257: Emotional Repair with Andrea Dindinger

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Andrea Dindinger about emotional repair. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

• Episode Summary & Player
• Show Notes
• The Couples Therapist Couch Summary
• Transcript

The Couples Therapist Couch 257: Emotional Repair with Andrea Dindinger

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

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In this episode, Shane talks with Andrea Dindinger about emotional repair. Andrea is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and the Creator of Relationship Reboot: The Ultimate Couple's Training to Reignite Your Relationship and Transform How You Communicate. Hear how to help couples repair emotional disconnect, how to come up with an emotional repair plan, the importance of taking ownership & accountability in a relationship, when to bookmark conversations for a better time, and the benefits of talking through everything in your head with your partner. Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• Modeling emotional repair
• Ownership vs. blame
• 3 keys to emotional repair
• Balancing needs during stressful life stages 
• Emotional repair in relationships

To learn more about Andrea Dindinger and her courses, visit:

TherapyWithAndrea.Love

 

 

Show Notes

• 257: Emotional Repair with Andrea Dindinger
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [0:38] Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch 
• [1:28] Welcome to the show, Andrea Dindinger!
• [4:30] Emotional repair in relationships
• [7:51] Modeling emotional repair
• [10:14] Ownership vs. blame
• [14:29] The emotional labor gap
• [18:40] Responding to dysregulation
• [20:57] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [24:44] Boundaries and safe words
• [30:36] Three keys to emotional repair
• [33:10] Repairing big betrayals (like infidelity)
• [38:29] The importance of the roles of vulnerable speaker and the generous listener
• [43:49] Balancing needs during stressful life stages 
• [46:40] Connect with Andrea at TherapyWithAndrea.Love
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
This is something that's going to be healing over time again, again, again. And in order to fully heal this, we need to be able to talk about this six weeks from now, six months from now, six years from now.

00:20
The podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Birkel.

00:35
Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

01:05
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. everyone, welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and today I'm speaking with Andrea Dindinger, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and creator of Relationship Reboot. Hey Andrea, welcome to the show! Hi Shane, thanks so much for having me. Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited.

01:33
possibly to get a little bit into repairing emotional distance. But before we start talking about that, why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about yourself? I like to say that I was born a therapist. I remember sitting at the kitchen table as a little girl talking to my grandparents about their marriage. So I think I've kind of been doing this my whole life, um but really for the last 20 plus years. And couples are my passion. I love working with them. I love seeing the way they grow.

02:03
really, really want to support people in kind of waking up to their patterns and building some skills so that they can do that emotional repair that we're going to talk about today. Yeah, that's great. What is relationship reboot? Relationship reboot came out of the pandemic um because during that time I had so many people, like every therapist, just flooding and there's too many people for me to work with.

02:32
And so I thought, you know, I have some really tangible, very useful like tools that will help people kind of shift into a different mindset, a different perspective to open their heart, to melt the ice that's blocking them from connecting, to repair those little hurts. And so I put together this pretty short, it's like an hour and a half long course, different exercises, different tools. It's super, it's fun, it's funny.

03:02
Um, and it's super like digestible. It's, um, so, and you can find that on my website and it's pretty cheap. It's $47, but it's a great, like if people can't afford to get into therapy or they're having a tough time finding a couples therapist that both spouses like, it's just a great beginning point. So you begin to learn some of the things that you're going to do in a more concentrated, um, maybe even a more intense way with a couples therapist.

03:30
Yeah, it's a great course. Yeah, that's a great idea. I I think there's a lot of education that usually needs to happen. couples can do that in the couples therapy, which I think is different than education. But as therapists, often doing that kind of educational stuff as well. But if they can get it, they can get that to supplement the therapy. Oftentimes, I think it can be really helpful. Yeah. And at a way, way, way more affordable.

03:59
rate than going to therapy. And then they've already built some sort of a foundation before they're walking into the room, having to have these really activating and transformational conversations with their spouse and a of a stranger. Yeah. That's great. Well, let's get into repairing emotional disconnect a little bit. I think there are different specifics we can get into, but let's just start talking about it generally at first here.

04:30
I mean, think emotional repair happens, you know, on the big scale when there's been a affair or some sort of infidelity. And then it can happen like on a small scale when somebody, you know, just gets frustrated in the morning and uses a really harsh tone. So it's a whole spectrum in terms of that kind of repair. But at the core, it always kind of comes to the same place, this place of being able to take accountability.

05:00
for what you've done and the hurt that you've caused, whether it's intentional or unintentional and really owning like, did X, I yelled at you this morning and it doesn't even matter why, you know, I was stressed about this podcast say, but that's less important than like, hey, I know I yelled at you this morning and that wasn't nice. I can imagine that that didn't feel good. And it didn't feel good on my end either. And I don't want to speak that way all the way to the, you know, a bigger extreme of like,

05:28
I've had an affair on you. And so yeah, I was listening this morning to the love trap. you ever hear, you have that on your radio? My daughter is obsessed with it, but it's this guy who calls a woman or a man calls in to this radio station and they set up the partner with the opportunity to send free flowers to somebody.

05:52
And if they send flowers to their wife or whatever, then they're not having an affair. But if they send it to somebody else, you're busted. And I'm listening to that this morning. And it was, I mean, as a therapist, you're dying, right? You're like, Oh my God. For both people, for, you know, for the, for the girlfriend, just the, like that betrayal, having it confirmed probably is both satisfying and all very upsetting. And then this, you know, the boyfriend who is cheating.

06:23
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm just catching up. like, I don't even know what's going on here. You know, don't overreact. Wait, this isn't as it seems. And in that moment, I just was like, oh dude, like you've clearly been cheating on your girlfriend and I know you love her. And you need to say like, oh man, I've really done something hurtful. I've really done something that is probably destructive to our relationship. I hope not.

06:52
and I'm really, really, really sorry. um Right. We can work our way up to maybe talking about the affair situations, but I feel like even just on a day-to-day basis, like you said, people have such a hard time dealing with those little hurts, right? Those little harsh comments or whatever it might be. And when they come to couples therapy, there's often this sort of like, I need you to

07:21
I need you to make my partner less hurtful in the way they talk to me or whatever. Oftentimes I find myself asking, well, what happened after that? Because the emotional repair is probably a more important skill to have than trying to completely manage all of the things that could possibly go wrong. There's going to be those things that people feel hurt by. But I feel like some acceptance that we're not perfect and we're going to make mistakes.

07:51
And then having a really good sort of emotional repair plan and understanding of what that means, I feel like is almost as important as anything for couples. It's super important. Like just with the, you know, the tone of voice I've said to my, my family, my husband, my kids, like, Hey, sometimes I'm going to use a sharp tone and I don't want to, but it's like this automatic, right? It's just, get stressed and my, my tone will go sharp. So my invitation to all of you.

08:21
is when my tone is sharp, all I need you to say is like, hey, tone, know, tone mommy. And that's my, it's like such a loving gesture that they can do for me because it's my way of saying like, oh yeah, I just use a really harsh tone that didn't feel good for you. And I want to, I acknowledge that I did that and let me see if I can do it better. Let me try again. And so that's like, that's like this one little place of that emotional repair. And what's so cool is when you do that with your spouse in front of your children,

08:50
they began to learn how to take that accountability, how to take the respond non-defensively to something that they've done. And it just shifts everything. It's so powerful when people can respond non-defensively. Yeah. And I think that there is such a mindset in our society of figuring out who's right or wrong or like doing things perfectly, you know, where it's like, I,

09:20
forget to feed the cat or something. And then my wife speaks to me in a not the nicest tone because I forgot. Then it's sort of like, she's like, well, you forgot to feed the cat. And I'm like, well, I don't like the way you're talking to me. And we can kind of go back and forth about who's doing something wrong here. Let's figure out who's right or wrong. And that's such a wonderful thing to model for children is the humility of

09:48
Yes, oh my gosh, I made a mistake. I'm really sorry. And not continuing down this oh building a case about who's more right. Yeah. I like to teach my couples that when they're blaming somebody, when they're trying to find whose fault is this, it's an indication to themselves that they're having a lot of really big feelings.

10:14
And they don't want to own those feelings. They don't want to have those feelings. So they want to discharge them onto somebody else. Who can I blame for all of these feelings inside? And generally it's a feeling of powerlessness that I have no control over this situation. And so I want to blame somebody who didn't feed the cat. Who's, you know, who's going to, you know, be the recipient of my frustration, my feeling of like, I have to do everything. I resentment my, you know, I feel alone.

10:43
Um, all of those feelings, um, are underneath the who, who didn't feed the cat, that kind of an accusation. And I want to blame somebody in there. And so the person who's kind of shoveling out the blame, if they can say like, Oh, the cat didn't get fed. That makes me feel really alone. I feel frustrated. I feel upset about the cat. I feel like I'm just building a presentment. And so I'm, I'm speaking harshly to you and I don't want to feel that way.

11:13
But then owning those feelings, it's so much easier to be like, oh, sweetheart, I love you. Thank you for letting me know you feel alone. I'm here. I forgot to feed the cat, but I'm to do it right now. But let me know what else is happening, right? There's like something small, like forgetting to feed the cat is an opportunity for people to build such a deep and loving connection. that, you know, if people just own their side of it.

11:39
And it's like, that's the thing. Like, I feel like if more and more people are taking ownership of what they're saying and what they're doing, we begin to transform the whole world. Yeah, absolutely. If I own my experience and I say something like, you know, this makes me feel really lonely. That's very vulnerable. And is that why you would say that people avoid doing that sometimes? Sure. mean, is unpleasant. Yeah.

12:08
Yeah, because it feels in some ways I feel much more protected if I'm just blaming the other person for what they're doing wrong. And I don't have to expose myself about what's going on for me. Like even just thinking about that radio show this morning, if she would have said, like, I feel really hurt, you know, I feel vindicated that I, you know, I was had a felt sense, but I feel really, really hurt by this. Like it would have been a different conversation.

12:38
Obviously they're not doing that. They're doing it for intensity, but it would have been also so incredibly intense and powerful for her to feel empowered, to be vulnerable and speak to her experience and for him to be even more vulnerable. I think that's, you know, also another gift we give to our children, but we give it to like our parents. If our parents witness us have an interaction with our, with our spouse.

13:04
and we respond to our spouse with vulnerability, our parents who have taught us how to blame and how to defend, they begin to shift and be like, wow, that's a different conversation than I've ever seen happen. It's wild. Yeah. I agree with you. I I think that the way that we really can change the world happens just in personal relationships. And I mean, I've noticed it just in my

13:32
just in our kids' generation. They have skills that I don't even have just because of the generation they're growing up in, I think, and the way that they can speak to each other respectfully or be considerate of other people's viewpoints or all of these different things, which I think is really cool. One of my favorite memories is my son was super grouchy one morning. And I was like, dude, what's up?

14:00
And, you know, was like, then later that afternoon, he comes back and he's like, Hey, mom, I'm sorry, I was so grouchy. Um, this morning, I think I was really tired and I was actually hungry and I was a little bit stressed about this exam. And, you know, I'm really sorry I spoke to you that way. And, you know, I'd forgotten about it, but it was like, Oh, like my whole heart just completely melted to have him own that. And I think about, you know, his future wife and the benefits that.

14:29
she's gonna have and I'm sure he's gonna marry somebody who's able to also have those kinds of conversations because what we're doing, what we're showing to these kids around taking ownership and accountability. Yeah, that's so cool. One of the things you and I were talking about before we started recording was the emotional labor gap. And I feel like that's a good, uh it's sort of like, okay, well, what if...

14:55
I'm trying to do the things that you're talking about. I'm trying to emotionally repair, but it feels like my partner still isn't showing up in the way that I'm hoping for. maybe the emotional labor gap is one way we could talk about that. Yeah. So one of the things, you know, I sent out this weekly newsletter and I'm always giving like homework or things I want you to try on for the week or ways I want you to like shift your perspective and think about something and

15:21
Oftentimes, you know, women will write me and be like, why do I have to be the one to do this? Why am I always the one who has to, you know, soothe my partner? Why am I the one? And, you know, that's an expression of feeling frustrated as well as resentful about having to do all of this emotional labor. And I often say, well, somebody has to be the leader in this relationship. Somebody has to say like, Hey, I'm willing to.

15:50
Grant Grace and say, you know, think the best of this person knowing that they didn't do this on purpose. They still did it, but they didn't do it on purpose. And so first of all, it's kind of keeping that kind of positive mindset towards your partner involved. But, you know, the problem with this idea of like, why do I have to be the one is then if somebody doesn't do it, it does the emotional maturity doesn't take place.

16:17
And when the emotional maturity begins to take place and the other person can also then take responsibility and that emotional gap shrinks. But it's really around using that emotional language. So, you know, if a husband has a really hard time and unfortunately, I, you know, it sounds a little, don't mean to be a stereotypical, but oftentimes men don't have a lot of the emotional language and skills to express themselves. wasn't, you know, part of our society. It wasn't something that's encouraged.

16:47
And so oftentimes I find men, the one emotion they can really access is anger. So they get frustrated about the trash not being thrown out or frustrated driving, and they have this kind of emotional flare up. so oftentimes the car will get like, you know, quiet and awkward or tiptoey. And that's not actually building emotional connection, right? This person's just had this outburst. And so what I like to

17:15
help people do is say like, you felt really scared. Um, just driving it seems like you felt got really scared driving just now. Um, that was a really dangerous situation. Are you okay? Or they have this outburst about the trash not being taken out and you say like, Hey, are you okay? That the trash not being thrown was really upsetting to you with what's going on and just applying this to be their partner. This partner, way they're responding could to them. Uh Yeah.

17:43
really finding like this place of curiosity when somebody has this big emotional dysregulation moment, they can bring that place of like, I know I'm not that person at fault. I'm not the asshole. I didn't do this on purpose. I'm not wrong in this. Like they have to keep that mindset that this isn't necessarily about them because it isn't. It's about my partner having this, having an expression like who knows what's happened. Maybe

18:11
They had a tough conversation or they're thirsty or a zillion things can be happening. And so when they apply that place of curiosity, instead of getting mad at them for shouting at them for. You know, the other driver, they get curious and say like, Hey, that was really scary. What's, know, what's going on? Are you okay? Do you need anything? And to not get in trouble for having a dysregulated moment, how many little kids were told certainly of my generation.

18:40
hopefully it's happening less and less, but like, you know, if you don't stop crying and give you something to cry about, right? It's like, shut that down. Do not do that. And this is like kind of turning that on its head around just saying like, I see you're upset. What do you need? Are you okay? I'm here for you. I'm, I'm a partner to you. And that like, that's that emotional connection that happens. And yes, unfortunately, somebody has to be the adult.

19:10
to be the first person to do that. But the more somebody does that and gives that to the other person, the more the other person can say like, oh yeah, I did just get really upset with that driver. And I shouted and we're in the car and that was probably really loud. Hey guys, I apologize for that. Yeah, that guy scared me how he was driving. Right? And then the whole car relaxes. Everybody in the car understands what was happening.

19:37
And then eventually the, if we're practicing this and I think that's the number one thing I would love everybody to realize is like, it's all practice. It's constant ongoing practice. We'll never get it right. A hundred percent of the time, but that the more we practice, the more second-hand it becomes, the more ingrained in our, in ourselves and our language and our mindset, it becomes the easier it is to have these kinds of conversations.

20:04
But once we're soothing our partner who's just had this emotional dysregulation, which people feel very frustrated about having to do that kind of emotional labor work. And I totally get it. But the more we do it, the more the person begins to feel safe. And the more safe that person feels, the easier it is for them to take ownership of, you know, their outburst. Then once they're able to take ownership, then they can

20:33
feel the flood of the feelings come up and go like, Whoa, you guys, this driver really scared me. can feel how angry I am, but just name it instead of having to, you know, explode all over and have everybody else's nervous systems be rattled. It's powerful to be able to do that dance. a private practice can be challenging.

20:57
Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment.

21:25
Plus when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com backslash A-T-P-P or click the link in the show notes to learn more. Yeah, I completely agree with what you're saying.

21:52
I'm interested in how you would describe it, but I think that there has to be some foundation of good intention, perhaps, especially in this example, the male partner, to be able to see that they have good intentions, maybe there's a lot of strengths that they're bringing to the relationship. The emotional regulation may not be one of them, but they're making an effort.

22:20
doing a lot to contribute to the family and to the relationship. And in that context, the willingness as you're talking about, perhaps if the other partner is more emotionally mature, to have some patience around that and to be able to respond in the way you're talking to. That would be very different than a situation that I might describe as somewhat abusive where everyone's scared of the guy's temper all the time and the outbursts going and...

22:48
You're constantly just trying to manage it. Everyone's walking on eggshells and there's no accountability for it. There's no insight about it. There's no willingness to take a look at what's happening. So just to clarify, at least that's from my perspective about what you're saying. Yeah. I mean, there are some people that have so much trauma. We hear narcissistic personality disorder all over the place. And there are some people that it's not actually

23:18
I'm not going to say it's not possible because I would do this work if I didn't think everybody was able to grow, but it's going to be a much deeper uphill climb for some people. Some people it's going to be a little bit easier ah if they have a little bit less trauma, if they don't have a personality disorder kind of way of thinking. But I think for the most part, people with enough kind of recognition that the dad just shouted because

23:47
He was actually scared and wanted to keep his, family safe. It wasn't that he was trying to be, you know, upset the whole car. And so having that like good intention kind of mentality in there goes a long, long way. But I think you're right. Like there's a certain point where it becomes abusive and you have to set a different kind of, a different kind of boundary. Yeah. And I think that's why therapy can be really helpful. Um, because

24:17
There's a difference in what you're talking about, which I think is really healthy and really good for the whole family. And maybe we could think about it from the standpoint of what we're modeling for our children. There's a difference between the healthy way of doing it that you're describing versus something that I would say is not as healthy and just sort of more fear-based, perhaps.

24:44
And I think it's really, really hard if somebody's to have this kind of a conversation, if somebody's been drinking or both parties have been drinking or using any kind of substance, right? There's already that kind of dysregulation, the, you know, the depressed nervous system from the alcohol is trying to kind of lift back up. And so I think what I often give my couples this homework assignment is just to choose a safe word. That means we're not going to have this conversation right now.

25:12
both parties are too fired up or one party is. so if one party is both parties are. And so we come up with a safe word that says like, Hey, my husband, I use the word bookmark. It's a fantastic word, but we just say like, Hey, let's bookmark this till tomorrow morning. And then tomorrow morning you come back at that specific time and say like, what, you know, what happened in the car yesterday? Um, you got really upset. What was happening for you, right? Where he's not going to be dysregulated. I'm not going to be dysregulated.

25:42
And that real sense of curiosity can be there or somebody's been drinking and they get, you know, belligerent the night before in the moment saying like, Hey, let's bookmark this. Let's, know, let's bookmark this till tomorrow afternoon and really come back and see like what was happening. Cause oftentimes it is substances that are kind of unleashing all of this dysregulation really. And so then the person can actually go back and own that like, yeah, I was drinking too much and

26:12
I was really, really aggressive with my language and I don't even necessarily know what was going on. But what I do know is I probably need to pay a little bit more attention to how much I'm drinking. And, you know, all of those are just different ways people can not blame somebody, not try and find fault, but to, you know, bring that curiosity so that the other person can have some curiosity, you know, navigate those moments of emotional disconnection in a really

26:41
beneficial and positive way.

26:45
Yeah, one way that you're talking about it is sort of having the conversation outside of the heat of the moment, right? And so part of it is the repair that we've been discussing and being accountable for what happened. But it sounds like another part of that could be, let's take a look at like how we make this better going forward or like, and like you said, like,

27:13
maybe looking at it like we're a team working together. Here's what's going to be helpful for me. Tell me what's going to be helpful for you. And working with each other to continue uh to update what the plan looks like. Yeah. Because when you come up with that word and what I tell my couples is like, when you use the word bookmark, what you're saying is I love you. I love you so much that I'm not going to have this conversation with you right now because I'm too upset or you're too upset.

27:43
And we're not in our, you know, in the prefrontal cortex of our mind, we're in that back brain and this, you know, the fight flight freeze area. And we're never going to make any real progress or any connection there. So I love you. We're pausing this conversation until a specific time. And oftentimes, at least initially when people are calling bookmark, the person who receives that, you know, that invitation to pause can feel like they're being told to shut up.

28:13
And they often, they often are right. It's like a bookmark because whatever is happening here is no good. But when you get, when you say bookmark in that instance, knowing that underneath that is this, I love you. I care about you. I care about us. I care about doing this differently. And so do you, I know you love me and care about us and doing this differently tomorrow afternoon. This conversation is going to make a lot more sense for in an hour.

28:43
And so having that, keeping that in mind beforehand, before there's conflict, it changes the way people navigate their conflict. Yeah. Yeah. And even just having that understanding that that's part of what bookmark means. Yeah. You know, because I might not remember to tell you I love you in the moment, but that's what I, if we talk it out ahead of time, like there's so much that could be attached to

29:12
the meaning of bookmark. I have a course, just this little mini course called the Loot Breaker coming out in mid August. And it's about, it's like five different strategies to kind of stop these fights that, you know, create this emotional distance between couples. But it's, you know, when you're having that same fight again and again and again.

29:37
and stopping that fight. And a lot of that is, you know, one of the big components is being able to call bookmark and having that sense of, you know, let's do this differently. And it is, you know, the person who buys the, you know, I think it's $17 or something course and watches it, you know, is already doing that emotional labor, emotional load labor. But I think that when you do that,

30:04
And you recognize like, if I do this emotional load labor in the short term and then share it, what's going to happen is I'm going to be doing less emotional labor. It's like, you know, teach a man to fish versus just giving him fish. And I think that's what is kind of be underneath these courses around like really teaching people how they can just do it differently and, have it be a little bit more fun and a little easier.

30:32
unless disconnected in their marriages. Yeah. You know, anything else that we should be thinking about when we're talking about the emotional repair?

30:46
I think the keys to emotional repair is taking that accountability piece. That's like, first and foremost, I did X and it made you feel Y. em And just that one piece, think repair is probably 90 % of the hurt. I think the second piece of that that's really important is just appreciation that this person has told them how pissed off they are at them. oh

31:15
You're not blaming them for getting mad at them because they did something, you know, really appreciate like, you know, I appreciate your telling me this because otherwise then I don't have the opportunity to take accountability and repair. But then the last piece is super important is saying like, okay, I recognize that I did this thing and it was super hurtful to you. And my plan for next time I'm in this kind of a situation I'm running late.

31:43
you know, I'm just going to call and say, Hey, I'm going to be 30 minutes late. And I know that still might be upsetting, but I'm going to do something. I'm going to give you a heads up next time instead of just showing up 30 minutes late, or, know, I'm going to set a, you know, an alarm that says I have to leave work at this time so that I'm on time or, you know, drinks with the girls or how I'm going to do it differently. And then really putting that into practice. So I think it makes the other person feel seen.

32:13
and really like validated in what their experience was, then appreciated for sharing that with you, that they're not crazy for telling you how upset, you know, this certain behavior made them. And then kind of reassuring them like, I'm going to try and do it differently. This is what I'm going to do. And this is how I'm going to do it. Those kind of three steps are really foundational to creating humongous

32:40
repair gaps that are created in our day-to-day life. Yeah. And I do feel like a lot of what we're talking about is the small scale category. Some of it might be big. Can you say a little bit more about the big scale or things that might, you know, when I think about that, I'm thinking things that it's not just going to be like one conversation. It might be kind of an ongoing process or something like that. For sure. Like in the case of infidelity is like the biggest.

33:10
Um, and infidelity can happen, you know, sexually, can happen with substances. can happen with gambling. can happen with finances. You know, it can happen in a lot of different ways, but let's just stick with kind of like the classic definition of infidelity. If a couple wants to stay together and you know, every couple is going to make a different kind of, um, decision in there. And I think there's a whole process they go into, but say a couple really wants to stay together.

33:40
and there is real remorse for the kind of hurt and pain that they've caused their partner. What I always, always, always tell my people is like, this is something that's going to be healing over time again, again, again. And in order to fully heal this, we need to be able to talk about this six weeks from now, six months from now, six years from now.

34:07
And that it's not something that we get defensive about that, you know, if somebody's doing the dishes and your phone uh dings and they have this flare up, you know, kind of a PTSD response to this infidelity that happened to be able to say like, Whoa, I just felt myself flare and got really, really nervous hearing your, you know, your text message go off. And for the person who's cheated.

34:34
to really say thank you so much for telling me that. That makes so much sense to me. I know, you know, we're in the process of rebuilding and, you know, my phone was one of the ways that, you know, I hid from you and I don't want to do that again. And, you know, do you want to see what just came in through my text? You know, just like that very concrete roof in some ways makes the person relax. But then it's that place of just being open to somebody saying it.

35:04
Six years later, they can be driving in the car for no reason. Nothing's happened. Nothing's dinged. Somebody can get just that like electric current through their system and be able to say like, whoa, I just felt myself get mad at you again about, you know, sleeping with whoever. And for the person who's, know, on the other side of that, like, oh, wow. Okay. You know, like.

35:29
Yeah, we need to, we need to talk about this. You know, what happened for you? Thank you so much for telling me. I regret that every single day of our marriage. I mean, that's foundational. I, I sometimes think like, is that what Bill Clinton did for Hillary? Like, how did they repair that? You know, how do you like, you know, these big high profile uh marriages where people are unfaithful, like, you know, do they actually repair them in this way where they continue going forward? I don't know. I'm not their therapist.

35:59
Yeah, and I'm sure you've seen this dynamic where, you know, the person who had the affair is sort of like, why do we have to keep talking about this? Why can't we just move on? And I think the way you just described it would be really healthy, you know, to sort of lean in, to sort of say, like, it makes sense that you're still feeling hurt. Like, do you want to talk more about it? That might be something people have to learn how to do.

36:29
Again, especially after some period of time, it's important, like you said, six years later, it's important to still have that willingness to be present with those difficult emotions. It creates an emotional connection. It can be like, oh, sweetheart, thank you so much for telling me I'm still so sad. And that person feels loved by not being, why aren't you over this?

36:59
You know, makes them, you that creates that emotional distance. But to say like, Oh man, I'm so sorry that we're still talking about this. God, if I could, can take it back. would, but I appreciate that you're bringing it forward. What came up? What do you think? What do you think, you know, made you nervous, scared, and then that there's like that place of real connection and curiosity that really heals.

37:29
kind of anything. Yeah, and I think you sort of alluded uh earlier on that we all have things that we went through growing up that sort of impact the way we feel that in the situation. If my partner's still bringing that up six years later, I might feel like you're blaming me again for something that I haven't done for the last six years.

38:00
I feel more, it's harder for me to uh move into compassion, which might be the healthy step. This is not about me being a bad person. This is about my partner's feelings and their experience and how do I focus on that rather than protecting myself. And so that's where that role of who's the emotional regulator, the person who's holding the emotional... um

38:29
garbage in a marriage, right? So it becomes the person who, you know, actually left the marriage in this really hurtful way, who now has to come back into the marriage and be the one who holds the emotional gap that's there. And so they're switching roles, um, in order to do it. And that's where it becomes so powerful where you're, you're not getting mad at somebody like, Oh, wow. Yeah. Six years later, we're still, we're still navigating this.

38:57
I still, you know, I still feel terrible and you're having these difficulties and it's bringing up stuff from your parents' marriage. And it makes sense that we're having this conversation instead of blaming to defend yourself. Yeah. And this doesn't fully capture it, but I think I describe it as like the speaker versus the listener energy. You know, if I'm a listener, it requires a level of generosity.

39:27
and me not being triggered and making it about the other person's experience and holding space for that person. um both people probably have to do that for each other at different times during the relationship. But if we're both trying to be the speaker and no one's really listening, that can be very difficult. Very difficult. And I think then there's no opportunity for

39:56
that accountability piece, is, you know, primary to healing. But I think you're right, you know, oh, I'm the listener right now. And it's interesting. I have this thing that my husband and I'll do, and I'm just like, I just need you to listen to all of the things in my head, all of the things I'm worried about. And, you know, that's a real act of vulnerability, but that's also, you know, shrinking that emotional divide that I'm holding, you know, going back to school.

40:25
getting all the, you know, the calendar dates in the calendar, figuring out, we have the school supplies? How are we going to do the different commutes? Like if I can just share all of these things that are going on, we're creating this emotional connection that I don't have to feel so alone in it. I would say you feel emotionally connected. Your husband doesn't have to necessarily feel the same level of emotional connection.

40:54
but he could still be willing to provide you with that space. With him providing me that space, he's telling me that he cares about what I care about. And in that, there is that emotional connection. Well, again, you feel emotionally connected. Whether he does or not, would say doesn't matter. If he's willing to the listener,

41:22
Like we don't have to define it as a success that we both feel the emotional connection in same way at the same time. That's great if he does too. But if I feel that emotional connection that he's given me by listening, I'm going to give back to him that, you know, that feeling of like gratitude, appreciation, you know, thank you for letting me get this out of my head.

41:46
And then he's going to feel that sense of like, Oh, I've just done something really useful, really beneficial. So I'm going to feel good. And it's like, you just keep like, you know, passing on totally.

41:59
If he doesn't get stressed out by me sharing when I'm stressed out about. Right. But I guess I yeah, I just want people to feel successful. Like if my wife wanted to do that with me, it doesn't mean I have to like it. It doesn't mean I'm feeling like I'm warm and fuzzy because she's unloading everything in her mind. But that could still be a very generous act, which I agree could lead to

42:29
other ways that I'm feeling good about it. Absolutely. Yeah, there's all these little ways to shrink that emotional gap between couples. Yeah. But yeah, I think that it's really important that each person describes what they need. And it's it's often very different from each other.

42:53
And that's okay. Like, that's why I have to know, am I in the mode where I'm trying to give my wife what she needs or am I in a place where I'm asking for something that's important to me? And those could be very different. I think it's even more meaningful. Like if someone's making an effort at something, you know, like I hear people say like, well, I want my partner to want to, you know, watch a movie with me the same time. Or empty the, yeah. Yeah, that's a better one.

43:22
empty the dishwasher. I'm like, no, like, it doesn't matter if they want to or not. Like, it's actually more meaningful if they don't want to and they're still willing to do it because so I just think it helps sort of people feel better about each other, you know, the efforts that each other, you know, they're both making in the situation. One, you know, snag that couples can experience is

43:49
if we both have big needs in a given moment. um, you know, that can be really tricky. Like I think about the beginning of, know, becoming parents where, know, there's this crying baby and somebody needs, you know, both people are exhausted and whose need, you know, whose emotional need comes first. You know, is it the dad who needs to get up and go to work? Is it the mom who needs to sleep so that she can take care of this? You know, there's, you know, that's an it.

44:18
an extreme time when couples often feel a lot, a lot of emotional, just tension in their, in their marriages. And, you know, what I like to help my couples in those situations do is say like, okay, how about we take turns, you share with me everything that you're worried about. And I'm going to just, I'm going to just listen. I don't need to do anything about it. I don't need to change anything. don't need to fix anything.

44:46
And then I'm going to share with you everything that I'm worried about or stressed about. Or what's even sometimes even a little bit even more successful with time being so limited sometimes is to, I'm to write out all of the things I'm worrying about right now that I'm stressed about. And you write out all the things you're stressed about and let's just share our lists with each other. So like, and it's a way of letting each other know, know you more intimately. I'm worried about, are we using the right diapers?

45:15
you know, whatever it is. And it's like, it's, it helps on so many levels. One, just writing it down helps them process their feelings on a deeper level. Then we share it with our partner. You know, there's that place of connection. Our partner shares their list with us. We get to see like, oh, there's a lot of things on here that we overlap that we're both concerned about. And then that's where that place of creativity and um collaboration come in, where people can come up with like really interesting and cool solutions to.

45:44
these issues that they're navigating. Yeah, and I think that it's really cool to come up with a plan together, to sort of say both of our needs are priority right now. When we get to that moment where the baby's crying in the middle of the night, we've talked about it before, we've made a plan for it, we're both feeling like our needs might be prioritized at different times.

46:12
It might be my turn to get up with the baby and I'm not super happy about that, but at least I'm feeling like heard and understood and like maybe I'll, you know, I'll get the next time I'll get what I need or whatever. Yeah, that's great. Thank you so much for taking the time. Do you want to mention your website as well or your newsletter, how people can find you? Yeah, they can find me at TherapyWithAndrea.Love

46:40
And you can sign up for my newsletter there. You can find my courses, the relationship reboot, and the loop breaker. My newsletter, it's really fun. And I am straight talking it like it is. um And it's not fluffy in any way and really useful skills. So I'd love for people to sign up if they're interested. It's been fun, fun, fun talking with you, Shane. Thank you. Great. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah, this has been a great conversation. And hopefully we can catch up again at some point in the future.

47:10
Yeah, I would love that. episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy.

47:38
I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody!