248: Imposter Syndrome with Dr. Jill Stoddard
Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.
In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Jill Stoddard about Imposter Syndrome. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.
- Episode Summary & Player
- Show Notes
- The Couples Therapist Couch Summary
- Transcript
The Couples Therapist Couch 248: Imposter Syndrome with Dr. Jill Stoddard
This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/
Join the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new
Join The Couples Therapist Couch Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/295562197518469/
In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Jill Stoddard about Imposter Syndrome. Jill is a Speaker, Author, Podcaster, Psychologist, and Coach on Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT). Hear what Imposter Syndrome looks like in couples, how to help your clients embrace their authentic emotions, what to do when a client feels insecure, the 5 personas under the Imposter Syndrome umbrella, and the power of relationships. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:
- What is imposter syndrome?
- How to get distance from your fear?
- Addressing the Gap Trap
- The 5 different ways that people try to avoid being a fraud
- The connection between vulnerability and discomfort
To learn more about Dr. Jill Stoddard, her books, her podcast, and her Substack, visit:
Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:
Show Notes
-
248: Imposter Syndrome with Dr. Jill Stoddard
- This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
- [1:11] Welcome back, Dr. Jill Stoddard!
- [2:43] Check out Dr. Stoddard's book: Imposter No More
- [3:29] What is imposter syndrome?
- [5:42] What's the prevalence of imposter syndrome?
- [8:11] What creates the safety to feel authentic?
- [12:09] Neutralizing pressure
- [13:23] Normalizing mistakes
- [17:17] Confidence is directly related to what matters to you
- [19:22] What questions help people get to the core meaning of their worry?
- [21:30] Addressing the Gap Trap
- [23:24] Use your senses to practice discomfort
- [26:16] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
- [27:08] The 5 different ways that people try to avoid being a fraud
- [31:41] How does procrastination help us?
- [33:34] Why is it so hard to listen to a partner?
- [35:32] The connection between vulnerability and discomfort
- [38:08] We're hard-wired for social connection
- [40:43] How to navigate relationships while managing imposter syndrome?
- [45:02] Taking control over your reality
- [49:32] Check out Dr. Stoddard's website to stay connected!
- This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
What is The Couples Therapist Couch?
This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.
Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/
Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new
Transcript
Note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.
00:00
these imposter thoughts and feelings are actually positively correlated with success. And we think that's because the higher you climb, the more is expected of you. And now you have a reputation to defend.
00:16
The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Birkel.
00:32
Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.
01:01
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. everyone, welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and today I'm speaking with Dr. Jill Stoddard, author, psychologist, podcaster and speaker on acceptance and commitment therapy. Hey Jill, welcome to the show. Hi Shane, thanks so much for having me again.
01:28
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. In our last interview, we were talking all about ACT and, you know, I, we finished and I just really wanted you to come back. I, you I wanted to have more time to talk about imposter syndrome. So I really appreciate you being generous and being willing to come back on. And I'm excited for this part two, talking more about imposter syndrome. Yeah, me too. My pleasure. I love talking about it. And I know, you know, people can go back and listen to part one, but
01:57
Do want to just do a brief introduction of yourself again, uh, for those who didn't hear that episode? Sure. Well, I, you pretty much did it. I'm a psychologist and I wear lots of hats. have a podcast called psychologists off the clock, which I love and have so much fun doing where we also interview experts in psychology and I see therapy clients in California, uh, professional and health coaching clients across the world, I suppose.
02:24
And I do a lot of public speaking and pretty much everything. And of course I've written a few books and everything that I do really all centers on psychological flexibility, which is the main goal of ACT, which is, which was the topic that we talked about in our first interview together. Yeah, great. And can you mention what was, what's the title of, you wrote a book specifically on imposter syndrome. that right? I did. It's called imposter no more.
02:49
overcome self-doubt and imposterism to cultivate a successful career. And it's really all applying act and psychological flexibility tools to be able to manage those imposter thoughts and feelings. And so as we're beginning the conversation about imposter syndrome, maybe it would be helpful just to sort of lay out somewhat of a definition for those who aren't sure what we're talking about, or at least the way you see it.
03:15
It is really this feeling of phoniness or inadequacy, typically like an intellectual phoniness or inadequacy, like it shows up mostly in career, but it can certainly show up across really any domain. And these feelings kind of persist even when there's evidence to the contrary. So in other words, people who suffer from the imposter thoughts and feelings are typically bright. They're typically successful, but they struggle to believe those things about themselves despite their accomplishments. So they might.
03:45
question their legitimacy, might question whether they really belong in certain groups, especially elite groups. They might believe that other people overestimate their competence and all of that lead and what makes this really an imposter phenomenon rather than just negative self talk is all of that really leads to a fear of being found out like.
