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262: Helping Couples during Their Transition to Parenthood with Kelly Bourque

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Kelly Bourque about helping couples during their transition to parenthood. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 262: Helping Couples during Their Transition to Parenthood with Kelly Bourque

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

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In this episode, Shane talks with Kelly Bourque about helping couples during their transition to parenthood. Kelly is an Emotionally Focused Therapy Supervisor (EFT) & Relational Health Advocate. Hear what you should talk about with couples before they have a baby, the need for pre-baby counseling, what happens when couples put their entire focus on the baby, how to help couples navigate the immense stress of having a baby, and the importance of parents being a team. Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

    • What makes a healthy couple?
    • How important is it to assess your relationship?
    • What's the benefit of pre-baby counseling?
    • How does becoming a new parent impact your mental health?
    • Why is it helpful to be vulnerable with your partner?

To learn more about Kelly Bourque, visit:

RedTherapyGroup.com

Show Notes

 

 

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
I think about, when you're having the conversation, start with the focus on you inside.

00:12
to the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Birkel.

00:28
Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

00:58
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone, welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and today I'm speaking with Kelly Bourque, emotionally focused supervisor and relational health advocate. Hey Kelly, welcome to the show. Hey Shane, it's good to be here. Yeah, thank you so much for coming on. I'm really excited to talk about...

01:26
the perinatal time for relationships and when people are getting ready to have children and when they just have children. But before we get into all that, why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about yourself? Yeah, happy to. So I am an EFT therapist and I first got it. Well, I've really been doing EFT, I would say the majority of my career, which is around 20 years.

01:53
I was attracted to EFT because I fell in love with attachment theory. And so for me, doing couples work is less about a passion. I hate to say this to all my couples out there is less about a passion for couples, but more so a passion for bonding science. And so at the time when I was trained in EFT, the modality

02:20
was most known for couples work. Now we know that it can be applied to individuals and families, but back then it was just, if you were gonna do EFT, you were essentially going to do couples work. And so I started that, fell in love with it, haven't looked back. I now have a group practice in Music City, Nashville, and there's a whole team of us. That's about 12 therapists now, and this is sort of all we do. So we're...

02:49
nerding out every day about EFT and couples, individuals, families, you know, how can we do this better? What um are we struggling with? And as you know, couples work specifically is maybe one of the most difficult contexts to work in. I think there's a lot of therapists who would say, oh gosh, I'm.

03:16
I'll never do couples work, right? It's just so hard. They're just arguing constantly in your room and why would anybody do that? But you and I know that there's also great potential for a whole family system to change if the foundation of the system, which is that partner, that romantic partnership is solid. And so that's really what

03:45
keeps me going and what excites me. And I guess that takes us to why perinatal stage. feel like, you know, part of what you're talking about is almost, you know, the same things that we need in our relationships that make for a healthy couple are the same things that make for a fulfilling life in a lot of ways. You know, when you said, when you said, and I'm interested to know what you mean.

04:15
Forgive me for saying it wrong, but you said something like your interest isn't so much in couples, but in bonding science. It's almost like how does each person learn more about themselves in the context of being in a relationship with others? Right, right. Yeah, I'm really glad you're bringing that up. This is like my driving passion. Once I learned about, and I call it bonding science because it's not really attachment. It's not a theory anymore. We know.

04:43
We have plenty of research that proves that we're bonding mammals. So we know that we are hardwired to emotionally rely on one or two safe others, right? Interdependence. And that's why I like to think of myself as a relational health advocate because so often in conversations with people, we're very focused on the individual.

05:15
And what can you do to change? What can you do to make yourself better or even change your relationship? What can you do to change your relationship? And I think if we're so singularly focused like that, then first of all, that's not accurate to science. can't, you know, we, maybe we can adjust our expectations or make some changes, but

05:45
It is a system. so within whatever system we're talking about, whether we're talking about a couple or a family or even larger systems, all kinds of things are working off of each other and playing together. And so the health of that entire system is what really makes lasting change. Does that make sense? So

06:11
I really want to change the conversation whenever people are talking about the individual and I want to ask questions about, what is happening in that system? How can we intervene on a systemic level? So even when working with an individual, asking questions about the characters in their lives, the interactions.

06:38
the relational health and kind of seeing relationships as resources. Does that make sense? So even if it's a positive relationship or one that there's no like glaring issues, do you see it as a resource though? Are you actually vulnerable? Are you actually reaching out? Are you actually utilizing this as

07:07
a safe haven secure base. And so is this a good time to talk about the perinatal? definitely. Yeah, let's let's transition into that. I was just going to say really quick, you know, I, it makes a lot of sense. Like if somebody comes in and says, you know, I have depression or something, you know, I feel depressed or whatever, you know, you know, there's only so much we can do just talking to that individual person. Right, you know, so much of what's going on is

07:35
It has to do with the context of what their environment that they're living in. uh And even if they're not in a relationship, it has to do with the relationships they've experienced throughout their life. has to do with how they make meaning of the world. It has to do with what's going on. There's so much that is relational about that's... If we don't consider all of that, I don't think that we can provide as much growth or healing for people. And that's part of what I hear you...

08:04
hear you saying, you know, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. Those relational even assessment questions are really important. So we're looking beyond symptoms or behaviors. looking at, you know, your, your view of yourself in the context of relationships, um, your view of others, your view of relationships and those experiences that make up those views. Right.

08:34
So yes, that's past, present, and how you think about the future. Yeah, absolutely. yeah, so let's talk about that. Because that perinatal time is such a huge time where there's so many relational dynamics going on and so many changes happening. And I'm so excited to talk more with you about this. Yeah, thank you. I am like obsessed with this.

08:59
reading research about it. I'm involved in a project through Sue Johnson's Institute. I'm, you know, talking to all kinds of sort of adjacent, like therapy adjacent, like doula groups, and just people in the perinatal world. But so perinatal, when I say that perinatal or prenatal, we're talking about pregnancy to two years after birth. It's actually a pretty long span of time.

09:30
And in that span, that's the transition from being a couple to a family. research says, unfortunately, that there is 75 to 80 % relationship dissatisfaction or drop during that span. And so that's a pretty significant number. And it's the largest across the lifespan.

09:59
So what I see as an opportunity, you know how we have, and this is very kind of normal, top of mind, pre-marital counseling, right? Well, I think when people go to pre-marital counseling, it's not, I think the timing, I think it's great, it's good, but as far as actual impact, preventative care, I don't know if it's the right or best timing. If you look at,

10:28
this after you've been together, maybe you already have, you you've had a few fights, right? Like you've had some stuff that um you can sort of see, oh, this is where we get stuck, or this is what really matters to me, or when the rubber hits the road, like this is how I protect myself. Like you have much more sort of data in this phase than you did in pre-marital.

10:57
But you don't have a really rigid cycle. So you're usually not in so much distress that it's really difficult to do preventative work. I think it's the sweet spot. It's like, this is a time that we are sort of missing out on as an industry or overlooking. if couples could do pre-baby counseling, right?

11:27
Yeah. And sort of shore up that bond. And I'm not talking about, there's not necessarily a problem in your relationship. You know, maybe there are some things you want to work on, but it's just an opportunity to really shore up your bond so that your foundation is solid. Because once baby comes, what happens? Necessarily all eyes and attention and energy are on that baby.

11:56
You do not have the bandwidth to do couples work. You know, it's like we're tired. We're, you know, just trying to survive. We're really, you know, we care about how a baby is doing that kind of thing. And so it's. You know, it's that right before. So it really is preventative care, but it's a bit of a tough sell because there's not a huge pain point. That makes sense. No, I like what you're saying, because.

12:26
You know, like you said, I think there's a lot of emphasis or there has been historically on sort of premarital counseling, right? Let's make sure. And that's good. And that's that's probably a good thing ah to make sure that people navigate certain conversations they not they might not be thinking about before they take their commitment to another level. And then there's the time when most couples show up at our office, which is when

12:54
I don't know what the research says, maybe something like three years too late, right? When they've been struggling for way too long, when they're really stuck in their dynamic, usually it's that their kids are a little bit older in their life or the kids are leaving the house, that's a common time. I hear you saying, and I think it's so true, why aren't we putting more emphasis on this timeframe?

13:20
you know, right before having children, right before all of these huge changes are about to take place, there's a huge opportunity. You know, the couple probably has experienced some significant disagreements or, um you know, patterns and there's so much more to learn possibly going into having the children. Yeah, yeah. And what, as you were talking, I was thinking, it really pains me that

13:47
Couples therapy still has quite a stigma to it, I think. People usually think of couples work as you go when it's bad. I think with individual therapy, I'm really happy to see that the stigma is actually really changing, especially post pandemic. really think that it's kind of, people would agree. Yeah, it's good to have a therapist. It's good to work on yourself. It's really...

14:16
It doesn't mean that you're broken or, you know, anything super negative. It's just like, this is a good idea. I don't think that has quite translated to couples work. And so it just, it does. I wish I could sort of just convince the entire world, like, listen, we can think of couples work in the same way.

14:42
that we think of individual work and maybe in the same way that we think of premarital work, right? That this is just a good thing to do. It's good to invest in your relationship and to see it not just as an investment in that relationship, but for your entire family, truly. Right. Yeah, if people aren't motivated for themselves, oftentimes they can be motivated for their children and for their family as a whole.

15:11
So what are some of these considerations as people are entering into becoming pregnant, becoming parents as they transition? Yeah. One thing that comes to mind as you say that, and keep in mind, I'm going to talk about that specific, like imagine a pregnant couple or a couple that just had a baby, right? Like keep them sort of in your mind. And I'm going to talk about some of

15:42
their realities, what they're talking about, kind of what they need help with. But as you imagine that, I want you to also think about how this is true for any time. Does that make sense? So any major transition in life, we're going to be a little bit more vulnerable. And so it's just a good opportunity before

16:11
for that transition to preventatively have some kind of intentional work. It doesn't even have to be therapy, but some kind of going through a book together or some kind of like intentional work. But these couples, they are, let's say kind of anticipating new parents or they actually are new parents. There was this word, words actually that I love.

16:40
called matressens and patressens. So think adolescence, but matressens for maternal and patressens for paternal. So this word is the experience of what it's like to be a parent for the first time. know, so you've got this baby and it's obviously their first time and they're

17:09
making these milestones, exploring the world, everybody's celebrating it. It's so, so exciting. But as a parent, it's also your first time, right? This is your first time. I can remember, Shane, my first time. I have three kids and my oldest daughter when she was crying at night and I didn't know why and I couldn't soothe her.

17:38
I did everything. I changed her diaper. I nursed her. I burped her. you know, I can't like everything, right? You go down the list. It's kind of like process of elimination. And, and for whatever reason, she did eventually soothe and go back to sleep, but I never knew why. And it bugged me. It was so upsetting that I didn't know.

18:07
why? And it was, I was talking to a friend who was just like a little step ahead of me. She had kids a little older than me and I was telling her this story and she said, and you'll never know. And I was like, what? Is this a thing? You can be a parent and not know what's going on or why something's wrong and things get better and you don't know why or things are bad and you don't know why you don't know what to do. Like, is this okay?

18:38
And it was this huge shift for me as a parent. Those are the kinds of, that's like a, um it's a very humbling, but important lesson to learn, right? We don't have complete control over our children and their development and their happiness and all of these things. Like we care so much and our hearts are like living outside of us. And yet.

19:08
were a bit, it's like a little bit of a crap shoot. It's like you do your best, but it's like, oh I hope they're okay. And it matters so much. These are the kinds of conversations that you can be having with your partner. Hey, this happened and it was sort of earth shattering for me. And it makes me feel a bit insecure. Like it matters so much that I'm doing this right.

19:36
You know, and to have your partner say, honey, oh my gosh, I'm watching you. I'm here living this with you. And I see that you're amazing. And I think maybe it's okay that we don't have all the answers. I'm right here. Like that kind of secure base safe haven, somebody who's actually in it with you. Right? Like that's the kind of support and soothing of our nervous system.

20:06
that we need in order to be able to offer that to our babies who eventually become kids and teenagers and adults. Yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah, and a lot of times, it comes from good intentions, right? In the in the example that you're describing, I can imagine a parent who just like if they don't have that partner or even a friend or therapist to sort of like help them feel grounded and secure and like

20:36
this is normal and it's okay. If they don't have that, they might have a lot of anxiety and continue to worry and continue. Their anxiety eventually might have an impact on the child because again, they have good intentions. They're just trying to figure out what's wrong with my child. But it's so important that we find ways to regulate our nervous system with our children.

21:00
That's right. And you're bringing up a good point. You know, there is also research that supports there's a correlation between relational health and postpartum depression and or mood disorders. And so this actually is a public health issue. I'm not saying causation, but if someone is prone to postpartum depression and has a

21:29
a secure relationship as a resource, it's going to decrease the symptoms. And the opposite of that is true as well. So all the more reason and that, you know, in fact, that affects infant mental health. So these are, you know, these are really, really important things to be looking at. This isn't just, hey, give your whole family the best shot of

21:56
you know, emotional relational health, this is serious, has serious implications. I think often when we're looking at maternal mental health, for example, or infant mental health, the conversation isn't always around what's that partnership like? And what are the opportunities there?

22:25
And how can we really address that? Maybe preventatively, but also if things aren't good after. Because often that other partner is sort of like the silent supporting partner that's also struggling. And those struggles, because they're maybe not as visible.

22:52
aren't processed, aren't shared, but when a couple can process struggle together and become really equal in their emotional needs and struggle, that bond can actually, not to say that one is like worse or better, that's kind of beside the point, but just like we're actually in this together. Yes, there's the, let's say the mom has

23:21
postpartum depression, really not doing well, not bonding with baby, everyone's concerned about baby. You know, this is like raises a lot of red flags. I think something that could be so exciting is if they brought in the other partner. Like, how are you? And what's it like when your partner isn't doing well? And what do you with that? Yeah. And then that actually impacts

23:52
the original partner, right? So it's like, this is how we're looking at the whole system. Building a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers.

24:20
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24:50
And that's something that's probably missing a lot of the time. I mean, it's easy to focus on the baby and making sure the baby's OK. Absolutely. I think it's only been relatively recently that people have been talking a lot more about, you know, the mother's mental health and well-being. And we're beginning to do a better job of looking at that. But like you're saying, like, how do we pull in the other partner and be able to say, you know, uh

25:20
bring just have those conversations about like again, it's not measuring who's struggling more, but it's just recognizing like there are challenges for everyone in this situation. Yeah. And if you can be, if everything is, is open and accessible and there's actually a relationship and where it's just, this is where I'm talking about how preventative health, right? Could really

25:47
benefits. If you already have a way that you just stay open and connected to each other, then when things happen, now this can be a bonding opportunity instead of something that just you deal with on your own and then the relationship suffers and then whoever's struggling has less to pull from. Does that make sense? Yeah.

26:17
Are there things, you know, if people are in that time when they're pregnant and are there things that they can do or begin, you know, conversations they can begin to have to help establish what you're talking about? Well, I, because I'm an EFT therapist, of course I love the book Hold Me Tight or Love Sense is another good one by Sue Johnson. Something really exciting is

26:45
We are now developing a Hold Me Tight specifically for expecting couples and new parents. And so I'm a part of that project and we're actually gonna start recording this week for that, a facilitators guide. this is coming, there will be a resource for couples to shore up their bond, but it's geared specifically for

27:15
this phase of life. But until that comes out, would say read Hold Me Tight together. There's questions at the end of chapter. There's also Hold Me Tight Online, which is a interactive program virtually. And you can go through that together. It's like a little step up from the book.

27:37
Yeah, great. And I don't know if you remember in one of our emails, you had written something like components of romantic attachment that are helpful for parenthood. I'm just curious what, you know, what does that look like or what does that mean? Yeah. So you've probably heard this before because I know you've had other EFT therapists on your podcast and I listened to several of your episodes, by the way. I just loved, you have some really wonderful

28:06
people on the show. And so I just I think that what you're kind of giving to the couples therapy world is beautiful. But this this is not going to this is going to be review for you, but maybe not for the for the audience. Yeah, it's always good to hear hear things again and again, you know. Yeah, that's right. So when I think of components of romantic adult attachment, I think of Sue's

28:35
Are you there for me? A is accessibility. I mean, I want to go into each one, the kind of my frame of it. R is responsiveness and E is engagement. So these things together really are what we mean when we say secure attachment. So the A for accessibility, another word I like to use there is visibility.

29:06
So it doesn't mean accessible like, are you physically always around? Right? It's not realistic. It means accessible emotionally. Like, can I actually see and feel you? And can I be seen and felt? So this is more than just the thoughts in our head. This is something about your inner world.

29:35
a little deeper than those kind of surface thoughts and behaviors. Like what, where are you really? And what are some of your deepest fears and longings just from being a human, right? We all have that. And some of us never really have the permission or safety or invitation to slow down and even discover that for ourselves.

30:05
These kinds of conversations can be so bonding and really help inform when you repair. So if the goal is not perfect connection, but effective repair, so we're going to have rupture and repair in our attachment relationships, then we have to know each other and know ourselves to be able to have those conversations.

30:34
So it's more than, I'm sorry, I won't do that again, or it really bugs me when you do this, can you just stop doing that? It's more than what if the content of what happened and deeper into here's me, here's what I think is really happening. And maybe here's how it relates to this thing that we need to decide. Like recently, I'll give an example, recently.

31:04
My husband went away with my oldest daughter on a trip and I was home as like a single parent with the other two kids. And I really bonded with my son and it made me realize I need to be more engaged with him even when you're home because when he's home, my son kind of gravitates to him. And so we had this great conversation and I told him, said, I think that

31:32
I'm missing out. You know, I felt so connected with him and you know, so I could have gone on and on about it really bugs me when, you know, I can't like get my way in because you two have your own thing and da da da da. But I chose to tell him something about me. And then we did have a practical conversation about what does that mean? Because yes, you two have this thing that

32:02
You know, it's like a train that leaves the station. It's hard to get it back once it's gone. But it's so important that I am more engaged. So that's kind of a long, long way around to talk about accessibility. But that's an example. Like, I want to be known and seen. And in those conversations, if we are seen and felt and we can see and feel

32:30
it's much easier to make practical decisions about our lives. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, well, I think people, it's so important to express your authentic truth. Yeah. You know, and oftentimes that comes out as blame or criticism. You know, so like if I have, you know, if I'm triggered when someone's late and my wife is late for something,

32:58
It's easy for me to just focus on blaming her for that as opposed to sharing her and opening up and saying, hey, this is how I'm feeling. This is something that's important to me. This is my experience of it. And, you know, so I think a lot of people are scared. Either they're scared to open up and share what's going on with them in a vulnerable way, or they feel like their partners kind of closed off.

33:28
and unavailable and they're trying to check in and they can't get a lot from their partner. That's right. Yeah. Yes. Building off of what you're saying, when I'm working with couples and then in my own life, I think about, when you're having the conversation, start with the focus on you inside, right? Instead of kind of looking to

33:56
what's outside. that's where it's easier. I mean, yes, what's outside of you, what the trigger outside of you, your wife being late, like that sets it off. But then the inside, what's happening on the inside, what it means to you, what it feels like inside of you. That's the good stuff that she gets out because it's true in other contexts too. It's not just about her being late, right? It's about you.

34:25
And so, and yeah, maybe there is also a conversation about the actual, you know, being on time. But so that. That's I hear you saying, just that, you know, kind of being mindful of each person's personality and how they bring themselves to those conversations and trying to create more of a flow between each other.

34:53
that visibility or accessibility. yes. starting with that, right. And that can be, you know, we're saying this in kind of a simple way, but sometimes that requires

35:09
Well, in therapy and the therapeutic process, this is where we get to slow down long enough because this moments happen so fast, right? We get triggered and then we make meaning of it and we protect ourselves super fast. In therapy, we can slow down and really get access to what's where are you inside of that? What's what's driving that? And

35:36
Once you get to know you on that level, then you can always bring that to whatever conversation. So that's the A, but then I'm thinking about the actual conversation. There's R, so are you there for me? A, accessibility, R, responsiveness. So when you make yourself known, do you get a response that says, oh,

36:05
I see you, I feel you, I love you even more. Right? Like, do you get a response? That's really, really important. And are you responsive when your partner, you know, takes a risk to show up in this really authentic, maybe vulnerable way? Are you responsive to that? So that's another component of secure attachment in adult romantic relationships.

36:35
And then the E, which I think is kind of like a result of A and R is engaged. So there's this engagement. And it's not about, I think when I think of the word engagement, I don't think like constant attention. Does that make sense? It's just kind of this knowing that we're together. We're on the same team.

37:04
We're working toward the same goal. There's engagement. Nobody's sort of like watching out for, are you going to pick up the slack over there or do I have it all? Like, are you um fighting for our relationship with us or am I the only one thinking about it? You know, or are you going to, are you going, I'm trying, I say that because I'm thinking more of the person who's a bit more like a pursuer. m

37:32
trying to do because I'm trying to offer the withdrawers dance like what would I think of with George is hoping that there's harmony there's peace there's safety right like we're going to be okay I can see on your face that we're together I can feel that we're okay you know that's it's engagement it's just like a knowing and and it really does show up

38:01
What I love about this work is when you're accessible and responsive, you don't have to tell people to show up for each other. They just do. That makes sense. Like you don't have to behaviorally train people to share the the chores or to communicate perfectly or to they just it's an outflow of this deeper work. Yeah, well, I'm thinking about

38:30
You know, I have particular people in my life where when I'm with them, I just feel relaxed and comfortable and like I can share what I'm thinking and it's easy to listen to them share what they're thinking. And then, you know, there's there's other people in my life, maybe who I who I don't feel as close to where I might have some like I don't really feel like I can't like like I'm protecting myself a little bit. Yeah, I'm going to say or.

39:00
you know, I'm feeling more like, like, like I can't open up as much. And, um, you know, I think in our relationships with our partner, you know, there's a lot at stake and I think it can easily feel like a safe flowing relationship. And then it can quickly feel like, I want to close down, know? Yes. Yes. Yes. And that's the attachment significance, right? It's because it's truly a lifeline. And so,

39:30
This is why people say like, I never act this way around anybody else. It doesn't matter as the stakes aren't as high with other people or other types of relationships. But in these attachment relationships, right, the stakes are high. So you're going to pick up on things in a different way. It's not even because you're trying to, it just happens. Like you're actually looking to that person to be there for you. And to know that you matter. You know, these are just

40:01
basic kind of human attachment questions that we have and it's not conscious, it's subconscious. So kind of bringing it full circle back to this stage of life when you're transitioning to be a parent, these are, this is, you know, are you there for me as we do this hard thing of raising this

40:30
in the world, you know, having changes, you know, for the, um for the mom in your body, right? And like hormonal changes and just all kinds of things that you read about and you hear about and you prepare for, but you just can't know until you're actually in it. So if you have a relationship that you can really

41:00
rely on each other, this period can actually be one of the sweetest, most bonding times of your entire life.

41:13
I would say life, but maybe married life for sure, um or intimate relationship life. But sadly in the couples that come to me, and I think Shane, you and I kind of relate on this, we both see couples, like you said, that come three years too late, right? So this is way, way, way, way, way later when I take their relationship history in that first session and I ask when did things really shift?

41:42
When did you not feel like a team anymore? When did you start to maybe become distance? 90 % of the time they'll say right after having kids. So it's pretty obvious to me. I see it again and again and again and again, but I don't think it's top of mind for people in dealing with this stage, other professionals.

42:12
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, some of the things you're talking about are just helpful for anybody, any relationship at any point. But there's so much, I think, about that time frame when you're getting ready to have children and you're just starting to have children that's unique and that people just don't have a good understanding of that. I think it's so helpful that you're talking about it in this way to kind of

42:41
bring the focus to that. And I mean, part of what I feel like as you're talking, I think part of what I feel like is so helpful is just kind of normalizing how stressful that experience is and like, that's OK. And that doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. And how do we stay sort of united as a team as we go through this? Yeah, yeah. The stress is like it's not if right. It's when you're having a child. I mean, it's beautiful and wonderful. And most people will tell you it's the

43:11
hardest thing I've ever done. Right? So it's so stressful. And even if it's good stress, it's still stress and it can be, you know, I think the everybody experience is different, right? But I think the spectrum is pretty wide. can be, you know, stressful, or really scary. And so this is such I mean, it's just such a tender and really important time.

43:39
to make sure that you have everything that you need going into that transition. Yeah, and I know I've worked with people in therapy where, you know, they've gone through their whole life and sort of felt good and things are fine. And then they have a child and all of sudden this anxiety that they didn't even realize was underneath the surface, you know, and possibly connected to their own childhood um starts coming up. And this

44:08
It's sort of like, oh my gosh, like, you know, I haven't dealt with so much of this stuff and I didn't need to until, you know, I have my own children. It happens all the time. Those kids, babies, kids, teenagers, they represent your vulnerability. Right. They do. It's like you now you can't. You know, and because you do care so much and you are bonded.

44:38
You can't get away from it. It's like there are little mirrors running around and it really is your own vulnerability that's getting triggered. And I think a lot of times people, when they talk about it, they're talking about their kids, right? Or they're talking about maybe their relationship where we can't get on the same page as in parenting. Like they're really, really focused on the kid.

45:05
That's important and that's good and we can't ignore that. But if we don't help them slow down and tune in to themselves. And like you're saying, you know, here's a probably younger part of you. Yeah, that's that's getting triggered and, and really like those, maybe some of those coping strategies that you had to get to this point are kind of not working anymore. So it's like,

45:35
I mean, I'm sure you've heard where people will have kids and they'll turn the age of how old they were when something happened to them when they were little. And so that's kind of what brings them to therapy. It's like, yeah, like you said, I was good and fine up till this point. Yeah. And now I'm, I can't like it's, I'm, struggling. I'm so anxious.

46:02
you know, maybe getting in my own way when I'm really trying to parent well, or it's affecting other types of relationships. So yeah, it's a huge, huge moment in a person's life. Yeah, absolutely. I had someone recently who started experiencing all this anxiety and they started coming into therapy. They're like, I don't understand what's going on. And

46:30
come to find out they had a 10 year old child and we sort of began to uncover they experienced a lot of bullying when they were 10 and they started making all these connections about, you know, why they were having this. They totally weren't conscious of the fact that there was a connection between those two things. And I think that, you know, once you start having children that those types of things are playing out, whether you're conscious of them or not and adding to the stress of

46:59
what's happening. And I love, I love the way you said that the, our children sort of represent the our own vulnerable selves. They really do. They really do. It's we, we think we're, we're looking at our kids, but I think in a way on the subconscious level, we're looking at a younger part of ourselves. We worked hard to not, to leave that part behind, right? We worked really hard to leave that part behind so that we could function.

47:28
become adults, um be successful. We can't be scared and insecure and have emotional needs. It's like, let's just leave that behind. But then when you have kids and you have to, of course, they're kids, they're little. Everybody recognizes and acknowledges their vulnerability because they literally are vulnerable. They need adults in their world. But I think it's this

47:58
kind of beautiful moment where people come face to face with their own younger self. And these are the kinds of conversations that I really want to encourage couples to have together. Because this is true of everyone. It just is. All parents. And just to have the opportunity to be real about that, to ARE, to be accessible, responsive, and engaged.

48:26
and those realities of what it's like to have your vulnerability running around in your backyard, falling down and getting sick and getting their feelings hurt. Or as babies crying and you don't know why they're crying. It's beautiful, it's messy, and it's just so, important to have someone that you're.

48:54
a team with and deeply connected with to share that journey. Yeah, that's great. Any other thoughts before we wrap it up? No, I'm just grateful for you and for this conversation. I hope it inspires someone, you know, to maybe start advocating for preventative care and relational health, pre-baby counseling.

49:22
I hope this starts somewhat of a movement. Yeah, absolutely. And where can people find more about you or get in touch with you, you know, if they have questions? Yeah. So my uh group practice website is RedTherapyGroup.com. So red, like the color, therapygroup.com. And you can find more about me and my practice and also some of our efforts to do some of this work.

49:51
is on that website as well. Great. Well, thank you so much, Kelly. I really appreciate it. This has been a great conversation. You're welcome. Thank you. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch.

50:21
podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody!

 

 

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