240: Emotional Abuse with Shane Birkel

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this solo episode, Shane dives into emotional abuse. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 240: Emotional Abuse with Shane Birkel

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

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In this solo episode, Shane dives into emotional abuse. Hear why emotional abuse is so complicated, how it compares to physical abuse, how different family environments impact the potential for emotional abuse, examples of boundary violations, and how to stick to the principle of non-violence with your clients and yourself. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

• Why Shane prefers to use the word "abuse" primarily in the context of children rather than adults
• What is a healthy timeout?
• Is emotional abuse a precondition to couples therapy?
• Setting a boundary IS how you stand up for yourself
• How to name acts of emotional violence

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

• 240: Emotional Abuse with Shane Birkel
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [0:59] Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch
•  [1:38] Taking the time to unpack emotional abuse
• [4:17] Look into Dr. Ramani Durvasula's work
• [6:32] The definition of emotional abuse
• [10:10] Communicating through emotional misalignment
• [12:52] Naming emotional acts of violence 
• [16:03] Determining how you navigate boundary violations
• [20:04] What is a healthy timeout?
• [21:14] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [22:12] Emotional abuse is not a precondition for couples therapy
• [24:15] Couples therapy is there to facilitate the dance between partners
• [26:05] Ensure you have a plan to make the emotional dance easier for both parties
• [27:55] Setting a boundary is how you stand up for yourself
• [30:09] Why Shane prefers to use the word "abuse" primarily in the context of children rather than adults
• [34:12] Choose accountability, not guilt
• [34:49] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: This transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00

Is the person willing to go to couples therapy? Is the person willing to take a look at themself? Is the person willing to become conscious and see the ways in which they are being hurtful to their partner?

 

00:22

The podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now,  your host,  Shane Birkel.

 

00:37

Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy.  Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

01:07

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Today I'm going to be talking about emotional abuse. This is a phrase that people have been throwing around a lot. This is  a really important topic to cover  and I actually mentioned it in the last solo episode that I did, which was two episodes ago.

 

01:35

I was talking about the three things that made it so that couples therapy wasn't indicated. And one of the things I mentioned was physical abuse. And I kind of  glazed over emotional abuse as well.  I didn't spend much time getting into it, but I got a message from one of the listeners who  said that  I minimized the impact of emotional abuse. And so I wanted to just take the time

 

02:03

to explain my position on that. I was really grateful that somebody reached out.  I'm always open to learn.  think that  I certainly am not claiming to have  all of the knowledge on everything.  So I really appreciate when people  give me feedback, they have a different perspective,  or  I've learned a lot from other people and changed my views on certain things because people have.

 

02:32

giving me feedback.  that being said, this is something that I've studied a lot. This is something that I teach my couples about all the time. This is something that's really important to me. And so I'm going to take the time to  just sort of lay out my perspective  on emotional abuse. And then if you have any feedback for me, definitely let me know. I'm really interested to hear if there are other people's perspectives or if I'm missing something about this.

 

03:02

And one of the things I was saying was if there is physical abuse  in a relationship, then the relationship is not going to get better. The couple is not going to have the safety to develop a healthy intimacy with each other, but emotional intimacy and connection.  One of the things I was saying is that physical abuse should be completely like just off the table.  There's no

 

03:31

reason whatsoever in any situation where another human being has the right to physically harm another human being. That being said, if you are in an emotionally abusive situation that's really extreme and your partner's not willing to work with you and your partner's not listening to you and you're feeling hurt by it on a day-to-day basis and you're not getting anywhere, first of all, would say get

 

04:00

Those are situations where think couples therapy can be helpful, but if your partner still isn't listening  and still  doesn't have the intention  of making things better, then absolutely you should leave that. That's not going to be a healthy relationship. There are situations where  emotional abuse exists and it's just never going to be healthy.  There's actually, I would recommend looking at Dr. Ramani Zervasula.

 

04:30

She has written a couple of books on narcissistic personality disorder  and she has a bunch of videos on YouTube and bunch of resources online. But  she does a really good job talking about this, you know, and that's another buzzword right now, which is narcissism. But there are situations where  in relationships where  that person isn't able or willing to  work toward change.

 

05:00

I don't want to deny. I'm not denying that that exists. You know, if it is really bad, I would definitely recommend someone leave that situation. But I want to take a step back and define what I think emotional abuse is. Well, first of all, I want to say that I think every single human being is inherently precious and deserving of respect. This is that's the starting point for  going into this conversation. And people have a

 

05:29

clear understanding of physical abuse and  physical harm. If I punch somebody, there's no arguing that I'm being abusive, that that's a harmful thing to do to another human being, that that is  not respecting their boundaries. But with emotional abuse, it can be a little bit harder to define. And our society is certainly  just catching up in some ways  and learning more about how harmful

 

05:59

emotional abuses, I would say that it's just as much a form of violence as physical stuff.  Absolutely. And I think, you know, if we take a step back, if we look at the start of a relationship, part of it is the ability for people to have a voice about what feels good or what doesn't feel good to them, right? Because, you know, let me go back to the definition of emotional abuse. If I'm talking about emotional abuse,

 

06:28

I would say that it's anything that's less than nurturing  and caring toward another human being. But it also doesn't necessarily have to do with the intent, right? The impact that I'm having on another human being  doesn't necessarily have to do with my intention about what's happening. So I give this example a lot. You know, if there's a couple, let's say  one person grew up,

 

06:58

in a family. You know, there was lots of people in the family. Everybody was talking over each other.  You know, it's just loud, you know, fun. But there was a level of chaos that was always going on  that was normal for that person. Right. And then they  end up being in a relationship with a person who grew up in a really quiet family. Maybe they were the only child. Maybe the parents were really conflict avoidant. Nobody ever, you know, everyone was trying to be polite.

 

07:27

and respectful of each other, but nobody ever really brought up how they're really feeling. All right. And if those two people find each other in a relationship, the person from the quiet family, from their perspective,  the other person's approach  to certain communication might feel like a lot, right? It might feel too loud, too boundary violating, too disrespectful  or hurtful even to them. Now,

 

07:57

They may not have any intention of being hurtful to their partner, but it's still possibly emotionally abusive. Now, this is where I wouldn't use that language. If I'm coaching couples about how to talk to each other,  think couples,  once you start throwing that around, then people are more likely to get defensive and focus on the intention.  So if the person from the quiet family said,

 

08:27

You're being emotionally abusive because you're talking so loud. You're in my face. You're  not respecting my boundaries. The other person's  likely to say,  no, I'm not.  I'm not being abusive or  I'm not trying to hurt you. I'm not trying to do anything that's hurtful to you.  It doesn't lead to a productive conversation. So this is where when it's two consenting adults,

 

08:53

you know, we start talking about boundaries, right? You have every right to set boundaries for yourself. And if it's someone who loves you and cares about you, then they have a vested interest in listening to what your boundaries are. And so when a relationship starts, the best case scenario  is that when a relationship starts, right, if you have two healthy adults, two healthy consenting adults, what will happen is you'll start to  notice things

 

09:23

that feel hurtful or notice things that you don't like or notice things that aren't working for you.  And it's helpful to have a voice about that, right? So I would want to have a voice and say, hey, when you're doing this, it's not  working for me  or  it feels hurtful to me. That doesn't mean that like we can't have a relationship. The next question is how are the people doing at listening to each other?

 

09:50

and working with each other at giving each other feedback, right? Because for a loving, healthy relationship to exist, there has to be that kind of communication for each person to express their truth and their authentic reality of what's going on. If every time people feel hurt by their partner, they're like, you're being abusive, again, doesn't make it feel like we're on the same team and we're trying to work together. Instead, if people say,

 

10:20

hey, this isn't working for me. Would you mind toning it down a little bit? That would be helpful to me. That's a healthy way of communicating. And I've talked a lot about this before. I'm happy to talk about it more as far as the healthy communication goes. I think the other  thing that could happen at the start of a relationship is if the other person is,  if I don't feel like the other person is listening and respecting my boundaries, that's where I might end the relationship.

 

10:49

Because I'm saying this is this isn't a good fit. This person isn't listening to my perspective. This person isn't working with me and I have the ability to end their relationship. And it's not like, well, that person is emotionally abusive.  It's like, well,  they weren't able to, you know, they weren't making me feel safe.  And  I'm an adult who could make a choice about not being around that person anymore.

 

11:15

So I know it's more complicated when somebody has been together for 20 years and they have kids and they have  a house together and they have  their finances intertwined. But in these situations,  believe, you know, that if there's emotional abuse happening, the one of the questions that I would want to ask is, are both people committed to this?  Really? Are both people? Do they love each other? Do they care about each other?

 

11:45

Are they intending to be abusive toward each other? Right? Because a lot of times when I have couples who come into couples therapy, they're both being emotionally abusive to each other. And  there's a process  of  educating them about what that looks like.  And they're able to make the changes and they can move into consciousness about it. Because a lot of times we're operating from a place of not being conscious. You know, where

 

12:14

whatever family someone grew up in, that's what their communication style looks like. know, a lot of people grow up in situations where... Let me give you some examples of boundary violations. A lot of people grow up in situations where there's yelling and screaming, name calling, ridiculing a person, lying, breaking a commitment, being sarcastic, shaming a person, making them feel bad about themselves. You know, these are all examples of things that are emotionally abusive.

 

12:44

These are all boundary violations of another human being. These are all emotional acts of violence. And I think that it's important for us to say that and to recognize that because I don't want to operate from the mindset that I can do these things and it's okay and it's healthy or okay or I'm justified. Right. And a lot of people

 

13:11

do them because they feel like they're a victim and they're attacking from the victim position. They feel entitled to behave in certain ways because, well, my partner did this to me first, so I can do this back to them, right? And so one of the things that I really, really encourage a lot of people that I work with, and this is a principle that I try to live by in my own life, is the principle of nonviolence.

 

13:39

Non-violence, obviously physically, but also emotionally and psychologically.  I am trying,  and that's with other people, it's also with myself. Because a lot of us talk to ourselves in a way that's more abusive than we would talk to anyone else, right? Criticize yourself, you shame yourself, you get down on yourself, you're hard on yourself.

 

14:09

that has a huge impact. The commitment to nonviolence starts with yourself, how you can be forgiving of yourself, but it also involves making a commitment not to cross a certain line with the people in your life, with your partner, with your kids, with your extended family, with your coworkers, with anyone else in the world.

 

14:36

Like I said, human beings are inherently precious and deserving of respect that I try to make a commitment to  nonviolence with anybody in my life.  But the reality is that we all make mistakes. There are moments where my kids have been  just completely out of control and

 

15:01

I start raising my voice and yelling at them and telling them to stop, know, or something like that.  I want to admit, I want to acknowledge that that's probably emotionally abusive. Right. And so, like I said, that doesn't mean that I need to  go to jail  or something like that in this situation. But my commitment to nonviolence is about me acknowledging that that isn't OK, no matter what age they are, probably.

 

15:28

there's accountability that's necessary where I where I can say it's not OK that I raise my voice at you. I'm so sorry.  And  you know you're still grounded for hitting your sister, but. That  I'm acknowledging and especially with my partner, right? So is your partner willing to be part of a repair process? That's a big question like your partner is going to make mistakes.

 

15:56

It's a big problem to  hold people to standards of perfection.  certain mistakes are  not,  like physical abuse,  that's not the mistakes I'm talking about.  That's just too far, too much. And maybe that would be something,  or an affair situation for some people, that's  an emotional boundary violation. An affair is a broken agreement.

 

16:25

that's emotionally abusive. So for some people, that's just too extreme of a boundary violation that they can't continue working on their relationship. I will say there are a lot of people who can, who can work through that and get to a good place and a healthy place in their relationship. It's a lot of hard work. And again, that's for another episode, but

 

16:47

There has to be a decision of,  so is my partner someone who's willing to work with me?  Is my partner someone who loves me and cares about me fundamentally? And we can come up with a plan together and we can work together. So another example, this is a very simple example, but I think, you know, it illustrates some of the points that I'm talking about. Let's say that my wife goes to the grocery store and she forgets to get the bananas.

 

17:14

Right. And I really want the bananas and that's really important to me. And she comes home  and it feels like a broken agreement to me. She agreed to get the bananas  and  she didn't. Right. So  I feel like she's been emotionally abusive to me. Now, again, I wouldn't use that language. I wouldn't even have that mindset because I know that my wife loves me and cares about me. What I would prefer people do is speak from a place of vulnerability. Again, if it's somebody you trust.

 

17:44

If it's a relationship you're working to make better,  I want to come from a place of vulnerability and say, hey, that was hurtful to me.  When you forgot the bananas,  it feels like  I'm not a priority to you. I'm going to this place in my mind where I feel alone. I feel abandoned. feel  like I'm not important. I know that's all my own stuff.

 

18:11

you know, maybe you wouldn't even share all that with them. Like it's just the consciousness for yourself of like these are, this is part of my own stuff, right? Probably from my own history. And I'm just making this up, but that all of us have feeling strong feelings in response to the things that are happening in our relationship. And then, but, but in this example, let's say I don't handle it in a healthy way, right? And I say something like you never remember.

 

18:40

the banana. You never remember things that are important to me. Right? So I take my hurt and I turn around and say something that's emotionally abusive to my partner,  which is an absolute statement, which are really helpful to avoid in healthy relationships. So now my partner is hurt. Right? So I'm feeling like a victim. I feel entitled to attack from the victim position. I make a comment like

 

19:08

You never remember things that are important to me.  And now my partner's hurt. She could feel entitled to attack from the victim position and say something sarcastic back to me  or hurtful or blame me or whatever. And now both of us can say, well, my partner is just being abusive to me.  so I'm just going to, then I might do something like Stonewall.

 

19:36

the rest of the day, which is another form of abuse where I'm just turning my back and slamming the door and refusing to connect. Now that's different than a healthy timeout, which is something that I talk to couples about a lot.  We talk a lot about in the couples therapist inner circle.  It's a very different thing when you set up a healthy timeout versus  something that's stonewalling, right? A refusal to connect.

 

20:03

just real quick and I can do, and I can talk more about it, but real quick, a healthy time out is more like we've made a plan ahead of time. We, just have a time out plan in our relationship, you know? So when my wife forgets the bananas, I say something hurtful. She could then say, you know what, let's take a time out. And I know what, what, you know, part of the plan would be that what that means is that I love you. I care about you. I don't want to keep.

 

20:32

going down this road. And then, you know, the other part of the plan is that we'll make a commitment to check in with each other in 20 or 30 minutes. And  even if you're not ready to reengage at that point, you're still feeling hurt. You could say, hey, how you doing? Are you OK? No, I'm not quite ready to talk yet. OK, we'll take a little bit more time. But that's not stonewall. That's not me just leaving for 24 hours and nobody knows where I am and nobody can get a hold of me. That's like me sort of like

 

21:03

saying that I need to take space for myself and I'm communicating that and there's an agreement that we will come back together at some point  and  go through that repair process. Building a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days.

 

21:32

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22:00

visit helloalma.com backslash A T P P or click the link in the show notes to learn more. This is what I mean. You know, when I was saying in that other episode that emotional abuse, it's not a precondition for couples therapy because most of what I'm doing in couples therapy is helping couples recognize that the ways in which they're being emotionally abusive to each other, right? For using that.

 

22:29

definition of it. And so  those are the things couples therapy I think can be most helpful for now. I think what  the person who wrote me, I think part of what they're talking about again are some really extreme situations which do exist, but to me it's more about  is the person willing to go to couples therapy? Is the person willing to take a look at themselves? Is the person willing?

 

22:58

to become conscious and see the ways in which they are being hurtful to their partner. And  sometimes it's not easy. Sometimes, you know, I think that in our society and the way that we're socialized, you know, we see the world almost in this way that's like a combative  or, you know, black and white, which is like, you know, if somebody cuts me off, I have the right to,  you know, flip them off.

 

23:28

or some, you know, like, but I think it's important to continue taking a look at your own relationship. Like I said before, like the way to escape  that back and forth. Well, and I should say, too, you know,  most couples therapy books will talk about the dance that exists between each couple. Right. So  I have the losing strategies that I, you know, choose to use.

 

23:58

In my relationship, my wife responds with the things that she does.  Both of these things are connected to our childhood experiences and who we are and our personalities and all of that. And we get in this dance where we go back and forth. Right. And this is not healthy for any relationship. And again, this is what couples therapy can be really helpful with to help people recognize that. But,  you know, there's a question of can you get

 

24:26

people in the mindset of being on the same team, of looking at it from the outside,  and then do they have the willingness to be accountable? In the repair process, it's gonna be really important after the banana situation, it's gonna be really important for me to say something like, hey, that wasn't okay the way I said you never take my feelings into consideration or whatever. Like, you know, it's not true.

 

24:53

And I just said it in a mean way and that was really  mean of me to do that. And I'm sorry, right? So that's part of the accountability. Again,  I would encourage couples to avoid using a language like abuse.  I would encourage, but I could say like, hey, I wasn't being very nice at all and I'm really sorry about that. Right? And my, and you know, my wife could in that repair process could also be accountable, could say, you know,

 

25:21

I'm so sorry.  I forgot the bananas. I know that's important to you  and Whatever again, it depends on each person's situation It depends on you know how this can work for you and we can talk more about the  speaker and listener  Again,  I have resources on my website. You can check out But I don't want to get too off track at this moment, but you want to

 

25:50

be able to have a plan to work together  with your partner, right? You want to be like, and again, that's what couples therapy can be helpful or just sort of taking some time with your partner to take a step back and look at where are the areas that we start getting into trouble and we either start feeling hurt or we start doing things that are hurtful to the other person. And how can we make a plan around

 

26:20

making it work better for each person.  So in that original example I gave where one person comes from a loud, chaotic family and one person comes from a quiet, reserved family, you don't want to argue over who's right or wrong. That doesn't really tend to get people very far. What you want to do  is be able to say,  I'm willing to work on changing for you.  So it's like, I'm not going to tell you

 

26:50

you're talking too loud  and  that's mean and abusive. I'm going to say, would you be willing to tone it down a little bit for me? That would be helpful for me. And I would really appreciate that. So for a lot of, you know, relatively healthy relationships,  this is the type of thing that is going to be really helpful and will help you avoid, you know, talking about it as emotional abuse. That being said,

 

27:20

Like from a personal accountability standpoint, I want to recognize that, you know, there are things that all of us do that are hurtful to other people. And I want to make that commitment to nonviolence in my life. And I encourage you to make that commitment to nonviolence in your life. And a lot of people might hear that and say, well, I don't want to be a doormat. I have to stand up for myself. Yeah, standing up for yourself as an adult means setting a healthy boundary.

 

27:50

And a healthy boundary is not dependent  on the other person changing, right? So again, if you're in a really emotionally abusive situation and you communicate your boundary like this  again and again and again, then I would consider  thinking about probably with professional help,  I would consider, is this really a healthy situation for me? This is a partner who's not.

 

28:18

able to listen to me and continues to do hurtful things to me, then maybe that would be over.  Maybe that should be a relationship that ends. But if you have a partner who is sincere, who cares, and just needs more  education and consciousness, then I think that you communicating your boundary would sound more like, hey, listen, this isn't working for me.

 

28:47

I'm going to go take a walk  because I don't like the way you're talking to me. And when I come back, I'm hoping we can communicate in a respectful way. Right? So I can have a voice from every, none of that was hurtful or wrong. Like I have a right to say what I need. I have a right to say, Hey, this isn't working for me. I don't like the feeling of this. I'm going to go in the other room for a while. You know, this needs to change. that, that's, that's me communicating my boundary. You know, that's

 

29:16

I can be strong, can be firm,  I can be clear with my partner about what's not working or what I need, but I don't have to  muddy the waters by being blaming or critical or sarcastic or all of these other things.  So there's a healthy way of communicating in a firm, strong way, and I always have to know that I have the right

 

29:46

to my own boundaries. I have the right to communicate what I need to be safe or just do what I need to be safe. This is why I think abuse, the word abuse, is much more applicable to situations with children. That's where I would be inclined to use it more. When we're talking about children, children aren't developed enough

 

30:13

to set boundaries for themselves. That's why they need parents or caretakers because the parents and caretakers, one of the jobs of the parents and caretakers is protecting the child and setting boundaries for them  to keep them safe. So if a child grows up in a situation where the very parents or caretakers are the ones who are creating the lack of safety by being abusive,  either physically or emotionally,

 

30:43

That to me is a very serious issue  because children don't have the ability to set a healthier boundary even from emotional abuse.  So there are, I am  a huge advocate of  parents and caretakers and adults in general  of  really, really learning what  emotional abuse looks like  and being mindful of it with respect to how they're.

 

31:11

treating children because that  has to be completely off the table. You know, I think way too many parents don't have the maturity or the education, you know, because of the way we're socialized in our society.  And they're using the excuse that they're, you know, just teaching their kids how to be respectful citizens of the world or something like that. But oftentimes they're using tactics that I would say are emotionally abusive.

 

31:41

and have to  have to change. And again,  if there's a child who's in a situation, you know, let's say every time they come home, their parents are criticizing them and making them feel bad and shaming them,  which is incredibly emotionally abusive. That child doesn't have the same ability to say, hey, this isn't working for me. I don't like this. I'm going to go take a walk, especially, you know, depending on how young they are.  But even teenagers like they're dependent on that parent.

 

32:10

for where they live, just their basic needs being met.  And so  it's not the same. It's not at all the same. That's  completely abusive to children. Right. And a lot of times parents will, you know,  an example of this is parents will say,  you can't talk to me like that. You're grounded. And the child, you know,  when the reality is the parents talking to the child like that 10 times more than the child is talking to parent like that.

 

32:39

And the child has no ability to  ground the parent or  give them consequences. So there are punishments, I would say, in that example. It's not like two consenting adults who are in the situation, two empowered consenting adults who are in the situation. And so  I've talked a lot about patriarchy before. These kinds of power dynamics do exist between adults at times.

 

33:07

But again, that's another conversation.  But  I just wanted to say that really quickly.  I think it does make a lot more sense to use the phrase emotionally abusive  when we're talking about adults to children.  When we're talking about two people who are choosing to be in a relationship, then I would talk more about how are we working together? How are we making plans? How are we giving each other that feedback and telling each other the truth?

 

33:38

about the things that aren't working for us or that are hurtful to us or, you know, it's about having a voice and also for both people to learn how to listen to each other. So I would encourage all of you to make that commitment to nonviolence.  But don't be don't, you know, if you make mistakes, don't be so hard on yourself.  Be accountable. You know, if you feel guilty for making a mistake, the guilt is the is

 

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the motivation to be accountable, to change, to keep working on it. I hope this was helpful to everyone. Let me know if you have any other perspectives. I hope this kind of fills in some of the information that might've been missing from the other episode.  But I'm always willing to learn. I'm always interested if people have other perspectives.  This is something we talk about a lot in the couples therapist inner circle.

 

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you know, a little bit in the,  in the  Facebook, the Couples Therapist Couch Facebook group, which  is for therapists. You can always join that. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks.  Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP or click on the link in the show notes to learn more.

 

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Thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy.  I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time.  Bye, everybody!