04:07
any minute everyone's going to figure out, I don't actually know what the heck I'm doing, or I don't really deserve this job, or this promotion, or this award, or whatever the case may be. Yeah, and you said it's often in the workplace. I'm interested if I'm going to say something about my perspective. You can tell me if you agree or not. But I I think this shows up in a big way just in people's personal lives. Just being in groups of people and feeling like
04:36
you know, we have to wear a mask or feeling like we have to look a certain way or feeling like, you know, someone's going to figure out that I'm not as good as, uh, they think I am or something like that. And there's just this, this like deep fear, I think as human beings that, you know, stems from our own lack of self-esteem or something like that. Yeah. I, my suspicion is that really what's underneath all of it, wherever and however it shows up is a fear of disconnection.
05:04
I mean, you we now know through what eight decades of research that the most robust predictor of both our physical and mental health and wellbeing, like even our mortality and morbidity, the most robust predictors, the presence of quality relationships in our lives, right? It's those bonds. And if you think about a fear of being found out, you're specifically worried about what other people are going to think about you. And you know, what, why do you care what other people think about you? Because.
05:31
bonds really matter to human beings. you know, I honestly think people always ask like, well, who experiences this and where does it come from? And what I find really interesting is the prevalence rate is pretty high. Now, the research on this is pretty terrible. Like if you Google the words imposter syndrome, you'll get hundreds of millions of hits. But if you go to a scientific database, you get hundreds of hits.
05:55
And even that, a lot of, not very robust science. It's very small and it's like mostly correlational studies. There's only a handful of really well-done studies. So the prevalence rates vary widely. I've seen as low as nine and as high as 86, but most studies range from like 40 to 70%, which means most of us experience this. And, you know, sort of an aside is that it was never meant to be called imposter syndrome when it was identified in the late sixties.
06:24
sorry, late 70s, 1978, it was called the imposter phenomenon. A syndrome is a disorder. It's a disease. It's a pathology. What other disorder, disease, or pathology exists in over half our population? None. That's ridiculous, right? And so what I really think is going on here is that this is like evolutionarily programmed into us. You the same way like, you know, a skunk has a smell or a chameleon changes its colors that
06:52
Early humans who hunted and gathered and traveled together had a survival advantage. No sharp claws, no sharp teeth, no running at high speeds. We had each other. And if you got kicked out of your tribe, you were literally dead. And so to develop an inner voice saying, do I measure up? Do I add value? Are they going to think that I'm not, you I don't build as good a fire as that person does or
07:18
I can't carry as much heavy wood. And if they find out, I'm going to get kicked out. I can't emphasize enough that this is such a normal experience. The majority of us will experience it at some point. And I think it was kind of baked into us to be adaptive. And it's still adaptive because the most robust predictor of our well-being is the presence of relationships in our life. And so we care about.
07:46
the sanctity of those relationships. If I'm found out and I get kicked out of the group at work or wherever, then that's a threat to my bond, to my relationships, and ultimately to my life, my wellbeing. Yeah, so yeah, that's great. It's part of the human experience, probably part of the way we've evolved over hundreds of thousands of years. And that being said, was thinking about this idea of
08:13
you know, moving into authenticity, you know, let's say, let's imagine like a dating relationship, right? Like if I'm really insecure and I'm trying to make the other person like me, and I'm just sort of like trying to do what I think that they're going to think is cool or whatever, but, I'm not being very authentic or open, you know, over time, people feel that it's sort of disconnecting. It's sort of like the more we can move into our own authenticity, the more
08:43
people want to connect with us and the more it feels like a healthy relationship. And I feel like there's something to be said for, you know, if you grow up in a relatively secure family system, it feels easier to be authentic. There's a safety that you feel more more so in yourself potentially. And if you grow up in a, you know, hearing a lot of negative messages about yourself, possibly from people around you,
09:13
it might be much harder. might be a lot more work. It might require more therapy or something to get to the point where you can feel that authenticity. might feel like it's a survival strategy to have to pretend. Yeah. Yeah. Put that mask on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And, know, I think this is related. It's the thought that just popped in my head, but I often have leaders ask, you know, what should we do when our staff
09:41
admit that they are struggling with some of these thoughts and feelings. I'm like, tell them that you do too. I mean, don't lie if you don't, but I think the best thing any of us can do is to just talk about this because if the research is saying most of us experience it at some point in our lives, then when we sort of confess that we're feeling this way, the fears that the person on the receiving end is going to go, oh my God, you're a fraud, you're fired, or you're kicked out of my friend group or whatever it is.
10:10
when really what happens, oh my gosh, really? I had no idea. You seem like you have it all together. I'm shocked. Me too. I have the same struggles. And we don't say anything, because we're afraid that means we'll be revealed for the fraud we think we are, when in reality, you really do realize in an experiential way that this is just a normal human experience. And in the same way, we wouldn't want to get rid of a skunk's smell, and we really couldn't. And if we did, it would die.
