247: Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) with Dr. Jill Stoddard

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Jill Stoddard about Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT). Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 247: Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) with Dr. Jill Stoddard

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In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Jill Stoddard about Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT). Jill is a Speaker, Author, Podcaster, Psychologist, and Coach on Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. Hear what ACT is, how to help your clients be their authentic selves, how to practice being uncomfortable, how to give your clients clarity on their thoughts, and how to focus on your message & serving others. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

• What is Acceptance and Commitment Therapy?
• Why what we fear is what we hold most dear
• Implementing de-fusion and self as context
• Exercise: Building willingness muscles
• What is the Gap Trap?

To learn more about Dr. Jill Stoddard, her books, her podcast, and her Substack, visit:

JillStoddard.com

Dr. Jill Stoddard on LinkedIn

 Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

• 247: Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) with Dr. Jill Stoddard

• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [1:11] Welcome Dr. Jill Stoddard!
• [4:07] The 400th episode of Psychologists Off the Clock
• [6:36] What is Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT)?
• [9:55] When pain avoidance goes too far...
• [12:25] Get comfortable being uncomfortable
• [15:12] The place that you worry is the place that you care
• [18:06] How to interpret triggers when interacting with strangers
• [21:45] Implementing de-fusion and self as context
• [24:38] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [25:28] How to get clarity on your values?
• [27:53] How Dr. Stoddard wrote the The Big Book of ACT Metaphors 
• [29:13] Exercise: think about what your gravestone would say
• [31:29] Exercise: perspective taking
• [32:47] The Gap Trap
• [35:22] Exercise: Building willingness muscles
• [38:10] Practicing and expanding the ability to being uncomfortable
• [41:22] We can't really control outcomes
• [43:51] What is Shane's greatest goal for his kids?
• [45:27] Tying in Imposter Syndrome
• [47:07] How leaders can support their teams dealing with imposter syndrome
• [50:57] Keep your Why close by -- psychologically flexible choices
• [52:27] Check out Dr. Stoddard's website to stay connected! 
• [53:54] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

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Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
What a jerk that person was to cut me in the grocery store line. I should beat him up and teach him a lesson.

00:12
to the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Birkel.

00:28
Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

00:58
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone, welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel. And today I'm speaking with Dr. Jill Stoddard, author, psychologist, podcaster, and speaker on acceptance and commitment therapy. Hey Jill, welcome to the show. Hey Shane, thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

01:25
Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited to talk about ACT and hopefully we can get into imposter syndrome as well. But why don't you start by telling everyone a little bit more about yourself? Well, you pretty much said it all right there in that one sentence. I have a practice in California, the Center for Stress and Anxiety Management, where we do all ACT and CBT.

01:47
Um, and so I'm actually in Massachusetts. You and I discovered where we live only about 40 minutes away from each other. Yeah, that's right. I run my, yeah, I was, I was out in San Diego for about 25 years. So we moved back home, quote unquote, to Massachusetts, like two years ago. So I run the clinic from here. I see clients there virtually cause that's where I'm licensed. And then I also do some coaching. do health coaching as well as some professional coaching. Typically people want to come talk to me about.

02:14
imposter phenomenon when that's getting in the way of their professional ambitions. And the podcast, probably very similar to yours, is Psychologists Off the Clock. So we also do interviews with experts in psychology about, gosh, like all sorts of different science-backed ideas with the hopes that will help listeners flourish in their relationships and their work and their health.

02:39
And then the thing that I'm doing probably the most, I do have three books and we can talk about those if you want, the most, they're all based on acceptance commitment therapy. And the most recent is about the imposter phenomenon. And then the thing I'm doing most, or really I should say trying to do more of is public speaking. So I've done loads of training of mental health professionals, typically in ACT and then also in CBT and exposure therapy. And now I'm trying to do a little bit more of that.

03:09
with the public. And I would say the reason for that is, of course, I started as a therapist doing predominantly clinical work and just sort of recognizing that not everyone has the resources or maybe time or desire to participate in therapy. It felt like really important to me to be able to share these ideas, like to make the ideas accessible to everybody. so, know, podcasts are free and books are cheap. And typically if I'm doing talks,

03:36
there's a company, an organization that's paying for it and the people that are attending are not. that's, all of the other hats outside of therapy is just trying to make these act and psychological flexibility skills available to as many people as I can. Yeah, that's amazing. And you were just telling me before we started recording that you're getting ready for episode 400.

03:59
You're almost yes, we recorded it. Yeah, we just recorded episode 400. So we have your you you are running your podcast all by yourself. It is so much work. There are five of us. So I only do you know, about one episode a month. You know, it's a weekly podcast, but we we all rotate and take turns. And so the podcast been around, I think we're around eight years. And I've been with the show for five years at this point. Yeah. And yeah, 400 coming up. Super cool.

04:27
Yeah, and that's great. like the way you said that as far, you know, with the podcast, with writing the books, with public speaking, it's just, you know, the ability to try to get the message out to as many people as possible and try to help people. even if, you know, I know that the cost of therapy can be prohibitive for a lot of people. So even if that that's the case, you know, they can access this information and get some of the help that they need possibly. Exactly right. Yeah. And you and I just met

04:56
unexpectedly, we were both at the psychotherapy network or conference in DC and happened to bump into each other. And that's another way. It was so cool. I was like, wait, I know you, I'm coming on your podcast. And, you know that, I don't know, you'll have to tell me if you did this, but I, I saw several of the people we've already had on the podcast. And then I basically stocked some people I really wanted to have on the podcast and got some commitments from some.

05:24
Exciting people like David Kessler and Romany. Oh, yes. Yes. Oh gosh. I'm blanking on her last night. She calls herself. Dr. Romany. Yeah, Dr. Romany. Yeah, exactly. stuff like that. Yeah. She's great. Yeah. So they're going to come on. I can't remember who else, but I got to see. I saw Gibson. We had her on. Yeah, was great. Yeah. Yeah. Same thing. There were a few people that came up to my booth and then I went up to a couple people.

05:54
But Dr. Romany, I've emailed her a bunch of times to try to get her on the podcast. And I think she's, you know, she's probably gets tons of those requests and she's such a big deal in my mind. And I saw her and I was just like, I was too nervous to go talk to her at the conference. It's funny. We're such nerds. Like I swear I get more nervous talking to book authors and people in our field than I would if I like saw Brad Pitt on the street.

06:21
Yeah. Yeah. Hashtag famous people only therapists would recognize. Exactly. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. So why don't you start by telling everyone a little bit, know, just starting, you know, by telling us what is acceptance and commitment therapy. I guess I was going to say also about imposter syndrome, but one thing at a time, maybe. Take it one at a I'm sure we can do that. Well, besides it being my most favorite thing to talk about.

06:47
Acceptance and commitment therapy, is ACT for short, not ACT. So you got to transition that from this point forward. Or then you do look like an imposter. So ACT, essentially ACT, it has one goal, one main goal, and that is to cultivate psychological flexibility. And all that means is our ability to be in the present moment.

07:11
Aware of an open to all of our internal experiences. So thoughts, emotions, physical feelings, urges, the whole nine yards fully and without defense. So we're not doing anything to push it away or grab onto it. You know, we're not trying to control it. We're just allowing it to be present in whatever form it is present in. And then making conscious, deliberate choices to show up in ways that are consistent with our values.

07:38
And so values, of course, I mean, you people use that word in different ways, but in act, we're really talking about the qualities that you embody as you walk through the world. So it's partly what you do, but really it's more about how you do it. So qualities would be things like compassionate, present, kind, assertive. So it's like who you are as you navigate.

08:01
The world and and you know the things that you choose to do and that's it and so then the way that we cultivate psychological flexibility is essentially through six core processes. And it is present moment awareness, which is essentially mindfulness and that's in that definition of psychological flexibility because you're aware of your. Thoughts and feelings in that moment. It is acceptance also called willingness, but of course that's the A and act and I.

08:30
usually shorthand this with people is it just means getting comfortable being uncomfortable. That's what that is. There's diffusion, which is actually spelled D-E-F-U-S-I-O-N as opposed to diffusion, like you're diffusing a bomb. And it's a made up word for act. And it is essentially the process of stepping back and observing your thoughts, treating your thoughts. so if you're fused with your thoughts, you're like stuck, you're hooked, you're sort of seeing the world from.

08:58
your thoughts and D fusion is sort of stepping back and seeing the world like looking at your thoughts. So it's that kind of like detachment. It's like observing with a dispassionate curiosity. I sometimes think of it like being an anthropologist and then there is self as context or the observer self and this is kind of related to diffusion. But it's like this idea that

09:24
While I have thoughts and feelings and roles and urges, I am also separate from them. There's values, which we already talked about, and then committed action, which is just walking the talk. It's doing the thing that is consistent with your values. And so that's really what the therapy is focused on is kind of building those mindfulness and willingness and diffusion muscles so that you can live your life in accordance with your values. Yeah, that's great. And I'm thinking about

09:53
how, you know, when I get caught up in the moment, you know, let's say with my wife or something like that, and it feels stressful and I feel hurt, you know, where those would be the times where I might say something I regret. And in those moments, I'm not being conscious. I'm not living with my authentic values that I want to have in the moment. I'm not making decisions that I've committed to.

10:21
that are in accordance with my values. So it's interesting. I think that what you're talking about just makes me think about how important that is for all of us. There's that part of us within all of us that can kind of come in if we're feeling hurt or protective, where we move away from the things that you're talking about in this. That's right. What comes to mind for me when you describe that exact scenario is you're reacting on autopilot. We feel discomfort.

10:48
And we want to move away from it. And that makes sense in certain contexts. If you put your hand on a hot stove, you want to move your hand away. That pain is signaling you should avoid. And that is helpful because you avoid a dangerous burn. But we tend to use that same strategy in our emotional world, which means we say things we regret to our partners or we procrastinate or we say no to opportunities, even if they're like in our career, even if they're important or we don't go to the party because we're scared, even though

11:18
you know, social connection is something that matters to us. And I tell this story a lot, but I was asked to do this talk. I do this talk every year for an amazing organization called Kyle Cares. And it's basically like bringing in teens to create mental health awareness and support and things like that in their high schools. And so they do this conference every year. So I was asked to talk and they said, what we really want is for you to give these kids something

11:46
concrete, like something actionable that they can take away that will improve their mental health and reduce their vulnerability to suicide. And you have 30 minutes or 35 minutes, something like that. And I was like, okay, easy peasy. You know, it like quite the tall order.

12:06
But after I had that initial, like, what reaction, I thought, no, you know what? I know exactly what it would be. Because honestly, if I could teach every human on the planet how to do one thing more skillfully, it would be to get comfortable being uncomfortable. Because think, if listeners, if you, like, take a minute to think about how many decisions you make because you don't want to feel a certain way, it influences us at every turn. And if you

12:35
If you think of that question, like if I could wave a magic wand and either take those feelings away or just make it so that it didn't bother you to have feelings, what would be different in your life? It's kind of mind blowing. Like how expansive that would make your life. Like there's nothing you couldn't do if you were willing to feel all of those feelings rather than that reacting on autopilot because we're trying to move away from what doesn't feel good.

13:01
Yeah, that's great. I think it, you sometimes I talk about it like grieving in the moment. Grieving is like moving into reality, like the acceptance of what's already there. It's like, you know, if my if my grandma died or something, a lot of times we try to avoid the discomfort, right? We try to pretend like it's not there. We try to just stay positive or

13:25
Or if we feel uncomfortable with someone else, we try to control the situation or we try to control their perspective of us by creating meaning that we think they would want to hear or something like that. Sitting with that discomfort, or grieving what I can't control, I think is often incredibly uncomfortable, but it helps us live in our authentic reality. And I love the way you said that. It's not... I think we have to...

13:54
change the message to let like, and I think our society tells us like, if you feel uncomfortable, you should fix it, you know, like just take this, take this pill or, you know, just try to do this, this thing that's going to turn your day around or, or make more money or, know, like, like perform better in the world. I think those things make it so that it's harder for people to heal authentically, you know, which, you know, and your message is that

14:23
It could be a really healthy thing to feel this discomfort, to sit with this discomfort and to learn how to change the story about that and say, this is just part of life and it's okay. Yeah. Well, and I would even 100 % agree, and two things come to mind. One is you're making me think of like toxic positivity and how many messages on social media like, good vibes only, don't worry, be happy. And so then people think they should.

14:51
be able to achieve that, which is ludicrous because human beings aren't, you you can't set a dial to feel one or two emotions that you like to feel. That's just silly. So then you also feel like a failure when you're unable to be happy all the time. Exactly. Exactly. The other thing it makes me think of is, so I, this is another story I like to tell because it just kind of cracks me up, but

15:14
is I am, this was a few years ago now, I, know that saying it's just like riding a bike, which means you can get back to doing something you haven't done in a long time and you can do it skillfully without having to re-practice. Like I went 25 years without skiing and then I got on skis and I still knew how to ski. So I hadn't ridden a bike, a literal bike for 10 years and I got on the bike and I started to pedal and I immediately crashed. So for me, riding a bike was not just like riding a bike.

15:42
But I got up, I didn't hurt myself, I dusted myself off. But do know how long I spent fretting over my inability to skillfully pedal my bicycle? Literally zero seconds. But it triggered all these other thoughts in me about how my kids at the time were eight and 10. They still didn't know how to ride a bike and how I must be the world's worst mother. Everyone else in the neighborhood learned how to ride bikes at four and five. My kids hadn't learned I'm a terrible mother. And that was really painful.

16:12
And if you think about the difference between those two things, me falling off my bike and me thinking about my kids who don't know how to ride bikes, can you see what's the differences between them? It's what I care about. It's what I care about, right? So like I care desperately about being a good mom. I do not care at all about my ability to pedal a two-wheeled machine. And so the place that you worry,

16:37
is the place that you care or I think I try to, I often say it as what we fear is what we hold most dear. Cause it's memorable. Like when you're laying awake at night with the wheel spinning two o'clock in the morning, what are you worrying about? Like probably not the game of Thrones isn't coming back for another season, even if it was your favorite show of all time. I used to use Ted Lasso as my example, cause it was my favorite show of all time. And then it came back for another season. And I was so happy I didn't have to use that example anymore.

17:07
But it's you're worrying about like your relationships and your health and the state of the world and being competent at your job and you know justice and fairness and like whatever the things are that really matter to you. And so if you apply this to what we've been talking about and this idea that like we quote unquote should be happy all the time it's ridiculous because if you're pursuing things in your life that are challenging that matter to you of course you're going to have.

17:34
some feelings and those feelings are likely going to be in the domain of anxiety or self doubt. And so it's normal to feel that way and to expect yourself not to is silly. And then what often happens, I mean, it's not silly. It's understandable given the social, you know, what we're bombarded with on social media and whatnot all the time, but it doesn't make sense from like a, you know, human kind of standpoint. was wondering,

18:03
If somebody has an interaction with a person checking out at the grocery store or something, which probably isn't someone that's in their life that they care about that whatever, and they're feeling really triggered in that moment, do you think it's helpful for people to think about like, what is this connected to for me that feels so important or something like that? Yes, 100%. Because you're right, like if you get in a fight with your spouse or you specialize in couples therapy,

18:31
Clearly, there's so much distress there because you really care about your marriage or your partner, your partner, know, like having a close bond. You're grieving when that bond is lost because it matters to you. But who cares if someone's rude to you in the line at the grocery store? But it might be that you really care about justice or fairness. You know, it might be that you care about like being treated courteously.

18:58
So yes, I think it can be incredibly helpful to think about why does this matter to me? And I don't want people to get into this, like the deep weeds of intellectualizing and trying. Sometimes we try too hard to figure out why because we're avoiding uncertainty. Humans hate uncertainty and that's evolutionary. Like it was adaptive to avoid ambiguity. You know, a hundred thousand years ago, you see a vague figure off in the distance and it's either a.

19:27
bear or a blueberry bush, if you say, I'll just take my chances, even though I have no idea what that is, you, well, let's say like you say, like, I'm just going to play it safe. I'm going to go back in my cave, right? Maybe you're wrong. It was a blueberry bush, not a bear. And so you missed breakfast, no big deal. But if you went out and tried to go see what it was and it was a bear, then you become breakfast. And so avoiding ambiguity.

19:56
was like a survival strategy, but also like solving the problem, trying to figure it out means you won't miss breakfast or become breakfast. So that's what our minds are designed to do. You know, if I hold up like two, let's see, I'll hold up these two things and ask you, what does this have in common? I'm holding up my phone and my eyeglasses. What do these two things have in common? Just notice what your brain does. There's no answer. They're literally two arbitrary objects.

20:23
but your brain will chug and chug and chug until it figures out what that is. And so when you're saying, does it help for people to think about why does this matter to me? Yes, but to a degree. If what you're doing is like stewing and you don't wanna sit in uncertainty and the way you're avoiding that discomfort is to try to problem solve, problem solve, problem solve, that may not be the most beneficial. But I think in general understanding that if I'm upset,

20:52
it's likely because this is a sign, an arrow pointing towards something that matters to me. What we can do with that, even if we're not sure exactly what it is, what we can do with that is normalize and validate our own experiences. Because what will happen a lot of times is, why am I so upset about this guy in the grocery store? Jeez, just let it go. It's not a big deal. And you're mean to yourself about it. But to be able to say like,

21:20
Well, because justice and fairness have always been really important to me. So it makes sense that I'm irritated that this person just cut the line in front of me. And then I can choose to try to work on making space for that and letting go of the resistance. because feelings are temporary and they're not dangerous, and you can handle them. Yeah, that's great. And I'm looking at the diffusion or self as context, maybe.

21:50
As you're talking through that I was thinking, you know, it's my ability to sort of take a step back and Look at the situation outside of myself, you know not be so wrapped up in it as much anymore But to actually like you said and I think not to criticize myself about it but to but to move into compassion like oh, yeah It makes sense that this is hard for me. I you know, I believe fairness is a very important thing or

22:17
people being respectful to each other is really important. That's one of my values, you know, and to, you know, make those connections and hopefully have some compassion as well. Exactly right. And if you're getting hooked by the thoughts specifically, you know, going back to your question about fusion and diffusion, you know, or yeah, you're exactly right. And it's, really about treating thoughts for what they are, which is sounds and syllables and images. They're not necessarily facts. They're not truths with a capital T. It's just language up in your brain.

22:47
And we want to get better at thinking about thinking. then, so like when I have this thought, like if I have the thought, what a jerk that person was to cut me in the grocery store line, I should feed them up and teach them a lesson. I don't know. You know, that what you would want to do with that thought is if I listen to this thought, is it going to move me closer to the person I want to be in the life I want to live in the direction of my values, or is it going to move me?

23:16
away and like I don't know about you but even when other people are jerks like I don't want to be a doormat but I also don't want to be violent that's not consistent with my values you know or like I often the example that often comes to mind for me is if I have the thought gee Jill you you were you weren't very present with your kids last night they were trying to reach out to you and you had your face in your phone yes that's a critical thought but it's also telling me

23:45
A truth right like that's not the kind of mom I want to be so it is a thought I want to listen to so I can try to show up differently today if that thought is you're such a terrible mother you should just abandon your kids because they'd be better off without you I'm not gonna listen to that thought because abandoning my children is not consistent with my values and when you engage in diffusion or observer self practices and you create that distance where you can observe your thoughts.

24:12
It's in that space. Like if there's no space, that's when we're just reacting on autopilot. That's when we might, you know, punch the person in the face of the grocery store. But where we, where we create that space is where we can, instead of reacting, we can choose how to respond and we can respond in accordance with our values. Building a private practice can be challenging.

24:35
Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment.

25:03
Plus when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com backslash A-T-P-P or click the link in the show notes to learn more. I imagine it's important for people to...

25:31
get clarity, like when they're not in the heat of the moment, like how do I get clarity on my values? know, like when I'm relaxed and calm and take a step back, I can think, you know, my children are very important to me. Of course, I'm going to keep showing up for them. And then if I have a bad day, I get wrapped up in things and I don't pay any attention to my kids and whatever. Then I can just sort of ground myself in my values. And it's not about beating myself up. It's about, Hey, I didn't

26:00
I didn't live up to the values I want to have for myself and how can I keep working toward that because it's important to me. That's a very different way of talking to myself than just criticizing myself and beating myself up. A hundred percent. And we're going to fail a lot. Like I've been doing this stuff in my own life, living act and psychological flexibility for over 20 years. And I, you know, I'll still snap at my kids when that's not really how I want to show up as a mom.

26:28
But none of these core processes, none of these are achievements. It's nothing you can check off your to-do list. Like, oh, I'm accepting now, or oh, I'm mindful now. They're processes that we have to return to again and again. Yes, it's a lifetime process, lifetime practice, absolutely. But I think you're spot on that we do need to really intentionally think about these things, get clarity, like you said, on values, et cetera.

26:57
during times when we're calm and not activated. And then I like to kind of start my day by setting an intention. Maybe there's a value that I feel like I haven't been sort of prioritizing that I would like to. Maybe I have something coming up during the day that I know like, I don't know, normally frustrates me. So I wanna think about how is it that I wanna show up to that experience? Or maybe I'm gonna be coming on a podcast and feeling nervous. How do I wanna show up to that experience?

27:27
as opposed to trying to figure out your values in the heat of a moment when our cortex maybe is offline and our amygdala is in charge. And there are so many different ways that people can get clarity on their values. And if you want, we can go through a couple of those. also, I'll put in a little plug for my very first book because it used to be 20 some odd years ago,

27:55
No, not well, less than that. But early on in the act days and for quite a while, if you wanted to go, so act is very experiential. We do a lot of experiential exercises. We do a lot of metaphors and it's a way to try to get out of our heads, language, predictions, assumptions, judgments, and more into our experience. What does your experience tell you? But it used to be that if you were like wanted a script for a certain exercise, you'd have to remember like which book was that in and where did I buy?

28:25
And so what 10 ish years ago, I thought more than that. Now I thought, wouldn't it be cool if you could just like pull a book off a shelf and open up to values and have like 15 exercises to choose from. And it didn't exist. And I thought, well, I could write that book. And then immediately, of course, my imposter came in was like, who do you think you are? You're not a book author. You don't write books. You're not an act expert. And luckily I had already been practicing psychological flexibility skills for many years. So I did not.

28:53
I practiced my diffusion. made space for that self-doubt and anxiety. And I wrote the book. So that's the big book of act metaphors, where if people are wanting those kinds of scripts for all the different six core processes, there's just a ton of ideas. But I'm happy to share a couple of my favorites if you think that would be helpful for listeners. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, thank you. I typically tend to share two that I like most. The first one I love because it's kind of quick and easy, but it's really powerful.

29:22
And it's thinking about what your epitaph would be, like your gravestone, what it might say if you're being really honest or what you don't want it to say, and then juxtaposing that with, if I were really living my values, what would I want it to say? So for example, I wouldn't want mine to say, here lies Jill. She always played it safe so that she would never be rejected or experience failure. Ugh. Right? And that's probably what a lot of us do do.

29:52
What I wanted to say and what I've worked toward and I think I've gotten to this place really is here lies Jill. She took risks. She played big and it was scary and it often didn't go her way, but she was proud of the way she chose to live a big, life. And you can do that kind of in a big picture way like I just did, or you can make it specific to a certain situation like work or family. So mine might say,

30:18
If I'm being honest, mine often would say, lies Jill. When she's tired and irritable, she often snaps at her kids. But what I wanted to say is, here lies Jill. Even when she's tired and irritable, she still treats her kids with respect and kindness, something like that. And then you can know that as you're navigating these different contexts how it is that you want to ideally show up.

30:49
I love that. what would you want yours to say? I'm going to put you on the spot. was just thinking like, there are so many things that I think about, like, wow, if I just had done this five years ago, or if I had just started doing this 10 years ago, then I'd be like so much further along in my life. And what are the things that I'm going to be like, the opportunity is in 10 years from now, how could I look back at myself in this present moment and say, oh my gosh, I'm so grateful that I was doing all of these things and taking these actions?

31:19
Okay, so this you are doing an actual act exercise that's in the observer self self as context domain. That's called perspective taking. And so what you're doing is thinking about future Shane. Right. And like, if future Shane, we're going to talk to present day, Shane, what do we think he would say about what choice he should make if he's living in line with his values so that today's Shane can become that best version?

31:49
of himself down the road. Yeah. When you ask me a question, my number one priority is definitely my kids and goals related to that. But also, I think about doing more public speaking. There's a course that I've been meaning to create. There's a book that I've been meaning to write for such a long time. And I like what you said. Maybe I'm just echoing off of what you said, but it's like, do I want to live a life

32:18
where I'm fearful of taking those steps and constantly have reasons why I haven't quite done it yet? Or do I want to live a life where I'm facing my fear, putting myself out there, probably failing a lot more, but at least I'm trying and I'm taking the steps forward. That's exactly it. And there's this other thing. Oh, this was what I forgot what I was going to say earlier. See, it always comes back eventually. Oh, good.

32:45
Is so I have this in my book about the imposter experience. I talk about something I call the gap trap that comes up so often, which is we get trapped in stagnation, not moving forward, so not creating the course, not writing the book, etc. Due to a perceived gap in it might be knowledge, expertise, skill, experience, or simply confidence. And we think we have to fill the gap before we move forward, which of course is a trap.

33:15
But if we rewind to what I said earlier, if you're going to do something that's challenging and anything you're doing for the first time is challenging, but even if it's not the first time, it might still be challenging. So if you're gonna do something that's challenging, that matters to you, that you care about doing well, of course you're gonna feel fear and self-doubt. So the gap trap comes in when you're like, well, I'm just gonna wait till I feel more confident and then I'll do it.

33:39
But that's a trap because why would you feel confident taking something on that's challenging that you care about doing well, especially if you haven't done it before? That's crazy. So the key is that you have to be willing to do it scared. And there's no magic wand. Like if anyone out in the universe is promising you like in five steps, I can make you have a great self-esteem and comment, like if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. And really we have to.

34:06
stop expecting comfort first and understand that discomfort when we're doing hard things is normal. And you can do it. It's just a feeling. when I have people practice different willingness skills, we can do this right now too, actually. The getting comfortable being uncomfortable thing. Let's do it. Cause that's what gets in the way, right? So maybe you're very clear on your values. You've got your like,

34:29
Here lies Shane, he took risks, he did hard things, he did the class, he wrote the book, even though he felt totally out of his depth, and even though he stumbled and made mistakes along the way, but he friggin' did it. All sorts of stuff is gonna show up, right? A lot of discomfort is gonna show up. And it's hard to let yourself feel uncomfortable. It is not our default mode, but you can practice that. You can strengthen it like a muscle. I often say to people,

34:58
Like if you told me you had a goal to run a marathon and I was like, cool, are you a runner? And you're like, no. Then you're not going to go run 26.2 Saturday. You're going to train. You're going to start by walking and then jogging and then jogging and walking and increase your speed and your distance slowly over time. And that's how I think about building willingness muscles, that ability to be in discomfort. And there are so many super fun ways that you can do this, but we can do one.

35:27
together that's really easy. And listeners can do it too as long as they're not driving. So if you just take your hands and fold them the way that feels comfortable and notice how it feels. And now switch it so it's one finger off. And it's icky, right? This is like the funny feeling way. And notice this, like the urge might be mild, might be strong to either let go or switch back. Cause that's what we often respond to is that desire to jump back into the comfort zone.

35:55
And can you notice and breathe and open and allow and then what I do is I give people this it's kind of my like five part mantra so people can kind of like repeat this to themselves as I say it. So it's this is uncomfortable. This is uncomfortable. it's but it's just a feeling. But it's just a feeling. It's not dangerous. It's not dangerous. It's temporary. It's temporary. And I can handle it. And I can handle it.

36:26
And so if you consistently practice what we do in act that's different maybe from other therapies like CBT, for example, is we're not trying to change the content of your thoughts and your feelings. We're trying to change your relationship to your thoughts and your feelings. And so that's what that mantra is aimed to aimed at doing is can I shift my relationship so that I see my feelings as yes, they are uncomfortable.

36:53
And when I say it's just a feeling, I don't mean that to be invalidating. Like obviously, you know, having a panic attack is awful. It feels terrible. And it really is just a feeling, right? So it is very uncomfortable, but it is just a feeling. It can not hurt you. It is temporary and you can handle it. And how do we know? Because you have all done it a lot in your lifetime, right? I mean, part of being human is experiencing pain. come out of the womb screaming, and if you're not, means something's terribly wrong.

37:23
So pain is just part of the deal and it's really our resistance, our avoidance, that reactivity, that autopilot thing. That's where the suffering comes in because, you know, we're missing out. We're not living the lives that we want to live. And so you can practice being uncomfortable, saying these things to yourself as a way to learn how to be with your internal experiences, your feelings in a different way.

37:51
And so I tell, I lead people to kind of start with all their senses. So this was a quick little practice we did that's tactile. You know, if I ever have cash in my wallet, I want it to be all facing the same way in denominational order, because of course, that's the only right way to do it. And you'll never find it in my wallet that way, because, you know, even though I've been doing this for 25 years, I still practice being uncomfortable every single day. I get it.

38:16
get it back from the cashier and I want to fix it so bad and I just shove it in there the way it is and I hate it and I just sit with it and I allow it and eventually I forget about it until the next time I open my wallet. So you're building, you're doing that to build your own emotional internal muscles so to speak. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You can make your shower a little too hot or too cold. You can brush your teeth with your non-dominant hand. It'll be messy. It'll be slow, but you can do it.

38:43
You know, there's and then once you eat, practice with all your senses. I right here in my drawer I have Bean Boozled jelly beans. When I do therapy with clients, we eat Bean Boozled jelly beans together. So this is the jelly bean game where you spin a spinner and it lands on like the pink speckled jelly bean and it might be strawberry banana smoothie or it might be vomit flavored. And we eat the jelly beans together because at the end of the day it's just a jelly bean, but there's so much going on. There's like dread and anticipation and anxiety.

39:11
And then there's, you you, taste the thing and then there's either relief or there's disgust. And can you make space for all of it without doing anything to change or control or escape or avoid. And, you know, it even helps with the working Alliance. Cause you get like a little trauma bond with your, with your clients after eating jelly beans that tastes like vomit, but it's fun. It's playful. And then I usually kind of graduate from the five senses up to things that

39:41
more stimuli that will trigger feelings that are uncomfortable so we can practice sitting with those. So it might be like watching jump scare videos on YouTube. It might be watching like the last five minutes of Marley and Me, which is brutal no matter how many times you watch it. It might be listening to a politician you can't stand and making space for all the discomfort that that triggers. And you can kind of work with the client to work your way up in like practicing more and more challenging kinds of.

40:10
things. I love how empowering it is the way you're talking about it because oftentimes, I think we think to ourselves, like, if I could just change my job, or if I could just change the politician in power right now, or if I could just change, you know, my partner, my partner, my partner would do things differently, then I'd feel better. You know, and the way you're talking about it is it all comes back to me, I can change the meaning that I'm bringing to these situations, and I can feel more empowered.

40:40
no matter what the discomfort is in my environment, I can feel empowered to deal with it myself. That's right. And the thing about values is that's related to what you were just saying about the other people in the world and whatnot is values are things that we can control. And really the only thing we can control are our hands and our feet and our mouth. We control like what we do, what we don't do, and what we say and how we show up as we're doing and saying those kinds of things.

41:09
We don't control other people. We don't control outcomes even. That's a big one where people like, like if you do want to write a book, for example, you talked about that, or make your course, you can do all the right things. It can be the most brilliant book, the most brilliant course. You don't really control how many people sign up for it. You don't control if a publisher wants to pick it up and publish it because there are so many factors outside of you that go into that decision.

41:39
And what often happens, you know, in our Western culture, we really see success as goal achievement. I have a goal, I achieve it, I'm successful. But that means if you don't achieve the goal, you're what? A failure. But when you don't often control outcomes, then you're like calling yourself a failure for something that really wasn't your fault. So in ACT, we really focus on like choice and steps and process, the things you can control, the things you can do in a valued way. You can want a goal. You can.

42:08
do all the best right things to make that more likely, but holding that outcome more lightly. And then you're more likely to persist. Because if you make that course and nobody signs up the first time, then you might be like, forget it. It's not worth it. I'm not going to do this anymore, even if it's something that's really important to you. But if you're clear on your why and focused on the steps,

42:36
then it means you'll be more likely to persist and then make it more likely that you'll achieve that outcome. Well, I love it. Did you mention, I forget if you mentioned Ted Lasso before we started meeting or after? No, we were recording. Yeah. Okay, we're recording. Yeah. So I feel like it's kind of like a sports analogy like Ted Lasso. It's like the goal for the player shouldn't be winning the game. The goal is about the process of the things that you can control, right? Like, am I showing up? Am I hustling my best? Am I focusing on the things I can control during the game?

43:06
Am I staying positive with my teammates and support? You know, those are the things I can't control. You can't always control the numbers on the scoreboard at the end of the game, but it's like when you look at it like that, you can define it as a success every time you're following through on those values for yourself. That's exactly right. Exactly right. And I would even add to that, that around this kind of over-focus on goal achievement, it's like, if I... Okay, so if I said to you,

43:35
Like what if you if you had to tell me like how old are your kids? 14 and 12 14 and 12. OK, close to mine. Mine's almost 13 and just turned 11. So if you had to tell me like what is your your greatest hope for your kids in their future? Like who do you who do you want them to become? What do you what do you want? I mean, this is cliche, but I want them. I just want them to be happy and fulfilled in their life. OK, so if I said to you I actually have.

44:05
this like magic thing that I can do. And I can make your kids happy and fulfilled adults. The only catch is you have to give them to me so I can do my thing. And then I'm going to return them to you when they're 30. Would you take me up on it? No, of course not. Right? Of course not. Because even though we want a certain outcome for our children, it's not actually the point. Right? The point is the journey.

44:33
It's the process, it's the relationships. And it's the same thing like what you were saying with sports. Like I used a skiing example earlier. If you're a downhill skier, and what's the goal of skiing? Getting to the bottom of the mountain. So if I was like, oh, hey, I've got a helicopter. You want to hop in and I'll give you a ride to the bottom? You're going to be like, no. I mean, it would be super cool to ride in a helicopter. But like the point of skiing isn't really getting to the bottom. It's skiing.

45:02
Right. Right. It's like the process of getting yourself down or across that mountain. Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like a lot of what we've been talking about is related to the imposter syndrome, which we never actually, so we weren't explicit about it, but I don't know if you can just say a quick 20 seconds about tying in the imposter syndrome with sort of some of the stuff we've been talking about for people. Cause

45:30
We said we were going to mention it at the beginning. So I just wanted to make sure you put it together. Well, and if people, I'm happy to come back if we want to do a whole episode on imposter syndrome. I mean, one thing is that it's not a syndrome. It's super, super common. It's not a pathology. Most of us experience it at some point. And when it was first identified, it was called the imposter phenomenon. You can use these exact act skills that we've been talking about.

45:55
to address those thoughts and feelings when they arise. You can notice you're having the thoughts, ask yourself, if I listen to this thought saying, who do you think you are? You can't create a course or write a book or whatever it is. If I listen, is that gonna make me live my life more in line with my values or not? The discomfort that you feel, usually that imposter thing arises when you're taking on something challenging that matters to you. So of course you have that experience of self-doubt. So knowing that that's normal.

46:24
practicing getting comfortable being uncomfortable, not falling into the gap trap and being willing to do the thing. I think the other real powerful antidote to this is talking about it. You people don't often admit they have these thoughts and feelings because they feel like they're outing the quote unquote fact that they're a fraud. But really, when you start to tell people you have these thoughts and feelings, the most common response is, oh my God, me too.

46:52
And I often have leaders ask like, what can I do to support the people who work for me, who have imposter thoughts and feelings? I'm like, tell them that you have them too. I mean, don't lie. But like most people do because they'll go, wait, what? You too? But you're so successful. Like here you are, like above me doing the thing and you feel this way too. How did you do it? And the answer is always going to be I felt it and I did it anyway. Yeah, you know, well, and I like I like what you said, like

47:21
something like, none of us are ever going to get to the point where we're like, oh, I mastered that. No, I'm all right. Right. Right. we have this perception that, you know, people who have written the books or people who are doing the things that we want to do, like, oh, they figured it out and they don't have to struggle with this anymore. And in fact, research on this is pretty crappy, but there is some research that shows that the imposter phenomenon is correlated with success. So you think you should be able to outrun it if you just get one more degree, one more accolade.

47:51
But the opposite happens. We don't know exactly why, but we think it's because now you have a reputation to defend, right? So if you win an Academy Award, you're not like, yes, I finally made it. I'm a great actor. You're like, oh, no. Now I have to be this good in everything I do, and I don't even think I deserve that award to begin with. How will I ever live up to this? So it can sometimes get worse instead of better. And I think the one last thing that's important to say is we probably think that

48:20
the likely outcome of when you have the imposter thoughts and feelings, it's going to lead you to avoid opportunity out of fear and self doubt. What it also often does is cause us to get on this like hamster wheel of achievement because we're trying to outrun it, which of course we just said doesn't work. So if we're avoiding opportunities because of it, then we're missing out on things that matter. But if we're like on that hamster wheel, then we're really risking burnout.

48:47
And so what psychological flexibility would mean is, I'm getting really clear on what matters to me, so that I consciously deliberately choose what I say yes to, and what I say no to, and that it's not being driven by my fear or self doubt or imposter thoughts and feelings. It's really just being driven by my values. Oh, that's great. And I love I mean, I love the word authenticity. It's like

49:13
It's connected to my authentic values, right? My authentic self, not my fear-based self, which comes in sometimes. Not what I think I should do, not what other people think I should do, not what I think my boss expects of me, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, that's great. And I was thinking too, and just in closing, I was asking about yourself at the beginning. You were talking about putting out all of these almost free resources, like the podcasts and the books and the...

49:41
speaking and it's like you were very focused on I love doing this so I can get the message out to other people because I want to help as many people as I possibly can. know, I find that when I focus on that, like the alternative for me is focusing on, well, everyone's going to look at read my book and think I'm a terrible writer. Right. It's about me. Right. Or everyone's going to I'm going to be presenting and I'm not going to know what to say or they're to they're going to think that I'm a terrible speaker.

50:10
It's about me and it brings up anxiety and fear about what people are to think of me. When I'm focusing on serving others, it moves me out of a different frame of mind, I think, where I'm like, how can I serve people? How can I help people? How can I get this message out? And I think I feel like that was a good example of you living what you're talking about, where you're focusing on the values rather than on how am going to mess up or something like that.

50:38
That's you are spot on. That is exactly, exactly right. Yep. That's exactly right. Yeah. And I really appreciate it. why. I like to say keep your why close by. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Right. Yeah. Because in reality, we'd all rather just be riding the bike or skiing down the hill rather than playing it safe. You we make a lot of excuses about, well, I'm having a good day even by not doing those things. But yeah.

51:07
Well, and that's okay sometimes too, right? Like there's nothing wrong with giving yourself permission to rest. And I, in fact, I very strongly believe we should be doing that. What psychological flex psychologically flexible choices are, are conscious and deliberate. So if I'm resting, it's not because I'm avoiding stuff I don't want to do or progressing. It's because I'm prioritizing my value of self care and rest. And I'm consciously choosing.

51:35
to take some time out, right? So it's like any time we're just getting off that autopilot, that avoidant autopilot, and really just showing up and consciously choosing that what that choice is on any given day is gonna be different. It's not always gonna be writing a book and doing a Ted talk, right? Sometimes it really might be sitting on the floor and playing trains with your kid, even if you're super bored, or it might just be sitting and like vegging out and watching.

52:01
binge watching Netflix for a couple hours, but it's a choice capital C. Yeah, that's great. That's great. Yeah. Thank you so much. This is so helpful. And before we wrap it up, can you mention again, your website, your book, any books you want to mention your podcast? Yeah, absolutely. Be able to follow up and check you out more. Sure. People can find everything there is about me at JillStoddard.com. I have a sub stack that I think I'm going to rename like two minute tips.

52:29
Because it's all psychological flexibility skills. I wish that word were easier to say. But it's just a newsletter I send about every six-ish weeks that just talks about all different things. My last one was about how I got off social media. So that you can find that either at Substack or at my website. And of course, all my books and podcasts and everything are there. And I have.

52:53
My first book I mentioned is for therapists who do act. have one that's for women with anxiety. And then the most recent one is for any professional struggling with that imposter experience. And then I have a quiz on my website to find out which type of imposter you are, which we didn't even get into all that, but that's there too. Oh, that's great. Great. Yeah. And I'll put the, I'll put some links in the show notes too, for, for your website so people can find you. Yes. And if anybody wants me to come speak at their organization,

53:23
Hit me up. That's great. Good. And there's a contact stuff on your website. They want to hit you up. all there. All right. Well, thank you so much, Jill. It's been great talking to you and maybe we can catch up again soon. Definitely. Yeah. We'll do a whole episode on imposter syndrome. All right. Sounds good. Shane. This was great. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

53:51
Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody!