242: The Go-To Relationship Guide for Gay Men with Tom Bruett

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Tom Bruett about The Go-To Relationship Guide for Gay Men. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 242: The Go-To Relationship Guide for Gay Men with Tom Bruett

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In this episode, Shane talks with Tom Bruett about The Go-To Relationship Guide for Gay Men. Tom Bruett, LMFT is a therapist, trainer, consultant, and author who works extensively with the queer community. He is the founder of the Queer Relationship Institute, which provides therapy for queer folx and training for therapists who work with queer relationships. Hear how to be more open & sensitive with your clients, the 7 stages of relational development, why you should trust your intuition with your clients, how to work better with queer couples, and how to model that these types of conversations are okay. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

• It's better just to ask the question
• Is there a specific age for the 2nd queer adolescence?
• How to open up the conversation when working with queer clients?
• How not to make assumptions for your queer clients?
• If I'm a new therapist, how should I prepare to work with a queer couple?

 

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

• 242: The Go-To Relationship Guide for Gay Men with Tom Bruett
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [0:59] Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch
• [1:10] Welcome, Tom Bruett!
• [3:11] What prompted Tom to write The Go-To Relationship Guide For Gay Men?
• [4:36] Are there often microaggressions in general communication with non-queer practitioners?
• [6:32] How to not make assumptions when working with queer clients?
• [9:26] What are the stages adult queer men experience?
• [11:10] Is there a specific age for the 2nd queer adolescence?
• [11:31] A brief overview of the stages
• [15:01] It requires vulnerability to say you've been hurt
• [16:25] What's an example of the reconnection phase?
• [18:00] How does the Developmental Model work?
• [19:36] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [20:29] What are some general developmental challenges for gay men?
• [22:48] It's better just to ask the question
• [23:58] If I'm a new therapist, how should I prepare to work with a queer couple?
• [26:13] Are you bringing up what's happening in the world?
• [28:06] Follow the client's lead
• [30:12] It's so important to model and encourage emotional processing that you want your client to embody
• [31:57] Is there a difference in how Tom teaches the developmental model in hetero spaces and queer spaces?
• [33:53] How does Tom incorporate queer context into the developmental model?
• [36:15] What was Tom's process in writing his book?
• [38:38] Who is the book written for?
• [39:30] How can therapists work better with their queer clients?
• [40:42] Who would benefit most from the Queer Relationship Institute?
• [43:34] Check out Tom's book!
• [43:59] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

 

To learn more about Tom Bruett, the Queer Relationship Institute, and The Go-To Relationship Guide for Gay Men, visit:

QueerRelationshipInstitute.com

The Go-To Relationship Guide for Gay Men

 

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This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00

what I think is missing in some approaches of couples and relationship therapy is we're not looking at the societal systemic stuff that impacts  different groups of people in different ways.

 

00:14

to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now,  your host,  Shane Birkel.

 

00:30

Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy.  Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

01:00

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone, welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and today I'm speaking with Tom Bruett, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and author of the new book, The Go-To Relationship Guide for Gay Men. Hey Tom, welcome to the show. Hey Shane, great to be here. Thanks for having me.

 

01:28

I'm really, yeah, absolutely. I'm really excited to talk with you before we get into everything. Why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about yourself? Sure. I'm  like you said, a licensed marriage and family therapist. I have a practice in Denver, Colorado.  I've also been, I was based in the Bay area for a number of years, so I'm licensed there too, in a couple other states.  And one of the other things I really feel passionately about is, is training other therapists. So I, I trained in the developmental model  in Ellen and Pete's program, but then I also have a program where I

 

01:57

train LGBTQ plus clinicians in this model. Um, just like my book, I think it's really important that as queer folks, especially today, we have a place where we can  be held and,  um, be in community. Yeah, that's great. And, um, how long have you been doing the developmental model stuff? I've been doing it probably about eight years,  like many couples therapists. I did a bunch of training and different models. And this one spoke to me. Many of the different models are more similar than they are dissimilar.

 

02:25

But it's good to a place or a change theory that you feel like works or aligns with who you are. Yeah, that's great. I mean, I'm interested in hearing more about  your perspective on  how, as therapists, we can make  our therapy more in alignment when we're working with queer folks or LGBTQ folks. What kinds of things we should be thinking about or how we should be approaching that maybe differently  or being more sensitive.

 

02:55

But I wanted to ask too, what kind of inspired you to write the book and why do you think that's so important? Yeah, so in my office, oftentimes clients, as you know, will ask for books or resources.  And I got really tired of recommending fantastic books out there with the caveat that  I'm sorry this is really heteronormative and apologizing for the book before I even recommended it. And so I wanted to create a resource that I could give to clients very confidently.

 

03:23

and say that  this book is created for you. There are case examples that are all mostly resonate with who you are and the different parts of your personality. And  I do think queer relationships are different. And so I think it's really important that, especially as therapists, we're providing resources that are appropriate and affirmative. Yeah, that's great.  And, you know, like you said,  I think a lot of the

 

03:50

the classic books, if you will. mean, I don't even know if there are, you know, there are obviously books that we all recommend about relationships. And I think historically those have been extremely heteronormative.  And, uh, you, I mean, you probably have more insight about this, but, but I imagine reading through those books, oftentimes people feel left out or feel like they're not, they're not really included in  the examples and things like that.  Exactly. And some of the books out there, again, they're great relationship books, but if, if,

 

04:20

an author just includes one example or two examples, that doesn't necessarily mean the book is affirmative for LGBTQ folks.  And so I think that's something that I just am always aware of when I'm recommending things to folks. And I think it's great that you're asking this question because I think more clinicians should be having this conversation. Do you find to, I mean, I'll probably even do it in our conversation today, but do you find people say things, there's sort of a passive way that the communication comes across that

 

04:49

it's sort of like microaggressions or something like that, where it's it's almost like the author wrote a book on relationships. And they're like, Oh, I'm gonna include everybody and it should be it should fit for everybody. But there's there's actually like my little microaggression kind of things that are coming through that a lot of people don't even realize. Yeah, again, another really great question. I think this happens a lot. We're so often programmed to get on the relationship escalator, which for many folks is incredibly heteronormative and

 

05:17

You you start dating and you date for a certain amount of time and then you propose and you get married and you move to the suburbs and you have kids.  And so anything that has that assumption in it is a microaggression.  so if people are saying, Oh, when are you going to get married? Or have you thought about getting married? Like even simple questions like that can actually feel like microaggressions for people who don't want to get married or marriage is an important and an important value for them. Or, you know, that's just one example there. Yeah. Or is against the law where they live.

 

05:46

you know, depending on where in the world they live. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, and there's, there's so many things, even just like assuming monogamy. That's something that I think happens a lot in relationship therapy. And there are certain models out there that are great models, but they do put a priority on my  monogamy. And if you're, if you're kind of centralizing monogamy as the perfect relationship structure,  doesn't really work for everybody. Yeah. Great.

 

06:11

So when you were writing the book, what were some of the things in the way that you were approaching it? And I think this question goes hand in hand with another question I have, which is for therapists more like when we are working with queer folks,  how do we be more sensitive? How do we be more open? How do we be more curious perhaps about  not making assumptions that could be harmful?

 

06:36

I think I really encourage people to get the book and to give it a read because it goes through.  I've taken the five stages of relationship development that Ellen and Pete have in their model  and I've added two additional stages. So in addition to their five stages, I've added the second queer adolescence  as a really important  first stage for a lot of folks and then an agreement stage, which comes a little bit later. And just understanding a little bit more about the developmental stage of the second queer adolescence for folks is super important.

 

07:05

Because if you think about just a couple of things like media representation, when I was growing up, there certainly were no  movies with two princes or,  you know, there were no examples of what a healthy queer relationship could look like. And oftentimes the queer character in media was the clown or,  you know, was pitied in some way or was even, you know, in some really bad cases, gonna die of AIDS or something like that was the only queer representation that we saw in the media. And so if that is the way that you are forming

 

07:35

your identity that really has a lot of negative impacts on many people. And then you put that into,  you know, many people, if you are queer, you didn't grow up in a queer household. Even if you had the most affirmative parents or caregivers in the world, there still are different experiences that you have as a queer person that you're not seeing  necessarily affirmed in your, in your house growing up. Yeah.  And, you know, depending on how old you are, I you know, I do think it, you know, there's some generational things that are different.

 

08:05

But that being said, mean, in a lot of households, there's probably not even any mention of it, no matter how nice your parents are or whatever. that just wasn't, you you're trying to make sense of who you are as a teenager, and that's hard enough as it is for everyone. But like, if you don't even have the language to describe, like, how I feel and, you know, the things that I want, which might be different than what everyone else assumes people want, like, you know, it's very, it must be very confusing.

 

08:34

And then we add into that, I'm also a sex therapist. And so  we look at sex education in much of the country, which is under attack in very many different areas.  But there certainly is no representation of queer sexuality in a lot of sex education. So if you're not getting it at school, you're not getting it at home, you're probably not seeing it in role models around the world. And yes, a lot of this has changed. But I'm still getting young 20-somethings in my office who are being excommunicated from their family because they come out.

 

09:04

Like this is still  happening and it's happening even  more so for trans folks.  And so, you know, we just have to think about that, that the world, the world is safer in a lot of ways, but I think a lot of therapists out there are probably going to assume that things are,  better than they are. And  it is for some folks, but it's not for others. Yeah. Well, and I'm, I'm curious, I'm open if you want to take it in a different direction, but I'm curious.

 

09:30

I'm wondering if you would want to walk us through the stages of relational development, including the ones that you added in your book and if that would be a good way to sort of create a foundation for the conversation. Yeah, certainly. So I, uh, the book is structured around these, these seven stages. And so I take people through, through the seven stages and the different issues that come up at a lot of the end, a lot of the stages.

 

09:54

And then at the end of each chapter, are questions that people, it's written as almost a workbook for couples to do together.  I think it's really helpful for therapists to read, especially if they don't work with a lot of queer men, just because  there are so many things in there that you can just pull out and start using with your clients if you're looking for some conversations to have with them. The first stage is the second queer adolescence.  And so  what that is in a nutshell is most queer folks will not go through adolescence at the same time that they physically go through adolescence.

 

10:24

And so they may not realize that they  may not  actually come to terms or accept parts of their identity until they're much later in their 20s, 30s sometimes, or even late teens. And so they're not having the experimentation period that a lot of our straight counterparts have in those early years where you're dating and  you're learning about relationships in a lot of ways. And so that can have an impact later in life. you're,  sometimes you'll hear this, like people go through an experience where they're

 

10:51

coming to know more about their identities and they go out and they explore in lots of different ways. If you're doing that when you're also trying to form the foundation of a relationship, that can be tricky. And so going through the second queer adolescence and really understanding some of the developmental milestones that are unique to queer folks is an important step to relationship development. Is there a specific age or just it could be a little bit different for everyone?

 

11:17

Yeah, it's going to be different for different people. mean, some people are still coming out in their 70s and 80s. And then we have people who are coming out at 12 or sometimes even earlier. And so really getting to know,  really making sure you're doing an assessment to understand what someone's experience is in that way when they came out or invited somebody into their identity is really important.  The second stage then is the honeymoon stage. So this is  this is actually a part of of the developmental model. The honeymoon stage is usually the first six months to two years of a relationship.

 

11:47

And during that period, it's all about bonding. It's all about figuring out the ways that you're similar with your partner or partners,  all of the ways that you are gonna be able to connect and bond and attach and build a really healthy relationship. Sometimes people have a great honeymoon period. Sometimes people don't, know, those couples that will get together and they will start fighting right off the bat. And so really kind of making sure you understand what was that honeymoon period like before you go into the third stage, which is the discovering differences stage.

 

12:15

And so after about two years in most relationships, that's when you start to really acknowledge the differences that emerge in partners. Oftentimes this is when people will come into couples therapy or relationship therapy and there's more conflict happening because it's uncomfortable to differentiate and to really understand and accept the differences that exist in different people. From there, we go into the exploration stage. So once you have the opportunity to start differentiating and saying,

 

12:44

Hey, I wanna go on  a weekend trip with my friends without you, honey. Can you stay home?  Or, hey, I wanna open the relationship. Whatever it may be that people are discovering in the discovering differences stage, they go out into the world and they explore that. And so figuring out, okay, how can we actually experiment with this a little bit and see what works for us and what doesn't? Then after that,  that's when I've added the agreement stage. So I think this is important for all relationships, but especially for queer relationships where there are...

 

13:12

you know, different structures at play. Sometimes, you know, 50 % of most gay relationships are monogamous, 50 % are not. So really being able to, to, and not just around the sexual structure of your relationship, but everything, being able to have  some negotiated agreements that work for everybody involved is really important. Well, I just think that,  uh, those agreements are so important that a lot of times people take it for granted, you know, like even just assuming monogamy or something like that, where, you know,

 

13:41

or what monogamy  even means  to someone, where it's like,  I all of sudden find something out about my partner and  I feel super hurt like an agreement was broken and they feel like, oh, what do you mean? I thought that was a normal part of every relationship.  it's like, it hasn't been communicated about and there hasn't been explicit agreements that have been made.  I just think that, like you said, I just think that's such an important thing for every relationship.

 

14:11

Yeah, I agree.  And Joe Court, who's another gay therapist, he often asks the question, how do you define or how did you negotiate your monogamy or non-monogamy to really get clear about that? Because so often, I mean, we'll see this in all different kinds of relationships we see in our office, but  somebody thinks that looking  at their ex on Instagram is a violation of a monogamous agreement. Somebody else  is okay with that, right? So really being clear what those are is so important.

 

14:40

So many people,  I think it's Marty Klein who says so  many  conflicts and relationships come from unspoken agreements.  so really getting clear about that. It's important. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's hard for people to be vulnerable. Like it requires vulnerability, right? For  me to say, you know, I feel really hurt when  I saw that you were looking at your ex on Instagram or something.

 

15:10

You know, like that's like a personal statement on it. It's not just about, you know, telling my partner they broke the rules. It's about this is sharing something that's vulnerable for me,  which  I think is the goal in couples therapy to help people have more intimacy and be able to have more vulnerability and warmth and softness with each other. But it's very hard.  You can't stay protected and do that at the same time.

 

15:37

No, and wouldn't we all love if our clients came in and said it the way that you just said it, I felt hurt by this.  So often they come in and they're like, you broke the rules and you know,  and then we have to deal with that aftermath. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And so the sixth stage is reconnection. So after you go out into the world and you explore, and then you make some new agreements, how do you make sure you're reconnecting with your partner or partners? And this, this step is really important because sometimes people will differentiate

 

16:07

and differentiate and differentiate and grow and expand externally, but they're not in the practice of actually reconnecting with their partner or partners. And that's, you know, I think  whether you're creating different habits or structures in place to make this happen, this, think is a really important stage  for couples to master. Can you give an example?  I'm trying to think like,  I mean, when we're looking at these stages, like when I think about the honeymoon stage,

 

16:35

that feels kind of clear, but like there's that time at the beginning of the relationship that feels like this. When you're talking about like a reconnection phase, I'm imagining like  there would be like several times where, you know, there would be a differentiation  or, you know, exploration as an individual and then coming back to the reconnection. Is that the right way to think about it? Or is it? Yeah, I often say these stages are fluid.

 

17:04

And so they  like the stages of grief. We would like to think you can progress from one to two to three to four, but that's obviously not the way it really works. You go a little bit forward, you go a little bit back and thinking about them more circularly, I think it's important and thinking about how do you master the developmental tasks of each of these stages so that if you  have had a period of exploration, sometimes you do need to go back and  work on some agreements or go forward and work on reconnection and

 

17:33

And that brings us to the final stage, which is, um, mutual interdependence, which is really about the fluidity of being able to move back and forth between connection and autonomy  or, you know, being able to go out and explore in the world and be yourself, but also be connected and attached to your partner. And so that's the goal, the North star that we're heading towards with this framework. Yeah, that's great. And it's been a long time since I've had a good conversation about the developmental model.

 

18:02

Am I remembering this correctly? These are connected to phases also of what a child might go through as they're exploring the world. Exactly. Yeah. So Ellen and Pete based their  approach on Dr.  Margaret Marler, who was a child psychiatrist and who found these same stages in infant caregiver development. Okay. So  Ellen and Pete kind of have brought them forward into adult attachment relationships  like many other attachment models.

 

18:33

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense too. And I feel like different people have different experiences, obviously, growing up in their families.  if there was a period of time or one of these phases that something happened when you were a kid,  it makes sense that you might struggle with  that aspect of as an adult in your present day relationship, that you might have certain places that are

 

19:00

where you have a lot more strengths and you have my, might have certain places where, know, that are more challenging for you. Yeah. And we see that. So there's, just kind of the typical developmental stuff that we all go through. And then you add on being a sexual minority, like, like the queer experience. And there are developmental milestones that as queer folks we have that are unique. And that's, that's what I think was, is missing in some approaches of couples and relationship therapy is we're not looking at the societal systemic stuff.

 

19:28

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19:56

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20:25

or click the link in the show notes to learn more. Obviously,  everyone's experience is different and unique, but can you  speak a little bit generally if that's possible about, like, what are some of  the things about that, what you were just saying, you know, that we should be considering?

 

20:46

And so I kept the book,  even though I teach this model and I think it's really applicable to the broader queer and trans community at large, I chose in this book to really write for gay men because that's just kind of how I identify and I wanted to kind of stick in my lane and let other people  expand in different ways and as they see fit. So I talk really specifically in the book about the developmental challenges that gay men experience. So I mentioned a little earlier, like the media representation.

 

21:14

There are also experiences of how gay men developed in connection to HIV and AIDS. So I reference Walt Odette's work around this where they're, depending on your age and in connection to when, you know, so say you were born before 1967, before the gay rights movement, you're going to have a very different experience than somebody who was born in 2012, which is after the advent of PrEP, PrEP being a medication that can prevent HIV.

 

21:43

And so if you  were born post-2012, you may have a very different experience and connection with your sexuality than if you lost most of your community to HIV or AIDS. And there's a bunch of different other  examples that I share in the second queer adolescence chapter, which really helps you think about as you're  thinking about yourself as a therapist,  how are you assessing and evaluating these developmental milestones in the clients that you're working with? Because so often I think  I hear from

 

22:10

heterosexual therapists that they're like, I don't know if I should ask this question or is it okay or,  and so often it's like, just ask the question.  If we just bring in  the question and ask and open up the conversation, it's going to make it a lot easier for our clients. Cause I've talked to so many clients who were seeing therapists that they thought identified as straight or heterosexual and they were like, Oh, I just didn't talk about sex or I didn't bring this thing up. Cause I wasn't sure if it would make my therapist uncomfortable.

 

22:38

I know for most of your listeners, that's the last thing as a therapist you'd want to hear, that your client is worried about making you uncomfortable in some way. Yeah. So even if  you're saying for therapists, even if you're worried that what your question is going to be offensive or not come out the right way or something,  it's better just to  sort of,  I guess it's sort of modeling for the client that

 

23:05

this topic of conversation is okay, this is acceptable, even if you're not asking the right questions, you're sort of giving permission for that conversation to unfold. Yes. Yeah. And,  and for us to have some knowledge to do, to do a little bit of training, if you do work with queer, with queer clients, to know some of the things that I was just talking about with the developmental milestones, because for example, I was working with a lesbian couple recently and just bringing in the fact that they probably didn't have

 

23:35

the queer  sex education, nobody was talking about this,  like the systemic issues of why it may be difficult for them to be vulnerable and talk about sex actually alleviated much of their problem and concern around it.  And so if we as therapists can kind of bring in the systemic stuff and open, open the conversations in different ways, it can make a real impact. Great. So if I'm  just starting  to, if  I'm a therapist, I'm just trying to work with

 

24:04

a new couple  who identifies as queer. What are some of the ways in which I can open up that conversation? What are some examples of like,  how do I  make those conversations feel more comfortable? It starts, I think, with your paperwork and assessment process before you even  see somebody in your space or in your  virtual space. So are your forms affirmative? Do you have spaces where you're asking people for pronouns and...

 

24:34

and how they identify. There's some really great questions out there where even on your intake paperwork, you can ask a question like, tell me some different parts of your identities that are important for me to know. And that leaves it really wide open for people to express things that they may not express. And then  when you're starting to work with folks, make sure that you are asking questions and that you are,  if we're not asking our clients ever to educate us, but you if you need consultation, definitely get consultation.

 

25:02

But don't shy away from asking really important questions. If you would ask a heterosexual client a question, think about how you may ask the same question or a different question in a different way to your queer,  the queer clients you're working with. Yeah. Great. But I mean, I feel like the comment that you made when you mentioned the lesbian couple you were working with recently, you know, making a comment like,  uh, you know, obviously you didn't have good education or sex education around

 

25:32

that felt personal to them.  Things like that, feel like, I think what you said was really helpful as far as like, don't be so worried that you're gonna say the wrong thing. Just  sort of follow your intuition a little bit. saying something like that, I'm sure was extremely validating for the couple you were working with. And so those are the types of things that I think a lot of times therapists might hold back and not say a lot.

 

26:02

And, um, but, but, uh, you know, I think you're, think I agree with you. I, I feel like that's such a good, uh, encouragement that you're giving therapists to go ahead and open up and talk about those things. It's so important. And, and it's the difference between therapists who will come and say, you know,  I have a lot of therapist or clients who will come in and say, I was seeing a straight therapist and I just didn't feel it. I didn't feel validated. I didn't feel connected.

 

26:27

And then I've had experiences where  people have said, I'm seeing a straight therapist and I feel super seen and  held and understood.  And a lot of that is talking about some of the power differentials that exist.  are you bringing up what's happening in  the broader world and saying, how are you doing with what's happening right now politically for the, especially with trans folks? Like, I think that's some of the stuff sometimes we need to just ask the question, bring it in. And so many of us are trained.

 

26:55

don't do that, don't bring yourself in. And I think many relationship therapists feel a little bit differently. You have to kind of get in there and be a strong leader and  have some direction with where you're going. But so many therapists just don't,  if you're seeing a  trans client and you haven't asked them how they're doing with the political world out there right now, you are missing that client.

 

27:19

Well, yeah.  even if they don't want to talk, even if they're like,  yeah, we're doing OK, but can we go back to talking about  we're always fighting about finances, can we talk about that again? I feel like there's still this appreciation, I would assume, of this therapist cares. They're thinking about it. They're trying to tune in to what's going on. And so it's not going to hurt anything.

 

27:47

And most likely they will have a lot of feelings about, you know, the political climate and everything else going on. You're planting a seed that they may circle back to weeks down the line and that's okay. You're letting them know you're okay and you're comfortable talking about things that are probably important to them. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And I mean, would you say that follow, you know, following the client's lead? I mean, and this is maybe principles that are true for

 

28:16

most of the couples we work with, but following the client's lead is important, right? So I might  start asking questions or being curious, and there might be things that they don't feel like are that important, and they might feel like there are things that are very important. And if I am trying to open up that conversation and it's not going anywhere, just sort of following the client's lead a little bit about what they want to focus on, would you say that's true?

 

28:43

Well, I think that's what we're all taught as therapists is to be very Carl Rogers, client centered, follow the client's lead. And I think  that's what I've learned in relationship therapy is that that's not always the most effective course of action. And so that's why models like the developmental model where you're really  assessing where a client is stuck developmentally, and then you have a framework and a  direction for where you may be going, your interventions are structured around where a client is developmentally stuck.

 

29:11

And so you're not scared to kind of get in there and maybe bring up something or suggest something that  kind of, again, using a queer example, like the lesbian couple I was talking about, if I think there's some developmental stuck place in the second queer adolescence, I may  not, and the client may not bring that up for weeks or months or years or ever, I may bring that up at a certain point and say, I wonder if this is getting in the way of your relationship with so-and-so and if it's something that you're needing my help talking about in a more direct way.

 

29:39

And so I do think relational therapy is a lot more, uh, directive and you can kind of roll up your sleeves and get in there. And that's why I love the developmental model so much because it gives you a way to, you know, really start disrupting some of the, the stuckness that we see in our offices so often. Yeah, that's great. I totally agree with that. We grow up in a society where we don't have  like real good relationship skills taught to us,  uh, or modeled for us oftentimes.

 

30:09

And  the client, no matter how much we move into compassion and understanding and help them connect with the emotions, I still feel like there's a lot of  importance to  teaching clients about how to have a good relationship and identifying specifically for them  maybe where they're getting stuck in their own relationship with that. Yeah. And a lot of times, and I don't know if you've experienced this, but a lot of times there's resistance to that.

 

30:39

you know, if I say, that,  you know, that must make you really sad. And it's like, no, I'm not sad. I'm angry or whatever. And it's like, um, you know,  maybe, maybe directive, but at the same time, you know, figuring out how to,  uh, dance with the client a little bit to sort of validate what they see in front of them, what they feel and, but also using our, uh, you know, all of our experience as a therapist to try to bring in.

 

31:08

you know, elements of it that we might be seeing. Yeah. And understanding the different components, like really  as couples therapists, you know, we are in the brain change business.  And so making sure we understand the brain and conflict and making sure we understand attachment styles and,  how to make confrontations that can be effective. Cause we're not, mean, personally, I was not taught that in therapy school, how to actually confront a client in a way that could be effective, that isn't going to send them into

 

31:37

a dissociative state or something, you know, really being able to stay connected with them, stay attached to them as I'm helping them move in a different direction. Yeah, that's great. I'm wondering like when you're doing your training in the developmental model and you're just teaching therapists at developmental model, there, is there a lot of difference in the way when you're teaching for what would you call, is it LGBTQ training or when you're doing that training?

 

32:05

you know, are you approaching it differently as you're teaching therapists how to work with relationships? Very much so. So,  um, one of my early training experiences was at a place called queer life space, which is in the Castro in San Francisco, and it's an entirely queer community mental health organization. And so all of the people that we were working with were queer, all of our supervisors, all, mostly all of our clients. And  we had weekly trainings and there was something so powerful about being in a space with other queer folks.

 

32:35

where I wasn't, because I am that annoying student who's always like, how does this apply to queer folks?  Because most trainings you go to don't, like it's an afterthought, or they say, oh yeah, this will also work for gay and lesbian folks. Well, where's the research? know, show me how this is applicable. And so the way that I structured this  course is very much  based on my experience at Queer Life Space. And so it's all of the examples that I use are queer, all of the pictures in the slides.

 

33:03

and entire community. Right now, I've got a group of about 20, 22, 25 folks from around the world.  we  can actually come together and have a shared experience where, because when you're working on relationship stuff, your own personal stuff comes up, of course.  And so being in a space where you're not the  odd person out, but you are the majority, feels really, important. And then talking through the developmental experiences that people have are really, really different  in a queer context than...

 

33:33

in a mostly heterosexual space. So if you're teaching just for the developmental model training,  how would you answer that question? If I were to if I was a student and I was asking, well, how are how is this applicable to  queer relationships or something like that?  How would you answer that question? Or how are you incorporating that into your trainings like that?

 

33:58

Well, mean, what's one of the reasons that I was drawn to Ellen and Pittsworth originally is that their book that came out, their first book in 1984, there were actually gay and lesbian examples, case examples in that book, which that was the height of the AIDS crisis. And they took a real risk and put those case examples in there. And there are models today who still don't have LGBTQ examples in their books. And so that's kind how I knew I would feel safe in that space. And then

 

34:26

What's been great  in working with Ellen and Pete is like, how do I bring in the experiences of queer folks that are different and adapt this model? And what works so beautifully about this model is the focus on differentiation. So how can you actually really connect with your own unique sense of self and honor that and then build a relationship around those values? And this model works really well in that sense because there's not a...

 

34:51

prescribed like a relationship has to look like this. There has to be a period of monogamy at the beginning.  Non-monogamy is actually a threat to the  attachment system. There's none of that crap. And so  I think that that is really, really important when you're dealing with queer relationships. Not that every queer relationship is non-monogamous, but that's just a really clear example  that most people can understand. And that's why I put it out there. Yeah.

 

35:19

I always loved that about the developmental model. And again, I haven't had any training with it, but  my understanding  on that focus of differentiation, you know, because to me, it's very empowering to the individual. It's like,  I have the ability to  become healthy for myself. And that's what I'm bringing to my relationship, right? I'm not dependent, I'm not waiting for my partner to do certain things in order for me to feel okay in my life.

 

35:48

Yeah, it's very empowering. And if you can personally connect with your own thoughts, wishes, feelings, desires, like it just frees you so dramatically. But it doesn't mean that you're, it's not going to feel risky to have those conversations with a partner, but you getting clear really, really helps everything just become a lot easier. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Well, um, I know there are a lot of people  listening who,  you know, I've thought about writing books.

 

36:17

And I wanted to ask you a little bit about that because  so often I think we have the intention of writing a book  or we have a lot of good ideas for  the book that we're going to write, especially as therapists, because I think we have so much to offer the world.  But a lot of times people have a hard time with the follow through on completing the book. So I'm just curious, what was your process in that? And how did you like writing the book?

 

36:46

Did you have a lot of structure as you were going through that? Well, was, so I, when I was, I first got the book contract and I was, I was going to do like, Oh, okay. I'm going to write once a week for a certain number of hours. And I just was failing miserably. And so I was talking to a friend and colleague, Martha Cope and they were like, you know, why don't, why don't you just take a month off of clinical work and just try to write a first draft?

 

37:11

And I was like, I can't do that. My clients are, that's never going to work. I'm going to lose all this money.  And that's what I did. I took, I took a month off clinical work. It was about five weeks  and I just took writing as a full-time job. And I, I just wrote for almost eight hours a day. And at the end of that process, I had almost a first draft and then it was easy enough for me to kind of go back and,  and do some of the editing. But I don't think I ever would have finished this book without that chunk of time, because it's just.

 

37:41

it's very difficult to write a little bit. then  I couldn't, I'd have to reread what I wrote before I'd get into the next section. And it was just, I was just getting really stuck. Wow. That's great. I can see how beneficial that could be. And I think, you know, everyone's different, you know, for some people, maybe just writing for 30 minutes a day would work for them.  But like, I can definitely see how great that would be to just take a few weeks off.

 

38:10

just focus full time on writing the book. And I'm happy to hear that worked out well for you. Yeah. And again, that's going to differentiation, really knowing yourself and knowing what's going to work for you. Cause like you said, it's that wouldn't work for everybody. I've got some friends who  are doing the 30 minutes a day and they're, they're killing it.  I was, I was floundering.  Yeah. Speak to who this book is good for, who would benefit from reading this book.

 

38:37

So think if you're a therapist and you work with gay men or even queer folks, I'd recommend getting this book. If you're interested in the developmental model, the book is pretty much focused on developmental model, the  developmental model framework. So it's  a starter point there if you're interested in that.  And then it's really written for gay couples.  But I've also had a few single gay men who are really getting a lot out of it because they're like, wow, this is helping me like even.

 

39:04

think about  what questions to ask when I'm dating folks or  what kind of relationship is even possible. So I think there's a pretty  wide range  of people who are getting something out of this. I thought it was initially just going to be for gay couples, but I'm hearing other experiences of people reading it and having a good experience with it. Yeah, that's great. And what's something else that  therapists can do who want to be better at working with queer couples?

 

39:33

you know, what are some of the things, you know, reading your book obviously, but what are some of the other things that we can be doing? I think  the first step is a self assessment because a lot of people think, and this has been the case for me with different things too. Like  the most recent thing for me has been  ADHD and neurodiversity. Oh, I know enough about that. I don't need to study it.  That's not actually true, right? I actually, I see a lot of folks that, that, that

 

40:01

kind of have that experience and I need to do more training. So do a self-assessment. If you think, oh, I'm good. have like a, I have a queer friend I understand, I know. Really get honest with yourself. And if you need to do some more training or consultation, do it. Because  it, I have heard too many horror stories of clients who have been harmed. Unintentionally, the therapist had the best of intentions, but you know,  if we don't have the knowledge,  we are potentially gonna do some harm.

 

40:31

Yeah, that's great.  um, how, and who, who is your training, uh, good for,  or what is the extent of,  I mean, how big is that commitment? Yeah. So the training that I do, starts in September each year  and it's a nine month online course for queer therapists. And so that's, it's not that it's not really designed  to, treat or to, help people train who are not, who don't identify as queer.

 

40:58

I've done some other trainings in that way, but this is really for queer therapists  who want to learn the developmental model from a from a queer perspective. And so we meet twice a month and we do the first part of the month is training and teaching. And the second part is consultation, because I think with any model, really getting it in your bones and doing some consultation is so important. And the developmental model level one, when I train with Ellen and Pete, it's about a 36 hour commitment over the course of a year. So it's a pretty hefty.

 

41:28

investment of time  and attention.  And so in order to get level one  trained,  offer the same 36 hours over nine months. Okay, great. Great. Well, thank you so much. Any any other final thoughts before we before we wrap it up here? I just I love your podcast. Thanks for doing what you're doing. And it is not easy to be a couple and relational therapists. And so it's just really lovely to have

 

41:53

a community of people who are continuing to do this work and invest in it because it's different than individual therapy and it's really important to spend some time with it. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. And I really appreciate what you're doing. I think that, you know, there is like an assumption, I think, especially if all your, all your friends are therapists, you're sort of like, the movie, the, the, world is moving in the right direction. You know, this isn't as

 

42:19

as big of a deal anymore. Like you said, I  have a couple queer friends,  but at the same time, I think that we're still way behind. I think that this is still in its infancy in some ways, idea of queer relationships and studying. And I think as therapists, we need to continue to be on the forefront and get educated and take this really seriously.

 

42:46

I think in 30 years from now, people will be looking back and being like, look how far behind they were  at that time. So I appreciate what you're doing, continuing to educate people and  help people feel  more empowered in their relationships.  And it's not all doom and gloom. There is queer joy. There is progress. There's lots of beautiful stuff, too. And I think we need to be really strengths based when we're working with our queer clients. But yes, there's still work to be done.

 

43:17

Yes.  say the book one more time so everybody can go purchase a copy of the title of the book and also your website where people can find out more about you. Right. So it's the go-to relationship guide for gay men  from honeymoon to lasting commitment. And you can get it on Amazon or any place  you would get a book.  Then my website is  www.QueerRelationshipInstitute.com. Great.

 

43:46

Great, and I'll put that in the show notes. But thank you so much again, Tom. It's great talking to you. And hopefully we can catch up again at some point. Yeah, I would love that. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks.  Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP or click on the link in the show notes to learn more.

 

44:15

Thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy.  I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time.  Bye, everybody!