10:38
We don't need to focus on battling against these thoughts and feelings. Like to me, the biggest mistake in like the resources that are available, well, up until my book, but you the resources that have been available are about trying to strong arm this, build confidence and build self-esteem and convince yourself you're awesome and you're not a fraud. And if you're able to do that, fabulous, like all the power to you. I've never been able to do it. And most people I talked to have not been able to do it.
11:07
And so good like that can actually be kind of a relief because you can give up that struggle and instead like understand this is just normal, like the skunk in their smell or the chameleon and they're changing colors. And it's not about getting rid of it. It's about understanding what it's trying to do for you, that that inner voice is trying to protect you from failure, from humiliation, from rejection, know, breaking up those bonds, but you don't have to listen.
11:37
You know, you can, as we talked about in our first episode, you know, you can let your values really be your guide. You can choose to show up and do what matters to you to pursue the goals that you want to pursue. Even if you might have to do it and the presence of a voice saying you have no business doing it. You know, I was thinking about, I can't remember exactly what the phrase is, but I feel like there's a, you know, often when someone's
12:04
public speaking, there's like a phrase that they say at the beginning, just to sort of name what you're talking about, to sort of say like, I just want to say I'm terrified to be up here, it's public speaking right now. And it's sort of like, once you like are honest and authentic about it and say it out loud, then it doesn't feel as like as much pressure after that. Yeah, you it's like the those thoughts don't have as much power. And I kind of think of that as an act, we would call it diffusion, which is like unhooking from these thoughts. So
12:33
You can observe the thoughts and be aware of the thoughts or the feelings, you know, whatever it is, but sort of like get some distance from them. Like they don't have to be truths with a capital T. They don't have to dictate your behavior. You can have the thoughts and you know, choose to act differently so you can be nervous and scared. You're going to flop on stage and.
12:54
you can get up there and acknowledging that those thoughts and feelings are even there is a way to get a little distance, a little space. And in that space, you can make a different choice that's not driven by the fear of the thoughts. Another thing I love about how you're saying this is like a normal part of the human experience is like, I don't know if it's from our society or from, you know, lot of people in particular families, there's this culture of perfectionism. Like you have to
13:24
be perfect in the world. And that is just not true about the human experience. Nobody's capable of that. And people put so much pressure on themselves. I think it's part of what I hear you saying is normalizing the experience of like, you are going to be afraid. You are going to be sad. You are going to struggle sometimes. You are going to make mistakes. And that's OK. That doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong as a human being.
13:53
Yeah, I often give the example of like, if you think about, think about like the last time you were, you were laying awake in bed at two in the morning with the wheels spinning, right? You're worrying about something. It's, you're probably not worrying about like the Game of Thrones isn't coming back for another season, even if it was your favorite show ever, right? You're worrying about your family, competence at work, your health, the state of the world. You worry about things you care about.
14:22
Or I often tell the story and I keep having all these intrusive thoughts like, did we already talk about this in the last episode? I don't remember what we talked about. often give this example when I do talks about this stuff where, know, the phrase it's just like riding a bike to me and you can get back to doing something after you haven't done it for a while without needing any practice. Well, I got back on a literal bike after not riding a bike for 10 years and I immediately crashed. And so for me, riding a bike was not just like riding a bike, but the point is
14:52
I spent exactly zero seconds worrying about this crash. I didn't get hurt. know, nobody was there to see it. So I wasn't embarrassed. I didn't worry about it all. But this crash made me start thinking about how my kids were eight and 10 at the time. And they still didn't know how to ride a bike and what a horrible mother I must be because how could I let my kids get to such old ages and not have taught them how to ride a bike? And all the other kids in the neighborhood have been riding bikes since they were four or five. I'm a terrible mother. And if you look at
15:21
the worry versus the non-worry, it's a bright red neon arrow pointing at what I care about. I do not care at all about my ability to pedal a two-wheeled machine, but I care deeply about being a good mom. And so if people, like if listeners think about like, what's keeping you up, what are you worrying about perseverating on? It's the things you care about. And so when you're and where imposterism shows up is
15:50
When you're doing something challenging that you care about doing well, it would be utterly ridiculous to think you should be able to do that without any concern. Right? Like the only way to do it without any concern is if you don't really care that much about it. Right. Yeah. I heard this analogy one time, like, if your six month old child can't walk yet, are you stressing about it?
16:19
Or even like they start growing up and then they're 12 months and they're still not walking yet, which is probably about the time most kids are able to walk at that point. But it's like, no, you're just sort of like, they're going to walk when they're ready. It's sort of like they're going to continue developing and growing when, you it's like you still hold the belief and the expectation that this is going to happen. And you're just sort of patient with the process.
16:47
But I don't think we give ourselves the same kind of patience or space oftentimes like you're talking about. If you want to be a good bike rider, you can do it, but you have to go through that process. You got to fall down maybe a couple of times before you're going to be ready to feel like an expert biker. Right. And if I wanted to become an expert biker, then I would probably be feeling worried and not confident about my ability to ride a bike if I kept falling down.
17:17
That the confidence piece is directly related to how much something matters. know, Steve Hayes, the developer of Act says we hurt where we care and lots of other people have made comments like this in the past too. And I want to extend the baby walking thing. I just interviewed Sean Costello, Woolley and Holly Yates on Psychologist's Up the Clock. They have a book out about the inner critic and Holly was saying we were talking, I think about self compassion and.
17:45
She was saying, you know, if a baby was just learning to walk, like, let's say that 12 month old or 14 month old is, know, finally 14, 15 months, they're finally getting to walk when they're falling down. You're not going to go, you stupid baby. Right. Yeah, but, that's what we do to ourselves, right? Like when we perform in ways that are less than perfect, we're so quick to say, you suck. You're so stupid. How could you have been so bad at that? But like, especially if it's something that
18:13
You're still a skill you're still developing something you're newer at. And of course this imposter stuff does tend to show up in those places. You know, you'd never say you stupid baby. You'd be kind and encouraging. And all the research shows that when we use our own kind, encouraging, self-compassionate coaching voice, rather than that self-critical voice, the outcomes are actually far better across the board. Yeah. Yeah. I love what you're saying. And even if it is about learning
18:42
to ride a bike or, you know, learning to play an instrument or, know, something that's not critical to our survival, let's say. Oftentimes, we do build up that meaning about it. You know, if we're feeling stress or if we're feeling like the self criticism, is like you said something like, it's not about riding a bike, it's about not being a good mom, right? So often, it like, there's much deeper themes at the heart of
19:12
that and do you have ways of helping people sort of like connect to that? Like they may consciously think it's about riding a bike, but do you, you know, are there questions that you ask in act where you kind of help people get to the core themes for them? Some of those deeper meanings? That's a great question. I don't really have any sort of like trick.
19:34
questions. It's more just like when you look at this, whatever this thing was that was difficult for you that upset you that was hard for you that we were you held anxious. What do you think that tells you about what matters to you? Yeah, you know, now, like I can think of an example that I think is a little tricky, where I might have someone who is upset, like say about their appearance. You know, if they think that they're too
20:00
thin, too fat, not muscly enough, not pretty or handsome enough, whatever. And you know, like, what does that tell you about what you care about? It's not that they care that much about their appearance. You know, it's not like, oh, I'm super vain and I want to be gorgeous. It's I care what other people think. I'm worried I'm going to be judged. And why does that matter? And lots of people be like, why do I care what other people think? I shouldn't care what other people think. I need to stop. I'm like, no.
20:29
I actually think that makes complete sense because it hearkens back to what we were just talking about, about human beings and connections and bonds. And it is the most robust predictor of our everything basically. So of course you care what other people think. You are evolutionarily programmed to care what other people think. And many of our concerns do boil down to that. Why do you care if you perform well? Well, I care about being competent.
20:58
I care about sharing whatever my message is in an effective way, in an accessible way. And I care what other people think about me because I care about my connections with other humans. So it's not that hard to get at it, you know, if you just kind of have a conversation around it, people can be, they're like, Oh yeah, I see it. see it. definitely. Just, just holding space for that. Like being like sort of just helping them move into their curiosity about
21:27
what it's connected to. But I'm curious about what you were just saying. If I feel insecure about my appearance, where do you go with that next? if I feel like I want to have better performance or something in whatever area, I feel like maybe there's a healthy way of approaching that and a not so healthy way of approaching that.
21:55
So I have this concept I talk about in the book that I call the gap trap. And it's basically where people stay trapped in stagnation, like not moving forward in some way due to a perceived gap in skill or knowledge or expertise or confidence or feeling ready, whatever it may be. And they believe they have to fill the gap before they move forward, which of course is the trap.
22:22
And so, you for me, what all of this boils down to, it's like getting comfortable being uncomfortable. It's understanding that if you are doing something challenging that you care about, you are going to have some discomfort and that is normal. It is not a sign that you are supposed to flee. It is a sign that you are exactly where you're meant to be. The sort of solution isn't to find a cure to your discomfort.
22:48
It's to increase your willingness to move forward with the things you care about in your life, whether it's work or family or anything else, even if it means doing that in the presence of pain. And I get like that is so much easier said than done. But as I think we talked about in the last episode, there are loads of ways to practice getting comfortable being uncomfortable. And then you get better at being able to do it in more challenging kinds of situations.
23:16
Well, I encourage people to basically just use their senses. Look at things you don't like looking at. You know, for me, that might be like feet or puss. you know, we've all like anybody who has access to the internet can find images of just about anything. Listen to sounds you don't like. So when I'm meeting with clients, I'm often having having them listen to mouth sounds because humans seem to really dislike mouth sounds or sirens or babies crying or nails on a chalkboard or music. You can't stand.
23:45
And you do it mindfully and you do it willingly. So like you're doing it in a way where you're letting go of resistance. You're being receptive. You're just having letting the experience be what it is without judgment. You can do lots of tactile practices. So even like I'm wearing a watch right now, if I take my watch on, taking my watch off and putting it on my other hand that I don't normally wear it on, it's very hard for me to clip it. So I'm noticing that challenge.
24:13
Now it feels heavy and awkward and I don't like it. I'm noticing how much I wanna take it off and put it back on the quote unquote right hand. And I'm just gonna sit and open and allow. Sometimes I have glasses on right now. If I have a client with glasses, we'll wear our glasses upside down for a bit. It feels uncomfortable on your face. If your prescription isn't the same in both eyes, you can't see very well and you feel a little embarrassed because you look silly.
24:40
And so it gives you an opportunity to practice lots of levels of discomfort. You could put your shoes on the wrong feet. And what ultimately happens is, you know, I'll keep my watch on this hand for the duration of our interview. And by the end, I won't even remember that it's there. And I often give people a mantra when they're practicing getting comfortable, being uncomfortable is to say, it's five parts. It's, this is uncomfortable, you know, acknowledge like this isn't.
25:06
like the power of positive thinking, this is awesome. Like this is uncomfortable, but it's just a feeling. It's not dangerous. It's temporary and I can handle it. And all of those things are true. Now, if you don't do any of this practice and then you think you can say those things to yourself in the middle of a panic attack, you're gonna fail, right? That's like trying to climb Mount Everest when you've never even walked around your block before. And so these senses practices,
25:34
are ways to kind of train your willingness muscle to strengthen your ability to sit with the discomfort. So when you are feeling anxious about performing at work, when your mind is saying you're a fraud, any minute everyone's going to figure out you have no business doing what you're doing, you know how to make space for all of that discomfort and move forward. many of those things feel doable.
25:59
you know, like we could leave this conversation and I could take five minutes to try to do some of those things. I do it all the time and I've been practicing this in my own life for over 20 years. Building a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance.
26:26
When you join ALMA, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment. Plus, when you join ALMA, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. ALMA helps you spend less time on administrative work
26:54
and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com backslash ATP or click the link in the show notes to learn more. That's a good stepping stone for, you I'm imagining some bigger things like things people do like, Oh, I want to write a book, but I'm going to get a college degree before I, I need to get a college degree before I start writing my book. Right. Or, you know, I want to start a podcast. So I'm going to
27:24
you know, people do research for two and a half years before they start, you know, their podcast. That's gap trap. Yeah. Well, let's talk about, so there are these, this is a good segue because there are these like five different kind, they're kind of subtypes of imposter, but it's basically five different ways that people attempt to basically avoid confronting the truth that they, that, you know, the truth that they are a fraud. And this is based on the work of Valerie Young.
27:53
And so they're basically compensatory strategies. And so they're the expert, the perfectionist, the soloist, the superhuman, and the natural genius. And so the perfectionist, self-explanatory, believes that everything has to be perfect, highest standards, and if I make a mistake, that proves I'm a fraud. The expert, and this is what you were just talking about with get the degree first and study for two and a half years before I podcast.
28:22
The expert is the person who thinks, just need one more class, listen to one more podcast, read one more book, and then I'll move forward. Like I just need to get more of that expertise. And I always get this image of a cup where you're pouring water into it, but there's a hole in the bottom. So it never gets topped off. It's never enough. Like a moving goalpost kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Like once you read the next book, there's always like something else that you haven't done yet that you have to do. Yes, exactly.
28:50
The soloist is the person who believes you're only competent. If accomplishments are done alone, so if you have to ask for help or work as a team, then it proves you're a fraud, quote unquote. The natural genius is the person who like either you get it or you don't. Like you should be able to read something once and understand it. Like that intelligence is innate. It's kind of like Carol Dweck's fixed mindset versus growth mindset. So it's like fixed mindset.
29:15
And if something is difficult for you or you don't get it really easily, this proves you're a fraud. And then the superhuman, always get the image of someone who's like riding a unicycle, juggling flaming balls in the air with a smile on their face, like doing a thousand things. You know, if one of those balls falls, that proves that they're a fraud. And even when they're like doing all the things well, they still don't usually feel good enough because they think, you know, if I were truly competent.
29:42
I should be able to balance plates spinning on my nose too. And so those are those kind of five subtypes. And so once you know what yours is, it becomes much easier to spot like, oh my gosh, I'm totally doing that thing where I'm signing up for another class. And there's nothing wrong with personal and professional development and learning. I'm a lifelong learner, but the expert tends to sacrifice doing.
