part of our relationship. That actually doesn't cause as much tension  as somebody who's got

 

52:20

middle schoolers who's like, I mean, the kids are gone. What's going on? Like they don't need us as much. Why are we still not having sex?  And so it really is about coming back, getting curious, being open, finding ways to reconnect both emotionally and physically  again and again and again.  Yeah, that's great. That's such a good point.

 

52:44

um Any other, I know we're getting close to the end here, any other final thoughts  or ways that people can  find you? I mean, obviously they should go get the book. If you could mention the title again and like, do you have a website and things like that people could go to? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so the title of the book is Parents in Love, a guide to great sex after kids.  And my website is just my name, rebeccayouti.com. um I have a private practice.

 

53:14

in the state of Massachusetts,  but there's lots of different ways that people can connect with me and work with me. I'm always  happy to talk to people.  this conversation is like really opening my eyes to a lot of things and it just makes me want to learn more. It makes me want to get your book because I feel like this is so helpful. So thank you so much.  I really appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely.

 

53:41

Absolutely. I think it is important. know, in the book, we didn't talk about it a whole lot today,  but in the book, there's a lot of practical strategies. So like a lot of around nervous system regulation and all that kind of stuff about how you actually do this,  because you and I talked a lot about the problems and  what they are, which is a great place to start. But people need support actually doing this. Yeah, that's great. That's great. People love having the like

 

54:10

things they can practice like that, you know? Definitely. Yeah, definitely. Good. Well, thank you again. And hopefully we can catch up again at some point in the future. Yeah, that sounds great. Well, thank you so much for having me. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks.  Visit helloalma.com  or click on the link in the show notes to learn more.

 

54:39

Thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy.  I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody!