Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.
In this episode, Shane discusses Beyond Fairy Tales with Dr. Mark Karris. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.
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In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Mark Karris about his new book, Beyond Fairy Tales. Mark is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) with plenty of experience working with youth, families, couples, and individuals. Beyond Fairy Tales is all about helping couples find clarity, do the work, and build a lasting relationship. Hear his thoughts on Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), the role of research in couples therapy, dispelling myths about relationships, common types of attachment styles, and how to move from blame-based perspectives to mutual understanding. This episode covers everything from EFT to attachment styles. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:
Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:
This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.
Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/
Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new
Please note: Transcript is not 100% accurate.
Dr. Mark Karris 0:00
This gets into sort of Beyond Fairy Tales. Why? Just want to keep it real. I just want to be honest that this stuff is hard, that even in the EFT community, like hey, sometimes even as us as EFT trainers, or like, we get divorced
Intro VO 0:19
Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors and relationship coaches, to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now your host, Shane Birkel
Shane Birkel 0:36
Hey everybody, welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in, and thank you for your patience. As we've been taking a break for the last few weeks, and I'm excited to come back into 2025 releasing an episode every single week. Every Tuesday, you can expect a new episodes, and just so grateful for all of you, so grateful for the ratings and reviews and the messages that you've sent, and really, really grateful for all of the guests who come on to the show and share their wisdom and continue to help all of us as couples therapists just become better and better. And speaking of that, this is a great time to join the couple's therapist inner circle. If that's something that you've been thinking about, you can try it out for a week. I mean, there's tons of training. I come on to a live call twice a month. We talk about cases. You can get feedback on the cases you're working with. You can learn more about working with affairs using EFT, all kinds of different topics. I'll leave a link in the show notes where you can get a lot more information about what that's all about. But if you join right now, you can get seven days for free so you can try it out, see what it's all about, and see if it's a good fit for you. But I'd love to have you join. This is a great time to join right now for the next week, and let me know if you have any questions about that. This week, I'm excited to share with you an interview that I did with Dr. Mark Karris, and he is the author of the book Beyond Fairy Tales, a couple's guide to finding clarity, doing the work and building a lasting relationship. So he and I talk all about the things from his book about how to work with couples, and I think you'll enjoy it. So thank you so much. And without further introduction, here is the interview with Dr. Mark Karris. Hey everyone. Welcome back to the couples therapist couch. This is Shane Buerkle, and today I'm speaking with Dr. Mark Karris, author of the book Beyond Fairy Tales, a couple's guide to finding clarity, doing the work and building a lasting relationship. Hey, Mark, welcome to the show.
Dr. Mark Karris 2:51
Hey Shane, great to be here. Looking forward to the chat. Yeah,
Shane Birkel 2:55
thank you so much for coming on. I'm looking forward to talking about your new book and but why don't you start with telling everyone a little bit more about yourself. About
Dr. Mark Karris 3:03
yourself? Sure. Well, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in San Diego, so full time private practice there was teaching at Point Loma University for for a few years as an adjunct. Then I started to realize adjuncts don't really get paid a lot. So while I love doing the work and it was so rich and rewarding, I just switched to full time private practice and doing some writing and speaking and workshops and stuff. So yeah, specialize in couples therapy and then specialize in religious trauma. So I have a few books on religious trauma or deconstruction, reconstruction, journey, whatever people want to phrase that. And so two real, real passions of mine. This probably makes sense, because I have a Masters of divinity and I'm an ordained pastor, though I haven't pastored in a while, so I have a rich story when it comes to my own religious trauma, so that that piece makes sense. And then couples therapy, I was sort of catapulted into that passion, probably 2010 when I moved to San Diego because they have a rich EFT community. And once I was introduced to EFT, I never looked back. I mean, I have cheated on EFT, and I have many other lovers, but I really, really appreciate EFT. And yeah, it that's where the couples therapy niche came into play. Yeah,
Shane Birkel 4:42
that's great. You and I were talking beforehand. This is your the new book. Is your fifth book. Is that what you said, Yeah. And is this your first relationship book? Yeah,
Dr. Mark Karris 4:53
this is the first relationship book, which was a breath of fresh air, because it was the first book I. Uh, really, where there was no God talk in religious trauma talk. And so it was nice to just focus on couple relationships and neuroscience attachment theory. And one of the biggest reasons for writing it was I just wanted a book that I thought I wish was in the hands of every one of my couples before they actually came in, or would help support the work I'm doing. And so a lot of themes in the book is really my heart, and maybe probably some of the emphasis I have in the couples experience.
Shane Birkel 5:35
Yeah, that's great. And, you know, I often think that when I'm working with or I'm often think, you know, I'm like, why don't you go look at this chapter of this particular book when I'm working with this couple, and then for the next couple, I'm like, Oh, why don't you go look at this chapter in this particular book? And I often think to myself, like, I wish I just had my own, you know, my own book that you know, would sort of take them through what I want them to know going into the work together. And that makes a lot of sense. I, you know, I think that would be helpful, even if that's the, you know, the only thing that came from it, if I wrote a book, was that they, all my clients, could see it. That would be
Dr. Mark Karris 6:13
huge. Yeah, you know, you do point to an interesting practice. You know, what I like to do, and I'm nervous saying this, because I don't know if it's legal or not. I think we're allowed to take one chapter from a book, and it sort of be ethical, but I have a lot of PDFs as books, and so I'll just, for some reason, telling couples to read a full book. It's like, it's too much, and a lot of it could be extraneous information. So I have my like, arsenal of chapters from many books that you know, when themes come up, I just email them a chapter. And so I Oh, that's
Shane Birkel 6:53
a great idea. Yeah, nice. I
Dr. Mark Karris 6:56
don't know what the authors, but think of that, right, right? I don't mind doing it for my book, just putting it out there, guys, well, I
Shane Birkel 7:03
feel like it's good. It should be. They should think of it as good marketing for their book, right? You're giving, I think, chapter, and then the couple can buy the whole book once they experience it, right, sure, sure. Why don't you tell us a little bit about how you approached your book, you know, with that in mind, especially, like, you know, because I think, I think that's true in a lot of a lot of times where, you know, couples will begin to read a some kind of therapy book or whatever, and they, and they, they either get overwhelmed by it, or they feel like, you know, I'm not sure if this is a good fit for us or whatever, but You know, so how did you approach sort of writing your book when you started?
Dr. Mark Karris 7:45
Well, I just wanted, I knew I wanted to hit some key things that were so important to me. And I would say, if there was a pie chart, EFT is a big part of that. But I don't like I'm sort of anti tribal by nature. It probably comes from my religious trauma background, and I do feel that there's sort of a natural tribalism when it comes to different modalities. For example, John Gottman, he had my book and was offering to write an endorsement granted if he agreed with the material. He liked a lot of the material, but when it really came to the EFT stuff, he couldn't do it. At the end, he said, You know, I appreciate your work, but I couldn't, I couldn't endorse it. Now, listen, he's like, you know, Standing on the Shoulder of Giants here. So no, no knock on him. But it's so interesting that I have experienced that in different modalities, whether it's the EFT community, the got my community, ifs I mean, but that makes sense. You want to be really passionate about your approach and being a purist and getting to the different strata within the the modalities, as far as trainers and stuff. I mean, you have to really fully buy into it. But going back to my anti tribal nature, I mean, I have a whole chapter on just focusing on the self, which is different in a couple of relationship book. But within that, I combine self compassion work with Act work, particularly in regards to values and inner child work. So I, you know, I have Stan tacking quotes from him and Terry real and Sue Johnson. I mean, all kinds of different authors and models Mago therapy. So I just wanted to, I don't care about being a purist. I care about what's most helpful. So obviously, that just falls under the umbrella of an integrative approach. So I just wanted to write this book. And, yeah, attachment theory flushing that out. I think negative cycles is a part of like, I want couples to understand what's kicking their ass so they. Can, they can come against the enemy. But believe it or not, John Gottman, that was the number one issue, why he couldn't endorse the book. Because he said, Mark, there's no research on negative cycles. And I was like, and because of that one issue, he couldn't, he couldn't endorse it. And I was like, what negative like I'm thinking like old fashioned systems theory, like feedback loops and stuff. How could this not be important for couples to get so I started to ask myself, this is obviously after I wrote the book. Is couples understanding the negative cycle really important? Is it really, you know, efficacious for them to find a secure relationship. So that's a side sort of comment.
Shane Birkel 10:47
Yeah, well, this is, to me, this is one of the problems with therapy as a whole, and I don't know what the solution is. I'm not taking a position, but there is this desire to make everything backed by research, and I understand the value of that and the importance of that, but at the same time, we're talking about things like relationships, emotions, things that are very hard to quantify. And I think, you know, you know, the the human experience doesn't always fit into a nice, little, researchable box that you know can explain things. So, you know, I think that's something that we're up against a lot where, you know, these therapy models will, in my mind, do do a great job of, sort of like, laying out things that are going to be helpful for couples, and oftentimes it hasn't been necessarily backed by research or or research that a scientist would, uh, necessarily feel was enough. So it's an, it's an interesting thing in my mind.
Dr. Mark Karris 11:54
Yeah, that's a that's a good point. And even with the research, when you now, I'm a big fan of the EFT research. Obviously, it's very robust, but at some point I wanted to think and look at the research, and I think it's different. Now, I think they're trying to get more multicultural aspects there. But I remember in the beginning, you know, 90 something percent success rate, and seven to 10 sessions and but when you looked at the research, they were with moderately distressed couples. They were with mostly white couples and heteronormative couples, right? So to put that and say, Well, this is kind of the way it is for all couples across time, and you could count on EFT because of the research. I mean, we have to look a little deeper than that. Again. No, knock on EFT. That's one of my primary models that I work from, but just being honest about the research. And, yeah, honesty, you know, I think of training, and I think I would love more honesty, like even in training it I get it, like getting people hyped and passionate, but this gets into sort of beyond fairy tales. Why? Just want to keep it real. I just want to be honest that this stuff is hard, that even in the EFT community, like hey, sometimes even as us as EFT trainers, or like, we get divorced, like, I know many who have, like this stuff, relationships are really hard. And I wanted to go beyond fairy tales. And I want that approach. I want to approach when I teach, sort of this dialectic of, hey, this is the reality of it. But let's, let's move towards change and secure relationship. And these are some of the amazing principles and practices we can get there, but there's no getting there. There's no static state of perpetual bliss. It just does not exist. So that's a little bit of the emphasis on my book and dispelling some of the the myths. I mean, granted, I take one chapter of that. But if people can get past that, there's plenty of secure attachment building principles and practices. But that's part of the existential philosophical part of me, that's and I'm seeing so many couples so unhappy, and I see this mechanism, the scapegoating mechanism, Hey, you're the problem, but we're missing some of the harsh realities of our own existence that if there was a pie chart, yeah, listen, I don't want to minimize your partner is driving you crazy. But what about the fact that we're we don't have as much community as we used to have, and the ubiquitous sense of aloneness and the existential dilemma purpose that we're missing. And there's other pieces of the pie chart that are contextual, that are not always talked about or raising children in this fast paced, hustle and bustle culture, we could feel an ache for so many different reasons. Right? But I find some couples are like, no, if only you did a, b and c, I would be happy. Yeah,
Shane Birkel 15:06
yeah. Well, I love that, you know, I was reading through the first part of your book. And, you know, I think that that's a really, you know, you start with a huge amount of compassion. I think that's the intent of sort of saying like the the relationships we see in the media, the the idea that you're going to meet the right person, and everything's going to fall into place, and it's just going to feel so easy and perfect. There's a level of compassion to say that's not real, that you know that relationships take work and they take effort, and if you're struggling, that doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong, and it's an opportunity to move into compassion for each other, for yourself, and to begin to approach the conversation from that place, and no longer just move into the blame of if you just changed, I'd be fine if you're doing this wrong. You know that that we probably all do with our partners, but to Sure, sure, but to you know, open up the conversation for a lot more possibility. And hope you know, for them,
Dr. Mark Karris 16:11
I couldn't agree more, there's always the caveat. And I share this in my book. There's a degree of you know, when we talk about abuse, it's a no brainer, like we're not talking about, like, accepting anything of that nature. I make that very clear in the book and outside of abusive behaviors and abusive relationships, yeah, there is a sense in which, why would I expect you to be my perfect partner? Now, we do it on an unconscious level. But if our parents like or even that sort of the trope now of like, good enough parenting, 30% Why would I expect you as my spouse to get it 85% you know, why would I expect you to always be attuned and be there for me the way I need when I gaslight myself sometimes when I don't listen to the different parts of me. Hello, ifs and I can oppress and marginalize voices that are in there, not really listening and hearing them, and getting distracted and focusing on other things. Like I'm not always present for myself, but I would expect like it's a huge thing when you know, now, listen, I understand the pain of not being shown up for it's a partner. It's legitimate, but I think there's something about these compassionate, existential principles that can reduce suffering, because we're not expecting perfection. We're not expecting our partner to save us, but we can expect our partners to support us, and there's a big difference between the two. Mm,
Shane Birkel 17:49
hmm, yeah, yeah, that's great. And can you say a little bit more about that? As far as you know, what does that mean to be start by taking responsibility for myself, if that's what I'm hearing you saying, you know, before I you know, it's not like I'm just saying, like, you know, if my partner just hugged me more, then I'd be fine in my life. It's sort of like what I'm making up. And you can tell me what your perspective, sure, sure is, like, I need to take responsibility for my own emotions. Of like, what happens for me with my partners and giving me a hug, like, first and foremost, understanding myself before I approach that with my partner.
Dr. Mark Karris 18:28
This is I'm very passionate about this. I wrote a research paper on Emotionally Focused therapists, Emotionally Focused Therapy and integrating self compassion work. And at the time, I got some pushback because, of course, there's so much emphasis on CO regulation, but you're bringing up an important point, what happens when our partners can't co regulate us, when they can't be there, when they're a source of our trauma? And I got pushed back because I was emphasizing some self regulation, and that was sort of anathema. But of course, you know Richard Schwartz, you know he has that. I think the book you are, who you've been waiting for, like, Yeah,
Shane Birkel 19:14
makes it even for Yes, who don't know. He's the founder of internal family systems, ifs rights, yeah,
Dr. Mark Karris 19:22
yeah. And so that's his whole emphasis, which is more self work, self love, really tapping into self. And you know, you're the one who needs to rescue yourself in a way. But I take a both end approach. I do emphasize co regulation above all else. I mean above drugs and, you know, every other maladaptive way of coping. It's what I'm aiming for in therapy. But I'm also a realist, and that's where there's the emphasis on, well, what do you do in that moment? We expect kids to grow up and kick them out of the nest and flap their wings and have. A degree of ability to regulate their emotions, right, to have a degree of confidence to work stuff out on their own and not fix it for them. But somehow, we have emphasized so much CO regulation to the neglect of sort of, no, there's inner work that you can do too. But again, I get some pushback, and they might say, Well, Mark, even if you were emphasizing self regulation, we'd still emphasize co regulation. Because, you know, even monks need other months, even if they were to meditate or something, it would be powerful then for them to connect with their their deceased mother, or some imaginal figure that or God, or some, some other, forget still co regulation at the end of the day. So, I mean, it's a both end approach, but I do take, hey, we're in charge of us. We have to make choices. Can we offer ourselves some self compassion. Why would that be bad to emphasize self compassion when there's so much rich research on it that can mitigate against self criticism and shame spirals, dysregulated states. Why would that be a bad thing to learn how to put your hand on your heart and while your partner is over there, and you're both in distress to say, this is a moment of suffering. This is really hard. That common humanity piece of there's a lot of couples who struggle with something different, similar. And how can I just be kind to myself in this moment? And if you have that extra piece of you know, it must be hard for my partner too. I mean, that's that extra Zen ish Jesus kind of piece of keeping them in mind and extending them compassion, because they're imperfect, just like we are, and there's probably struggling just as we are,
Shane Birkel 21:54
yeah. And to me, it's very empowering, right? I'm taking responsibility for my my own well being. I'm not waiting for my partner in order for me to feel okay in the world. And you know, I think it's because, you know, when I need that kind of CO regulate, when I need any sort of regulation, the CO regulation from my partner, whoever I'm seeking it from might not be available at that time. They may either be out of town, or they may be really upset in their own emotions and not able to do it or whatever. Yes. So, you know, on some level, we all need that self regulation as a as a starting point, and it's a conscious choice, right? If I never get that from a partner, I can make conscious choices about what I'm going to do with that kind of situation, and that could be a hard thing to work through. That's right, but, but it's to me, part of it is kind of a timing thing, like if I can get that from my partner some of the time, and I know that they love me and care about me, and can provide some of that CO regulation. I also have to understand that there might be times where I'm not going to get it from them, and, you know, I have to feel that sense of empowerment, that that's okay. And what are the way? What are other ways I can self regulate totally?
Dr. Mark Karris 23:15
And this gets into, you know, much of the the book is focused on attachment theory and looking at couples through the attachment lenses. And it's sort of linked to what you're saying, what we've been talking about. I have an anxious attachment style, terrible fear of abandonment. Mom, drug addict, she passed away from a drug overdose, a father, mentally ill. I mean, my great grandmother died in a mental hospital, a lot of chaos, and my wife has an avoidant attachment style. And so I had to learn this lesson, because there were times where, first of all, I had to deal with my own unconscious expectation of my wife to I would I use the word save me really, to give me in the here and now what I didn't experience and then and there with my parents, to really re parent me. And I realized, as I was sort of poking and wanting connection my wife with an avoidant attachment. Well, I kind of in the book. I don't use a attachment, I use relational tendencies. So with avoidant relational tendencies, yeah, it would feel constricting, it would feel smothering, it would feel too much. And there just be times where she's exhausted and she's, you know, taking care of work. She's working hard, and our son, and I'm just wanting a hug, and I'm wanting closeness and cuddles and just tell me how amazing I am. All that is really good stuff. But I think it was the degree, the degree in which I wanted it, and my inability to regulate my emotions at some point, because she was. Able to give it to me, thus me poking and her getting upset, and then her wanting to even withdraw even more, and then that's creating this sort of I call it a pullback and protest cycle. So I get it. It makes a lot of sense through attachment theory too, but I'll tell you, one of the most liberating things I've could have done was finally come to a place where I said, Mark, see beautiful the way she is. I don't want to change her in that way. And first of all, you're not going to change her. She has avoidant tendencies that's probably going to last for a while. I have anxious as much work as I have done. When she says, I need space. I still feel that anxiety and like, it's sort of, I need space as code for, like, I want to divorce you. Like, that's where my nervous system still goes a bit, right? You know, it's just real. And I came to a place like, Mark, no, it's okay, let her be. She'll come back. She will. She loves you, and this is a time for you to regulate your own emotions, tap into. Richard Swartz, you are the one you've been waiting for. And yeah, how can I show up for myself, my capital S self, which is there and pre exists trauma and is able to regulate myself in those times where my wife just can't. I think it's healthy, it's okay, yeah,
Shane Birkel 26:22
I think there's a dilemma that many couples face, you know, especially when they show up in our office, where one partner might feel like they need to more connection, more talking about the problem, more, you know, the pursuer energy. One partner might feel overwhelmed by that, and they need more space, and they need to, like distance themselves. And it's like that they're both stuck, and they're both waiting for the other person to give them what they're what they want, and they're if they continue to look at it from the standpoint of, you know, I'm waiting for my partner to give me what I want to feel safe in this relationship, they're going to be stuck forever. And so the only logical conclusion in my mind is that each person has to take responsibility for their side of it. I
Dr. Mark Karris 27:13
couldn't agree more. And sometimes it, you know, in session, it feels like one partner is totally not carrying as much weight as the other. I think, you know, there's some dynamics like that, certainly in the patriarchal culture and the mental, emotional burden that I see so many times that a lot of my female partners have. And so there's other lenses and approaches to work on but yeah, I think acceptance first, like really getting to know your operating system and your partners goes a really long way. Like someone who has an avoidant relational tendencies, they're not trying to be a jerk. They're not trying to shut you out, sort of in a way, like, yeah, I want to really hurt them. Sometimes people can act as self at worst and not self at best. But sometimes it's just, if there's someone who has abundant relational tendencies, their heart is, I just don't know how to do this well, when you're coming with me, with this talk and this emotions and like it feels so overwhelming, and I get a deer in a heads lights, kind of experience, right? And
Shane Birkel 28:24
I want to clarify, because I Yeah, because as part that I read in the book, just to make sure everybody understands, sure you know that, I think it's you could say if I get it wrong, but it's each person's responsibility to learn the operating instructions for their partner, right? It's not like, and to me, that would be like trying to help them avoid right and wrong conversations. Like you're you know this is the right way of being in a relationship, and you're doing it wrong. It's more like, let me understand how my partner operates and let my my partner needs Son, listen to how I operate and like the more we try to understand that, the more we can work with each other in a way that works for the other partner, not just like me, working how I think works, because it works for me.
Dr. Mark Karris 29:15
Yes, yes. And really that gets into there's what I call in the book reflective empathic compassion, which is exploring our partners inner and outer experiences with a beginner's mind, sensibly tuning into their feelings on an embodied level and thoughtfully offering care and comfort that truly align with their unique needs and desires. There's something about helping couples slow down and really being curious about their operating system. And one of the benefits of that if we can get through and of course, we have to help de escalate to a degree, and it's going to take a little bit time, but it's so powerful for them. To Oh, you're wanting so much connection. First of all, connection is healthy, but I see when I go away, it triggers such a deep sense of abandonment. But why? Oh my gosh, when you told me in session about what happened with you and your mom and how your dad treated you, and of course, you would feel that level of abandonment and such a trigger when it comes to rejection. Oh my gosh, this brings such I'm so sorry. I didn't know I thought you were just like criticizing and nagging me, and I just felt so like I had my own negative narrative about you, but when you sort of link it to your operating system, and where the origin story of this, gosh, it I have it changes the game. The same with someone who has avoidant tendencies, disorganized, it just, wow. That's what you went through and and this gets into a philosophical discussion, which I don't do so much in the book, but I touch on it really free will and determinism debate, but I didn't share too much, but who we are is an amalgam of every moment that preceded us, from the minutes to the hours to the days to the years. If I would have had the same experiences you had, I would have had the same outcome, right, the same early childhood experiences shaping your prefrontal cortex and your ability to regulate your emotions like that's another form of compassion I have, because that could have been me, but I had a whole different set of experiences that preceded the very moment in which I was born. And this very like, we're just the stuff that came before generations, tracing back to stardust. Like, how could that not invite compassion when we think of it that way, even if we think we're awesome and we can regulate our feelings and we can do yoga and meditate for hours, our ability to do that is really what came before that, and before that moment in our early childhood experiences and peer groups and social historical situations and and income levels and race and all those contextual factors make us who we are today. So I can't really take all the credit for who I am, yeah, or judge you Well, right?
Shane Birkel 32:33
And I think it helps people move away from shame. You know, as far as like anybody who would have gone through what you went through would be struggling in this way, you know, to help them see that it's not because they're the problem or because they're a crazy person or because they're not trying hard enough, like there's some reason why it makes sense that they're struggling in This way. And I think that's a huge in my mind, like, that's a huge part of the process in couples therapy, because as soon as people feel like we are accusing them of being the problem, you know, it's much more likely that we will receive the same defensive energy as their partner probably feels oftentimes. And I think, you know, as a therapist, it's important for us to let them know that we have that compassion, we have that understanding, we see we can validate their experience and what's going on for them, so that they're open to I think that's the creating some openness or some safe space for them to maybe learn how to do something a little bit different or to understand it. Yeah,
Dr. Mark Karris 33:46
yep. And the way I'm talking, it can come across, you know, pretty heady. But in session, you know, it's, this is about embodying these principles. This is about bottom up work in the moment, you know when something arises. You know, psycho education is best done in the moment, in the you know what the way couples are interacting and the feelings that are kind of coming up, so it's but to embody compassion, to to validate their experience, which is really the only way they're going to de escalate, is deep, profound empathy and validation and reflection, and through that, yeah, it's embodying compassion in the first email, the first phone call, all the way through, which hopefully will translate, as I can model to that compassion. And I think this was Dan Wiles, when his intervention sort of to model how to communicate in the moment when a partner can and to model those compassionate responses, which hopefully they can sort of get for each other. And then I can say, Hey, can you practice that in your own words? And they could translate it and have it occur outside of session. Yeah.
Shane Birkel 34:59
Yeah. That's great. And I want to you know, you've talked about the attachment theory. You've talked about, you know, the compassion for people's experiences, the learning each other's operating instructions, but tell me more about what, what types of things people will find in your book if they're not reading through it.
Dr. Mark Karris 35:20
I wanted to make the book very practical too. So I gotta say, there's probably over 100 pages of just practical. What does this mean now? What do we do from a play and novelty to getting into a little bit of stamp attack and sort of landings and launchings. Love tank, you know, film, love tank. But how to do it practically eight. I have one section that's eight steps to for healing conversations that's based on the attachment injury resolution model. So I try to make it really practical. You know, I have one activity that I call even, you know, it's small, but this, this is sort of the sensibility that I have to one intervention of attach of art. Sometimes it's important to share art with one another, which is a RT attachment related texts. I think texts go a long way, right? So whether it's expressions of love and affection or appreciation and gratitude, support and reassurance, seconds and thoughtfulness and Catholic apologies, using texting as a way that really gets to the heart of the matter and as a way to connect with your partner, and I didn't share this in the book, but I there's a newer approach for the younger generations called pebbling. Did you hear a pebbling? No, I haven't heard of it. It's it's where with the younger generations, it takes its cue from penguins who give pebbles to their romantic partners a gesture of love. But in the spirit of texting couples, sending memes to each other, apparently, is this king, and it's a way that some people really connect with each other, just by sending memes with each other as a way to I see you. Isn't this funny? It's a way to connect. I'm thinking about you something we could share in. So there's a lot of different principles and practices for connection. In my book, there's also one that I call a priority compassion. And priority compassion is being genuinely sensitive to our partners aches and lungs with a dedicated effort to alleviate and address their primary concerns, right? And that can change from week to week. But how can I keep in mind, what is it? What's your main concern lately, right? How can I really be intentional about loving you in that way where it's not like one static state of well, this is your love tank. This is your love language. No, it's much more complex than that. I want to and sometimes there's things that fall outside of Love Languages, right? I talked a little bit about that in the book, like for some partners, and maybe in whether step parent situations, when you love my child, that is a way that I feel really loved by you, right? So that's not a common thing to think about when you think of different love languages. But you know, there's different ways to step outside of the box and really think about our partners unique experiences. What have they been longing for? You know, where one partner might say, you know, you say you love me, and, yeah, you're trying to give me a I don't want a hug right now. That's not what I need. What do you think I what have I been saying for the last month? Well, well, I don't know. I tear the garbage and I work hard and, you know, that's how I look. No, what have I been saying? Okay, well, yeah, you've been talking about me doing more chores around the house and taking more of the load and responsibilities. You're right. I haven't been doing them, but I don't know. Is that really important? Yes, it's really important. Like that. That's a window to my heart, right when you're taking more of the load, and we can share in these responsibilities. You know, fair play buddy. Nod to the fair play book. But yeah, these are different ways that I talk about in the book to really help form secure, loving, respectful attachments. A lot of relational work there, not just sort of existential philosophical, you know, pick your own selves, selves up by your bootstraps, effective dependency is what I'm after.
Shane Birkel 39:48
Yeah, yeah, that's great. And would you say that? You know, I have this experience sometimes where, like, one person's willing to read the book, or at least, that's the. Port that like, Hey, I'm the one who's reading the books and doing all the stuff, and my partner's not very interested. Do you think your book would be helpful for someone like that? Or do you have any advice for trying to get your of the other partner more involved?
Dr. Mark Karris 40:16
Well, I think that the research shows this on self-help books and romantic relationships that women are. They purchase these books way, way more than than men. But I take that seriously. I mean, I tried to write the book in a way that appeals to both genders. I could be very smart, but very heart filled down the earth. And I've also, these past couple of weeks, I've been turning my audio book, just came out for for this book, and so what I've been doing is creating psycho educational videos from the book, the audiobook that's really, really neat. It's sort of visual with, you know, videos of couples and, you know, graphics and cool esthetics to sort of help folks who really don't want to read, and just, I'd rather watch it and hear it. So that's what I've been doing for with for the content of my book. And folks can check that out. If I think, if you just search my name and be on fairy tales and stuff,
Shane Birkel 41:24
yeah? Well, yeah, that's a great way, you know, if, if I'm reading a book, let's say, and I want my partner to take a look at it, it's, it feels like a big commitment to say, like, hey, read this whole book, whereas, yeah, if it's, if I could just share a one minute video that talks about like a particular skill or something that resonates, you know, that feels like a much more reasonable request for me to say, hey, check out this video that, yeah, is related to the book I'm reading. And that's right, it's right from the
Dr. Mark Karris 41:59
book, but it's got visual and video, and if people were interested, the YouTube channel is called relationship wisdom and religious trauma recovery. So it's, I'm just being myself, and those are two things I'm passionate about. And so you can find different videos there, and more where would they find that in the way, that's the YouTube channel.
YouTube, yeah, yeah. So where these videos I'm talking about say
Shane Birkel 42:30
that again, relationship wisdom and religious. Relationship
Dr. Mark Karris 42:34
wisdom and religious. Trauma, recovery. Dr. Mark Karris, and there is, there is a, I created a workbook for couples too, to take that in chunks and make it really, really practical. And there are, and there's also free discussion questions, both for individuals who are just reading it as an individual, and if you want to read it as a couple, there are a couple discussion questions. So really trying to make it very practical, nice.
Shane Birkel 43:01
And do you think this would be a good book if, if I'm a therapist working with couples that they could sort of be going through while I'm working with them, while they're while they're going to couples therapy. And of
Dr. Mark Karris 43:13
course, yeah, that's why I wrote it. I wish every client would read this before, but I want to honor approaches. You know, I've done some training, did a year long training in transformative couples therapy, which is not a very well known model. It's kind of new. It's through David Mars, and he was in the aedp community for a while, but they don't focus on the negative cycle at all. He did endorse my book, and he read it, and thought it was very helpful. But I can, I'm just saying that because there could be models where, hey, that's just not our stick. We don't focus on attachment theory or, you know, the negative cycle at all. And so I get it, I understand. But for a lot of couples, I think it would be, you know, I guess I'm biased. I would say I think it'd be great for them to read as they're in therapy, or before they were to go into therapy. Well,
Shane Birkel 44:13
yeah, and it's cool to hear you say that there's a lot of tangible, sort of, like, you know, structured activities that they can do in the book, you know. So that's right, if I'm a therapist, if I familiarize myself a little bit with with your book, you know, and then I'm working with a couple, I could say, hey, you know what the activity on page 72 would be perfect for you guys this week, you know, based on what you're talking about, or something like that, yeah, or the video, yeah, use it, pull it from whatever they're going through at the time, help it meet what they need.
Dr. Mark Karris 44:46
That's if you're a couples therapist, you will find plenty of nuggets for your couples, plenty of activities. Another one is, I call the scuba diving encounter, this practice that can really. To change the way that that couples interact with each other, and by asking three major questions, you know, setting aside time to really kind of connect with each other, navigating the deeper waters of each each other's lives and really about intimacy. And to me, see where they can slow down and ask, what is happening in your world? How are you feeling and what do you need from me? Powerful questions. But that's where I get into not EFT, but transformative couples therapy and David Mars's seven channels of experience. And it's a whole different way, I promise you, if you've never heard of TCT and David Morris work, this idea of the seven channels experience will take your practice to another level of of really powerful ways to communicate with each other by tapping into these different channels of sensation, emotion, energetic, movement, auditory, visual and the imaginal channel, not just emotions, not just thoughts, but, yeah, it's just, it's powerful work. So I think that'd be a wonderful introduction. And David Mars, I just created a video on this. So this would be another example of, if you looked up seven channels within my YouTube channel, you'll find a great video on this. And so I really want to make it practical, psycho, educational, helpful for couples therapists and couples as well.
Shane Birkel 46:31
Yeah, that's great. That's great. And is that it sounds like the seven channels would be very helpful for people where the, you know, the whole emotional discussions don't resonate really on a high level for them, you know, like, it sounds like a lot of different ways of accessing what's going on. That's
Dr. Mark Karris 46:53
right, it really opened up whole new worlds. Instead of, you know, some people don't that's not their main channel. But imagine noticing and discussing the energy as you feel in your body, whether a lightness or heaviness or movement. I mean movements a classic one. Hey, I noticed, you know, you're clenching your fists, or, you know, your head just went down, as your partner like but just noticing that and checking in with them were auditory, you know, listening to the tone and pitch and rhythm of speech and the sweetness of your partner's voice, and imagine a couple, for example, hey, when you told me about your day, I could hear the stress in your voice. It sounded strained, and I can tell you were overwhelmed, like picking up on the different channels of your partner's experience as a whole way to enter into their world. It's beautiful.
Shane Birkel 47:43
Yeah, yeah, that's great. Well, thank you so much. I know we're getting close to the end. Anything else you wanted to say about your book or about the topics we're talking about today? I
Dr. Mark Karris 47:54
just really appreciate your time. I love talking about the stuff really passionate about couples, work and yeah, folks can find my books wherever books are sold. The audiobook just came out that's on Audible Amazon. And I'm a sort of a social media dinosaur. So I have, I'm on Facebook, and I have some kind of Instagram account, but I'm just, I never really got into the social media beast. It's a lot to feed.
Shane Birkel 48:26
Yes, yeah, no, that's great. Did you just mention your website?
Dr. Mark Karris 48:29
MarkGregoryKarris.com,
Shane Birkel 48:31
okay, I'll put that in there, in the show notes as well. And I know your books on Amazon, the title once more is Beyond Fairy Tales. But yeah, I think there's a section on your website as well with, with all your books, people can take a look at and sure stuff like that. Yeah, great. I know pop YouTube channel in the in there as well. Yeah, awesome. Sounds great. Thank you so much. Shane, yeah, thank you, Mark, yeah, this has been great. I really appreciate you taking the time. All right. Thank you so much, Mark. I'm so grateful for you coming on. I learned so much. And thank you to all you listeners out there, definitely go to CouplesTherapistCouch.com that's the website for the podcast. You can find all of the previous episodes there, and you can also find out more information about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle, which is open for sign ups right now. This is a great time to join. If you join right now, you can get seven days for free, so you can get in there and check it out, see if it's a good fit for you. We have live calls where we talk about cases. We have hundreds of hours of training that are available right when you sign up. So if you're somebody who wants to take your therapy, your couples therapy, to the next level, and are ready to dive in, then it's a really good option, and you can find out if it's a good fit for you. So thank you all so much. I'm really grateful for all of you. This is Shane Birkel, and this is The Couples Therapist Couch. Bye, everybody!
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