30:11
So if you're learning, but you're also doing that spine. And so maybe to tell yourself like, I don't need to know everything. I just need to know enough to do this particular thing, whatever that thing is. And I think it's important to know too, the research shows that, we think this is what got me interested in the topic. You would think that you can outrun it, that like once your portfolio is impressive enough, you'll finally feel confident and legitimate. And the opposite is true.
30:39
these imposter thoughts and feelings are actually positively correlated with success. And we think that's because the higher you climb, the more is expected of you. And now you have a reputation to defend. You know, it's like the Oscar winner who's like, oh no, now I always have to be that good. And so like the pressure is even higher. And so if people want to find out their subtype, I actually have a quiz on my website. So you can go to jillstotter.com slash quizzes.
31:07
and find out what percentage you are of expert soloist, natural genius, perfectionist, et cetera. Yeah, that would be really helpful. I feel like so much of this is about taking action, the discomfort of doing something imperfectly and just diving in. There's another quote that's like, the most successful people are the ones who have failed the most or who are willing to fail the most because they just keep taking chances. There's something else that happens
31:37
that I've noticed where if I have a deadline for something, like that's the most important thing I need to accomplish, then all of a sudden, like I get really good at cleaning my house or like making sure my email's all caught up or like, it's almost like an unconscious thing. Like I know I should be writing this article or something, but I start doing everything else and feel like, oh, I just haven't had time to get to it yet.
32:05
Well, and that works, right? mean, everything we do or don't do has a function. It works or we wouldn't do it. And so really, you're just describing procrastination. We can probably all agree that procrastination isn't typically helpful. And yet we all do it. Why do we do it? Because when you're feeling dread or anxiety or whatever it is about doing a thing and you give yourself permission to put it off, what do you get? Relief. Right. So like it works.
32:33
It's really, and it's especially works if you're doing other productive things, you're like, well, at least I'm cleaning and doing these other things. I'm not just sitting on the sofa watching TV, but of course now tomorrow you have the same amount of work to do and less time to do it. And so the feelings that you were avoiding yesterday are now double today. So, you know, most of our avoidance strategies work in the short term, but of course maintain the problem and often makes make things worse in the longterm. And so it's not about
33:02
I need to get excited about this task in order to do it, it's I need to be willing to do it even in the presence of discomfort. I mean, if we wait until we feel like it, we're probably never gonna do it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I wanna shift gears a little bit, because I'm thinking about relationship stuff. Because one of the things I see in couples therapy a lot that I think is about imposter syndrome is like...
33:29
I think it's connected to people having a really hard time listening to their partner. So if their partner says, you know, I felt really hurt by what you said the other day. A lot of times the other person, think again, here's where I think it's imposter syndrome. It's like they feel bad because they would never intend to do something to hurt their partner. And so they feel like, let me explain to you why you shouldn't feel hurt by what I did the other day.
33:57
Oh, you know, so they get defensive or they minimize the experience of the other person or invalidate it. And it's really their own self protection of like, I don't want you to see me as someone who would want to hurt you. All right. So it's coming from a good place, but it makes it very hard for them to stay present with their partner and validate the partner's experience and be able to say, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I was hurtful. I definitely make mistakes sometimes.
34:24
And I was just thinking about like, I see that in relationships a lot. Yeah, that's really interesting. I've never thought about it in quite that way. But I see what you're saying. It's this like, fear of the mask being removed, and I don't want you to see my flaws. So it might not be I'm afraid you're that I'll be exposed as a fraud. But I guess in a way, it's like, Oh, no, you'll see that I'm not a perfect partner. I'm not a perfect spouse that like, you know, that really underneath, there's all these
34:53
warts and moles and imperfections. Right. Yeah, I can see that. So they may not consciously be thinking, oh my God, I'm an imposter in this relationship, but almost more like subconsciously acting in ways to protect themselves from being revealed as less than in some way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And would you say, I mean, you can speak to other things that you think about in relationships like regarding imposter syndrome, but I mean, would you say that
35:24
The alternative is openness and intimacy and connection or vulnerability. Maybe I would be a good word. It's like, yeah. mean, and I think when you, when, when you consider like the whole idea of even just getting comfortable being uncomfortable, what is discomfort? I mean, so often it's some form of vulnerability, like unless we're talking about physical discomfort, but I think when we're talking about emotional discomfort,
35:52
You know, we can feel anxious, we can feel sad, all the things, but underneath all of that, like, why does that feel so bad? You know, I think it is that underneath a lot of that is vulnerability and the root of the word vulnerable means woundable. You know, it's like when I opened the vest, if I kind of let you in, if I let you see the warts or the sad or the anxious or whatever it may be, or whatever it is I'm anxious about comes out, then I'm opening myself up to be wounded.
36:22
And that's vulnerability. Yeah, and I talk about I don't know what you think about this I talk about personal empowerment a lot like like especially thinking about maybe the beginning phases of a relationship You know that I don't Want to be dependent on whether this person loves me or not for me to feel like I'm enough, right? And I mean, I think that's true in all phases of relationship even if you've been with someone for 30 years, but
36:48
Yeah, I to think of it as like independence, interdependence and dependence and interdependence is what we want. If you're entirely independent in a relationship, that's not going to work. If you're entirely dependent, that's not going to work. But if you're interdependent where, you know, you can both rely on yourself and your partner and your partner can rely on themselves and you, that to me feels like that kind of happy medium. Yeah. And I, and I feel like so much of this is about the meaning
37:18
that people bring to the other person's reaction or the other person's perspective. If I become vulnerable and talk about how I'm not perfect and how I'm struggling, my partner could reject me. what would be the meaning of that? And like you said, connected to
37:45
are, you know, 20,000 years ago, if you were rejected by the tribe, you know, the meaning would be that you didn't survive. And I think we still have a lot of that wiring for connection with others. Yeah, without question. And the science backs that up. That's very, I mean, that's true. It's funny, like in all the years that I've been working as a clinical psychologist, it's only been in the last, I don't know, decade, maybe even less, probably less that
38:13
Of course, I'm still doing all of the techniques and the things that we learn to do as therapists, but I've also become more likely to talk to clients about their social relationship, you know, their social relationships, their romantic relationships, even if that's not their presenting problem. So I have a clinic in California that's an anxiety clinic that's Center for Stress and Anxiety Management, and we don't do any couples therapy.
38:39
We don't do any family therapy. We treat individuals with primary anxiety disorders. And so a lot of times these topics don't come up, but it's something that I've started to incorporate a lot more knowing that like, you know, we can do all the techniques for your panic attacks, but if you don't have any relationships in your life, like you're kind of doomed. Like with that needs to be an important focus of.
39:05
living a well-rounded, psychologically healthy life. And, you know, of course the same goes for sleep and movement and getting outside in the sun. You know, a lot of the stuff that goes back to cave people, you know? Yeah, totally. Yeah, I love that because I think that's something that's missing for a lot of people in our modern society. Exactly. But yeah, especially as we rely more and more on technology where there's this like illusion of connection that isn't really real.
39:35
Yeah, that's really interesting too. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm biased because I come, my background is in systemic family therapy. And like, think even, yeah, when I'm doing individual therapy, it's absolute, like their issues are absolutely connected to the relationships in their life. And I'm not saying that people have to be in a relationship. That's not what I mean, but how they're making meaning about what's going on in the, all of the different types of relationships in their life. Yeah.
40:05
Yeah, but that's cool. I think that's helpful. And I think that I've been reading Gabor Mate lately, and he talks a lot about drug addiction being a relational issue. It's a substitute for having the healthy coping things that you get from being in a healthy, safe relationship or things like that. And it's very interesting to look at.
40:35
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I can totally see that. Any other thoughts from your perspective, just thinking about imposter syndrome as it relates to people having a healthier relationship or people who might be struggling to have a healthy relationship and feeling like the imposter syndrome might be a big part of that? I mean, I don't know that there's anything groundbreaking beyond what we've already said.
41:03
If having a relationship matters to you, if it's important to you, and no one's given you a doctoral degree in relationship expert, right? Because that doesn't actually exist. I mean, I guess it sort of does when you get a psychology degree and you can be a relationship expert. like, all of us are just trying to figure this out. And a relationship with one person is going to look very different than a relationship with another. So even if you have all the facts and skills and knowledge and you've taken communication classes,
41:33
you're still starting fresh with a new person, right? And so I think like, of course, there's going to be some worry and anxiety because it's important to you, you care about it, and you're not an expert, like no one is an expert. And the stakes are high, you know, the threat of losing that thing that you care so much about. This is a situation that just breeds that kind of can breed that kind of insecurity. And that's okay. It's normal. The key is like,
42:03
Don't let the anxiety and insecurity drive behavior. Let your values drive your behavior. What kind of partner do you wanna be? What kind of human do you wanna be? know, an example that comes to mind is if someone, let's say someone is like jealous or possessive, well, that's a fear of abandonment, right? Or I'm afraid you're gonna cheat on me. I'm afraid you're gonna hurt me. I'm afraid you're gonna abandon me. And so what might I do to feel better?
42:31
I'm going to secretly check your text when you're in the shower. I'm going to drive by the library to make sure your car is there because you said that's where you're going to be. I'm going to reassurance seek. Are you sure we're cool? Are you sure you love me? And just like procrastination, all of those things work in the short term because you get relief. But just like with all avoidance behaviors, most of the stuff we do actually creates the exact outcome we're trying to avoid. So you're trying to avoid being abandoned. But if you're being super possessive,
43:00
What's going to happen? You're going to get dumped eventually. Right. And then that reinforces all of that insecurity. so that relief you get in the short term is actually blowing everything up and making your fears come true. And so what can you do instead? You got to change your relationship to those thoughts and feelings. Understand it makes sense. These are here because I care about this. The stakes feel high. Probably, you know, if it's like someone may have some
43:30
Issues in their learning history, attachment, relationships with parents, previous romantic relationships, whatever it may be, it all influences us. So knowing like this makes sense that I feel this way and I don't need to let these thoughts and feelings be in the driver's seat. I can feel scared and insecure and I can choose to let my partner have their privacy. I can feel scared to trust. And choose to take that leap of faith anyway.
44:00
Might I get burned in the long run? Sure, but no relationship is a guarantee. It's all just one big leap of faith. And I think what's really challenging about that is it means there's a lot of uncertainty. And also evolutionarily, humans don't like uncertainty. Uncertainty often meant death back in the early human days. And so we work really hard to undo certainty.
44:26
And that works in the short term if you can get the answer, but it often backfires. And so the key is really, can I sit and make space? This is uncomfortable, but it's just a feeling. It's temporary. It's not dangerous. And I can handle it. Bring that to those feelings of uncertainty. Bring that to those feelings of insecurity and show up in that relationship as the me you want to be. And it's going to be a much healthier relationship. Doesn't mean it's definitely going to work out.
44:54
but it's gonna have a much better chance. Yeah, that to me is the best answer, right? Like, because you take control over your own reality and your own perspective. I think it goes back to our previous conversation, you know, when you were talking all about ACT and the strategies for people to use, because when I'm feeling that, if someone's feeling that stress in their relationship, you know, part of what you're saying is that...
45:23
It's much more about turning inward about how I'm feeling, what I'm thinking, how I'm making meaning about what's going on in the situation instead of figuring out whether my partners, whether they say they were going to be or not. So I think that's great. And like you said, I totally agree, right? The more each partner takes care of themselves and isn't
45:52
bringing that anxious energy to the relationship, the more it's going to feel healthy for both people. Yeah, absolutely. And then you learn by experience. So every time you check the text or do the drive-by or the reassurance seeking, you're essentially teaching yourself that the only way to handle that distress, the only way to feel better is to engage in this behavior. It becomes reinforcing. And it feels like the only reason things are okay is because you keep checking.
46:22
If you change the behavior, then you learn, you get out of your head and your assumptions and your predictions and you can look at your experience like, Oh, everything's fine. I don't need to do these things and we're okay. You know, it's, it's maybe an easier example is like, if you think about, if someone is afraid of heights, what they, what they're afraid of is they're going to be up high and they're either going to fall or they're going to have an urge to fling themselves over the railing, have an impulse that they unwanted.
46:52
And you know, so if we go hang out on a tall building a bunch of times, they learn through experience, oh, this bad thing I think is going to happen doesn't happen. Therefore, this is safe, right? It's that we know that this is how new learning takes place. If that person is like holding onto the wall for dear life the whole time, you can do that 1000 times and you're not going to learn that it's safe because when you come down, you're saying, well, yeah, I didn't fall or jump, but that's because I was holding on. If I had let go.
47:21
then forget it, I would have fallen off. So like the importance of really leaning into your fear without engaging in these like safety behaviors to try to feel better or prevent some feared outcome is really the way to learn, oh, I can give this talk or I can be in this relationship or whatever it is, I can do a podcast or write a book and it won't be perfect and I will make mistakes, but that's okay.
47:49
The bad thing I think is going to happen almost never happens, but even when it does, it's not as bad as I think and I can handle it. And you can't learn that by thinking. You learn that by doing. That's so, uh, I was just thinking, I think that there's, I need to think about this more because when you're talking, when you're describing, like hanging onto the wall to feel safe about being up high, you know, I think there's some connection between that and.
48:17
the negative couple dynamics that oftentimes it exists in every, every couple has their own sort of, you know, losing strategies or dynamic that keep playing out again and again. And I feel like that's, uh, you know, analogous to holding onto the wall where I think that I'm creating some kind of safety for myself, but it's actually, it's actually, you know, my inability to step into the discomfort and try something different, uh, which probably feels really vulnerable.
48:48
Totally. And I think in most situations with couples, the things we're doing are often to avoid feeling vulnerable. And that might feel safe and that might feel like I have control or certainty in the moment, but relationships can't flourish without vulnerability. simply can't. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Well, I know we have to wrap it up for today. I'm so glad that we were able to connect again.
49:14
and follow up with this stuff. This is a great conversation again. Can you mention your podcast and if you want your book again or in your website, wherever people can find out more about you? Yep. People can find me at jillstotter.com. My books are there. My podcast is there. What else do I do? If you want me to come speak for your organization, mean, pretty much everything is there. The podcast is Psychologists Off the Clock. Yeah, that's it. Great.
49:43
Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you again, Jill. And maybe we'll have to catch up again at some point in the future. That would be great. Thanks so much, Shane. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP or click on the link in the show notes to learn more.
50:09
Thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody!