263: Communication in Couples Therapy with Shane Birkel

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this solo episode, Shane talks communication in couples therapy. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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• Show Notes
• The Couples Therapist Couch Summary
• Transcript

The Couples Therapist Couch 263: Communication in Couples Therapy with Shane Birkel

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

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In this solo episode, Shane talks communication in couples therapy. Hear how to help your clients get back to basics with communication, the correct ways to be a speaker and listener, why communication often breaks down for couples, why we naturally get defensive, and the importance of getting consent from your partner. Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• The importance of consent in communication
• Why communication breaks down in relationships
• Learning each partner's authentic reality
• Moving beyond right vs wrong arguments
• How to empower both partners

Show Notes

• 263: Communication in Couples Therapy with Shane Birkel
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [0:15] Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch 
• [1:00] Why communication breaks down in relationships
• [3:22] The fundamental problem: One speaker and one listener
• [5:07] The role of the listener in creating space
• [7:27] How validation helps your partner feel heard
• [9:09] Learning your partner's authentic reality
• [11:20] Both people have the right to feel heard
• [13:14] The speaker's commitment to nonviolence
• [15:08] Owning your reality vs. blaming your partner
• [16:05] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [17:30] The importance of consent in communication
• [20:34] Moving beyond right vs. wrong arguments
• [23:02] Key listening skills: Mirroring, validation, curiosity, and accountability
• [26:26] Making requests and problem-solving together
• [30:15] The storage room analogy: Setting aside your "totes"
• [32:09] Empowering both partners to have a voice
• [33:36] Being considerate of your partner's experience
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00

If that partner walks in and starts venting and their partner's not in a space to listen, they might start making up all kinds of stuff in their mind about why their partner isn't listening to them.

 

00:15

to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now,  your host,  Shane Birkel.

 

00:31

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Couples Therapist's Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy.  Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

01:00

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. This week, I want to get into the topic of communication. A lot of times when  couples come in to couples therapy, the first thing they say is, can't communicate. Our communication is breaking down. We can't get through to each other. And it may seem like a simple or

 

01:29

or basic thing, but I think it's  really, really important. And I think it's sometimes it's just good to get back to basics. So I'm going to get into that, but I think there are lot deeper reasons why people struggle with communication. I mean, I think when you think about communication, you might think, well, it seems pretty  straightforward. It seems pretty simple and straightforward, but it's actually very complicated. And there's actually a lot of things happening when we're trying to communicate with other people.

 

02:00

I mean, there's the  verbal things, the words that we're saying. There's the  tone.  There's the nonverbal communication that's happening.  And when we're talking about relationships, it can be some very  triggering information that's being conveyed. And the other thing that happens is as someone is trying to communicate,

 

02:27

a concept to another person, there's all kinds of meaning making that's coming up. I know  many of you can probably relate to  text message interchanges. I see this in my couples therapy all the time where people get really  confused about what's happening in a text message  interchange because

 

02:53

You can't read the facial expression. can't read the tone. You're not sure. Are they being sarcastic? Are they being serious? Are they being rude?  There's actually some really funny videos out there on social media where people make the wrong assumptions about what's being texted. But this is a very real thing that happens. And it's just another example of where the communication breaks down. And oftentimes, what I see is that both couples have really good intentions.  And em

 

03:22

but they're sort of  making the wrong assumptions about what the other person's intentions really are. So to get back  to basics, when we're talking about communication, there is one speaker and one listener. And this is a fundamental problem slash solution if you can  make it work because a lot of times

 

03:50

What will happen is one partner will say,  know, I'm  unhappy. I'm upset at you. I feel hurt because  you aren't being very considerate. You know, you didn't ask me how my day was. And the other partner will say, well,  when I came in, I started making dinner and

 

04:14

I thought that would help you have a better day. didn't realize I didn't even have a chance to ask you how you... And so what's happening already, as I'm sort of saying this example, is that there are two speakers and no one's really listening.

 

04:31

The first person speaks,  has a voice  about something that they're feeling and something that's happening to them. The second person takes that  and begins to have a voice about explaining what was happening for them. Now, I'll just say it right away.  What would be really helpful after the first person has a voice about their experience,

 

05:00

is for the second person to ease into becoming the listener.

 

05:07

And there's something that's very,  I mean, that's a role that has specific traits. You know, when, when you, you can't just say, well, I'm the listener and then do whatever you want. There are rules that you have to follow. Let's say  if you want to be a good listener and being the listener is much more difficult than being the speaker. Being the listener is often a generous gift. It's the ability to make the other person feel seen and heard and understood.

 

05:37

It's the ability  to create space. And now I'm already getting a little bit into  like a deeper emotional level. Like on a deeper emotional level, the communication is really about each person feeling like they have space in the world and space in their relationship. And a lot of times when people start losing their voice,

 

06:02

they start feeling a sense of resentment about their life or resentment about their relationship. They start feeling  like oftentimes it starts feeling like a power struggle. Like if  I,  uh, if I'm  get my way, then my partner, you know, it's like a  or lose. Like if I win, my partner loses. If my partner wins, I lose. Uh, or m

 

06:28

If I get what  I want, my partner doesn't get what they want. So it becomes like this power struggle.  And we have to,  in a healthy relationship, we have to  help people make space for both human beings to exist in the world, both people's perspectives to be relevant, both people to have space to feel like there's room for them.

 

06:57

So to get back to  the example, uh one speaker and one listener. When I'm the listener, I'm the one who's creating space for the other person to have their perspective and their voice about what's going on for them. I don't have to agree with them. It doesn't have to make sense to me. It's simply  an activity to make sure they feel seen and heard and understood, to make sure that  I...

 

07:27

give them validation for what they are thinking and feeling in the world. So if partner A says,  I'm really hurt because you didn't ask me how  I'm doing today, I have to remind myself that this isn't about me. This isn't about my reality. mean, in some ways, sometimes it's helpful to say it's about me because then I can be accountable. Like if I forgot to feed the dog this morning,

 

07:57

and my partner's upset about that, I can be accountable. can say, yeah, you're right, I'm so sorry I forgot to feed the dog. That's helpful. So it is naming that it's about me. It's about something that I did.  But what's more important is that it's about my partner's feelings.  what happens is if my partner says, I'm hurt because you didn't ask me how I was doing, if I start going into defensiveness or protectiveness and saying, well,

 

08:27

I was busy making dinner  for the family. I thought that would make you happy. What I'm doing  is I'm making it about my reality. I'm taking  the air out of my partner's voice and I'm making it about protecting myself. And this is gonna make my partner feel invalidated. It's gonna make them feel like I don't care how they're feeling. It's gonna make them feel like I'm not even willing to learn.

 

08:55

something about the way they tick. And that's what this is, one of the things this is really helpful for is like when my partner's giving me feedback.

 

09:09

I  have the ability to learn more about their authentic reality. So this is something that's really important to my partner. Maybe tomorrow I can remember to ask them how they're doing. This is going to really help improve their relationship.  And what happens is, sometimes what happens is both partners become overly careful or polite and neither one is really having a voice about what they really want because they're trying to keep the peace.

 

09:39

And there's a lack of intimacy. There's a lack of knowing. There's a lack of a flow of information between the two of them. And they don't really know the other person's authentic reality. This is really bad for a relationship. So they have good intentions because they don't want to argue. They don't want to get upset at each other. They want to keep the peace. But all of sudden, they're both making a lot of assumptions.

 

10:09

about what the other person needs and wants. And they're not really having a voice, each of them, about what they really need and want. So this creates a lot of feelings of disconnection for people  in their relationships. ah I mean, the other way the communication breaks down is what you might imagine more commonly, which is just like arguing back and forth.

 

10:37

And I would say when this happens, there's two speakers and no listeners. Both people are going into,  start going into feeling a sense of defensiveness or protection about their reality. And they're feeling like if I, well, there are a few different things they might be going on in their head, but  they're protecting themselves.

 

11:01

And sometimes, again, there's good intentions. Sometimes they're trying to explain, they don't want their partner to feel hurt. They want to explain, they're trying to explain it away. They're trying to fix it, but this isn't helpful.

 

11:16

Sometimes I tell people

 

11:20

Both people have the right to feel heard in a relationship, but you just have to take turns being the speaker. You can't do it at the same time. So let's talk about when you set this up, there's one speaker and one listener,  and let's talk about the rules for  each of them. As I said before, it's much harder to be the listener, and it  probably requires you to be sort of in your functional adult brain.

 

11:47

So if you're triggered, if you're activated, if you're emotionally heightened, it's gonna be very hard to be a good listener. And sometimes that's when it's better just to take some space to cool off before you come back to the conversation. But if you're in a place where you, you know, if the speaker is activated, in some ways that's okay,  because they're the ones,  you know, the listener is at the service of the speaker. So the goal would be how do I make

 

12:15

the speaker feel heard and seen and understood so that they can sort of feel more grounded  and feel calm and uh feel more secure in their relationship because I'm creating space for them. So  nonetheless, if you are the speaker,  no matter how activated you are, you are still responsible for what you are saying. don't have, people don't have the right

 

12:45

to  say whatever they want or vent or unload or unleash or attack the other person just because they're activated.  So the speaker has to take responsibility for what they're saying and how they're saying it.  I always talk to people about making a commitment to nonviolence. That's easy for most people in the  physical sense, like I'm not going to physically harm another human being.

 

13:14

It's much harder for some people in an emotional or a psychological sense. I want to make a commitment to nonviolence with other people emotionally and psychologically, meaning I don't have the right to say things that are hurtful to other people. Now, sometimes I might  do that and I don't even realize it.  I mean, everybody makes mistakes, but if my partner says, hey, that was hurtful, it's my job to listen and

 

13:43

to  take that feedback and to apologize, to own my, to  take accountability and own what I did. So as a speaker,  but as a speaker, I wanna go into it really owning my reality. uh Speaking from the first person, this is my perspective, this is how I'm feeling, this is what's coming up for me. This didn't feel good for me, this feels hurtful for me or.

 

14:12

This is what would be more helpful for me. So you're talking about your reality. You want to really work hard to avoid blame or judgment or criticism or pointing the finger at the other person. Here's what you did wrong.  You want to avoid absolute statements like this is what  always happens, right?  Or you never blah, blah, blah, fill in the blank. You want to speak from the first person.

 

14:40

This is hard for me and you can't, you gotta make sure you don't break the rule by, uh, it's not a first person statement. If you say,  feel like you are a jerk that  that's not your feeling. That's,  um,  just you calling them a jerk and trying to dress it up with words. So  you really have to be careful about this,  you know, and one thing

 

15:08

that's really helpful if you're having a hard time is saying something like, what I'm making up about this in my mind  is that you don't care about how I feel. So I'm saying, I'm making a use statement, but I'm owning the fact that I'm making that up in my mind  or the story I tell myself, the meaning, the meaning I'm making up in my mind, you know, so that, kind of stuff is really helpful. Look, a lot of times

 

15:36

That's what we're doing.  My partner could be five minutes late and I'm building up all this stuff in my mind about why that is and how they don't care about me and how I'm never a priority. And that's just me stirring myself up. And I have the right to those thoughts and feelings.  That could be my authentic thoughts and feelings, but I don't have the right to blame my partner for something that may not even be true.

 

16:05

that I'm just sort of making up in my own head. Building a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers.

 

16:32

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17:01

The speaker really has to decide, what kind of listener am I looking for? Am I looking to just vent? And venting is much easier if it's about someone else, not the person you're talking to.  If you had a situation with a coworker  and you might come home, and here's another idea, here's another important concept.

 

17:30

is that it's really important to get consent from your partner. The idea of consent is so important in so many ways. I should do a whole episode on consent.  It's something I've been thinking about a lot. But  you wanna make sure that you don't just walk in the door and start venting on your partner. They may or may not be in a head space to be able to receive that. So you wanna make sure and say, hey, honey,

 

17:57

Is this a good time for me to vent for 10 minutes  and uh make sure that you have that consent from them? So then they'll be in a mindset to give you more of what you need.

 

18:11

We want to try to create these win-win situations, right? What happens is like I might or someone might walk in and start venting and their partner, you know Just got off a really important call or something and just isn't in a mind in a headspace to be able to listen and The person who's trying to vent will feel frustrated and say well My partner doesn't care about how I feel. I might as well not ever bring anything up

 

18:41

and they start shutting down. ah But it's a misunderstanding, right? If they just had that better communication, if they were just able to say, hey, is this a good time for you, right? Their partner could say, you know what, actually I just got off a really serious call. I need to go write an email to someone and I'll come right back, right?  In 20 minutes,  I'll come back and I'll be able to listen to what's going on for you.

 

19:09

And then both people feel good about it, right? The partner has the ability to finish what they're doing  and the other partner has the  ability to feel heard 20 minutes later. So we want to create those types of win-win situations. We want to make sure we understand what's happening in the midst of these interactions. Again, if that partner walks in and starts venting and their partner's not in a space to listen,

 

19:36

they might start making up all kinds of stuff in their mind about why their partner isn't listening to them. And this is what our brains do. And so the communication that's required is really about here's what's happening in my mind. Here's my perspective. Here's what's going on for me. Here's what I'm making up about what's happening in this situation. So that

 

20:04

It doesn't have to be about figuring out who's the bad guy or  figuring out who's right or wrong. Those tend to be really useless conversations, really unhelpful conversations. If you're focusing on who's right or wrong,  you're probably not gonna get anywhere  in the conversation. Both people are gonna dig in their trenches  and double down on their position and just keep feeling like it's an argument or a power struggle.

 

20:34

So this is why partner A has the right to their perspective and their reality. Partner B has the right to their perspective and their reality. And there is no argument. There's only uh a decision about who's the speaker first and who's the listener first. Because when one partner comes in  and says, you be the listener? Is this a good time for you to be the listener?

 

21:04

The person who's listening doesn't have to agree with what they're saying.

 

21:10

Right? If my partner comes in and says, I want to vent about my coworker and they start venting, I might have all kinds of thoughts going on in my head about how my partner's not being fair. Like maybe their coworker has valid reasons for what they're doing. Maybe I have ideas like, well, have you tried this? None of that is

 

21:36

Unless my partner's looking for a problem-solving conversation that would be different than a venting conversation And usually what happens is it's what step one and then step two First step one is how do I make the other person feel seen and heard and understood step two?  Like if there is a decision to be made and there's there is there's not always but like let's say my partner is upset because

 

22:05

Let's say they want to go on vacation to California  and I want to go on vacation to Florida, right? So we're having this conversation. uh If my partner is talking about all the reasons why California is great,  we're doing the not very good, like we don't know who the speaker or the listener is, we're not communicating super well, then

 

22:33

I might just start going into all the reasons why Florida's great,  and it starts feeling like an argument almost, like they're advocating for California, I'm advocating for Florida, we're going back and forth,  and we're not feeling like we're getting anywhere. We have to take a step back and say who's a speaker and who's a listener, right? If my partner is the speaker, they get a chance to talk about  why they want to go to California, and my job is just to make them feel

 

23:02

seen and heard and understood. as a listener,  some of the really important skills that are necessary to do that is mirroring, validation, accountability, and curiosity. Okay, so I'll go through that. Mirroring is just simply what I hear you saying  is that you think that California has the best peaches. Great, I'm listening.  I don't agree.

 

23:31

But I'm not going to say that in the communication and that's it going on in my mind. I might be thinking to myself, you know, there's a lot better beaches in Florida, but my job as a listener is to say, okay, what I hear you saying is you think the best beaches are in California. Great. And then  I can move into curiosity and say, tell me more about what you like about California. Tell me more about why this is the right trip. You know,

 

23:59

And they can share, they found really cheap plane tickets to get there. It's going to take less time, let's say to travel there. All these reasons. And I can be thinking to myself, well, that's not true. Well, that's not true. Well, that's not true. Well, I have others, you know, other information, blah, But that's not the time for it, right? My job, again, step  one is just staying in that role as a listener and making it about making space for their reality, their perspective.

 

24:28

what they want, what they think is important. Right? So I'm mirroring, I'm moving into curiosity, asking questions, making sure they feel understood. ah I'm validating, right? Validating is different than mirror. Mirroring is what I hear you saying is  you think California has the best beaches. Validating is, it makes sense that you feel that way.

 

24:58

Right, so  I mean a more difficult  one would be if it's about the partner, right? If my wife said, I'm really upset that you  didn't ask me how I was doing today.  Then the mirroring would be what I hear you saying is you're really upset that I didn't ask you how you're doing. Validation would be it makes a lot of sense that you feel that way. I told you I would check in.

 

25:27

and I forgot, I got so busy, I'm really sorry.  It makes sense that you feel upset about that. That's the validation. And then the accountability ah is, you know, I made a mistake. I messed up.  We had an agreement that I was gonna ask how you were doing,  and I didn't do it. Right, so I'm owning up to my mistake. So those are some of the key things.

 

25:56

uh the key  moves as a listener, mirroring, validation, curiosity, accountability.  And then I'll go back to the speaker. I'm not sure if I totally finished that, but like you really want to own your reality, speak from the first person, avoid the blame, judgment, criticism. Oh yeah, so I remember the last thing I was going to say about being a uh speaker is also there could be a request.

 

26:26

You have to decide, am I just speaking to be hurt? Do I just wanna vent? Do I wanna problem solve? Is my goal just to feel hurt and seen and understood by my partner?  Or is there also a request that goes along with that?  So  let's say that...

 

26:56

someone, let's say partner A is out of town. They told partner B, I'll call you every night before I go to bed to say good night.  And let's say they forget it's the next day. Partner B is really upset and sad because partner A didn't call and say good night. So partner B calls partner A and says, Hey, I'm really upset that you didn't call last night and say good night.

 

27:26

you have a few minutes to talk about this. Then partner A could say, right now uh is a good time. I can talk about that. So partner B could say, what happened for me, what happened is we had an agreement that you were going to call and say good night  and it didn't happen. So what I made up in my mind is, you know, you're too busy for me. I'm not a priority. You

 

27:54

don't even care whether you talk to me or not. This is what I'm making up in my head. And it made me feel really sad. It made me feel really nervous. I wasn't sure if you were okay or not. Made me feel, and also I was kind of angry. I kind of angry at you that we had this agreement and you didn't follow through on it.  And um so as a listener, you know, I'm going to mirror back what they're saying. I hear what you're saying.

 

28:22

I'm not going to go through all, you know, you should probably slow it down so that the listener has a chance to sort of respond as you're going through it. And the listener is going to make sure that the other person feels understood. Now, at the end of all that, there could be a request, like, well, it could, it could be just about feeling heard and, and there's an apology and the accountability. And then the

 

28:51

The speaker says, thank you so much for listening. I feel a lot better.  Or there could be a request where they say, thank you so much for listening. Now I'd really appreciate if you called me twice today. know, once at lunchtime, once before you go to bed, is that possible for you? Right? And the other partner doesn't have to do the thing. They don't have to agree to whatever.

 

29:16

The request is obviously it's great if they can and it's really nice if they can, but uh there could be some negotiation or compromise back and forth about the requests. But sometimes people just need to feel heard. Sometimes they actually need to come to a decision like where we're going to go on vacation. Sometimes they, you you might make a request so your partner can decide, does that work for them or not? So

 

29:47

This is what's really important in the communication. Again, when it's not working, you want to ask yourself, are we going into protection of  ourself? Or how am I making this about me when I should be making it about my partner?  Sometimes I use this analogy. A lot of people have rooms in their house for storage. It could be in the attic.

 

30:15

or it could be like a corner of the basement or something where, you know, you have all these totes. Uh, we have this in our house in the basement and you know, there's a couple totes with Christmas stuff. There's, you know, Halloween stuff. There's like summer camping stuff. Like there's, there's just like stuff that we have in storage that we don't need a lot of the time. A lot of times it's stuff we still need to go through.

 

30:44

Stuff from our childhood, like stuff. So there's all these totes, and this is how I would look at it.  As you're living your life with your partner, there's probably all these totes in the back of your mind. And so as my partner is talking about whatever's going on for them, all of my resentment might start coming up, and I'll start pulling down totes in the back of my mind. Well, what about when they did this? What about when they did this? Oh, now they're mad at me because I did this?

 

31:13

You know, and what I would say is can you set aside all of your totes, right? Can you imagine putting all of your totes away in the storage room just so can focus on listening to your partner? Now, they're still there and you still have the right to talk about them, but you have to be responsible as a speaker if you want to do that.  You and your partner can't do it at the same time because then it's going to feel like there's two speakers and no one's listening.

 

31:42

So how do I set aside all of my stuff to be a listener and to make it about my partner's experience? It's a very generous gift if you can do that to  give to them. But you also have to make sure that you have a voice about what you need and want.  the timing of that is very important. So I hope this was helpful.

 

32:09

If you're a therapist working with couples, know, make sure that you, know, oftentimes in relationships, there's a dynamic where one person has way more of a voice than the other person.  And we really have to empower the person who doesn't have as much of a voice about what's going on. And we have to teach the other partner how to be a good listener. Uh, you know, sometimes there's couples where both people are super polite and no one's really having a voice and

 

32:37

And that leads to disconnection. So, you know,  when we're working with people, there's all kinds of ways this could play out. Uh, but I think it comes back to  both people need to have a voice and be a speaker at times. Both people need to have space for their reality as the speaker. And it's not just about, you know, being able to talk. It's about like feeling like you deserve to take up space in the world.

 

33:06

Like your perspective deserves space in the world. Like that's a really important psychological feeling. And also both people need to learn how to be a good listener. Both people need to learn that for a relationship to feel healthy and to really work well, I have to make sure at least once in a while I'm making my partner feel heard and seen and understood and really tuned into. Like I have to attune to what's going on for them and be

 

33:36

I'm sharing my life with this person. I have to be very considerate of what's going on for them and how things feel for them.  I hope this was helpful for all of you and I hope all of you have a great week. This is Shane Birkel and I'll see you next time. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks.

 

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visit HelloAlma.com  or click on the link in the show notes to learn more.  And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody!