205: Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) and Trauma with Leanne Campbell

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, we’re talking Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) and trauma with Leanne Campbell. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 205: Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) and Trauma with Leanne Campbell

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Learn more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

In this episode, Shane talks with Leanne Campbell about all things Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) and trauma. Leanne is a Speaker, Writer, and EFT Trainer who co-authored the book A Primer for Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy (EFIT) with Sue Johnson. Hear the benefits of EFT, why isolation is traumatizing, how to gather information before diving into experiences, the CARE model to focus on in initial sessions, and how to be careful when working with trauma.

This episode covers everything from EFT to trauma. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

  • Does EFT work for individuals as well?
  • What is EFIT (Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy)?
  • How much data should you gather before sessions?
  • What does EFIT look like in a therapy session?
  • How much should you explain the benefits of EFT and EFIT?
  • What is deepening?
  • How long do EFT or EFIT take?
  • What happens in Stage 3?

To learn more about Leanne and check out her books, visit DrLeanneCampbell.com

Check out Leanne’s previous episode on The Couples Therapist Couch: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/blog/079-eft-and-attachment-injuries-with-leanne-campbell-and-david-fairweather

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below: 



 Show Notes


What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new


Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

Leanne Campbell 0:00
We know also from all kinds of studies that people can navigate all kinds of stress, including trauma relatively well with resilience when they have a key other or others that they can rely on as a source of support.

Intro VO 0:19
Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now your host, Shane Birkel.

Shane Birkel 0:33
Everyone welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel. And this is the podcast, it's all about the practice of couples therapy. I'm a licensed therapist, and I started this podcast because I when I began working with couples, I felt like there was a lack of information out there. And I've just started interviewing people in the field. And it's been a great way to learn more about how to do couples therapy. And for that reason, I created a free resource if you're interested, it's totally free. It's called working with couples 101, how to get ready for the first session, how to gather information during the intake, how to help couples communicate more effectively. If you're interested in that there's a link in the show notes. You can go get that for free. It'll be sent right to your inbox and I'm really excited to share with you the episode this week I was able to speak with Leanne Campbell, Dr. Leanne Campbell, who's a speaker, writer, EFT trainer and co author of a book with Dr. Sue Johnson, called the Primer for Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy. So we talked a lot about using Emotionally Focused Therapy with individuals using it for trauma. Most of us know that Emotionally Focused Therapy or EFT is a great model for working with couples But Dr. Leanne Campbell has done a lot to bring the work of EFT for individuals to the forefront, which I think is really important and we talk all about how to do that during the episode. So without further introduction, here's the episode with Dr. Leanne Campbell. Hey everybody, welcome back to the couples therapist couch. This is Shane Birkel, and today I'm speaking with Dr. Leanne Campbell, speaker, writer, EFT trainer, and co author of a book with Sue Johnson called a primer for Emotionally Focused individual therapy. Hey, Leanne, welcome to the show.

Leanne Campbell 2:26
Thank you. Thank you for having me. Great to be with you.

Shane Birkel 2:30
Yeah, thank you so much. I'm really excited to talk about our topic today to talk about Emotionally Focused Therapy in general, to talk about trauma, also about working with individuals in EFT. But why don't you start by telling us a little bit more about yourself? Sure.

Leanne Campbell 2:46
Well, as some of your listeners might know, and certainly you're aware, Dr. Sue Johnson developed an amazing model called Emotionally Focused Therapy as a graduate student at the University of BC in the 80s. And I had the good fortune of landing at the University of Ottawa as a new graduate student, and she was a professor soon after that. So I was a therapist and some of those original studies looking at the empirical efficacy of EFT for couples, and have followed and worked with Sue since that time. Indeed, as we often say, in our trainings, we've been working with individuals, couples and families in this model from the beginning, but it wasn't until 2019 when Sue wrote attachment theory and practice that effect was more formally introduced as an aspect of the model. And then in 2022, we published the first text, as you mentioned, thank you cultivating fitness and, and it was published by Routledge. And since then, over the past few years, we've been doing lots and lots of trainings in the context of individual therapy with a big focus on trauma because we believe that EFT more generally, and most certainly EFT or a couples and individuals is well suited to trauma. Yeah,

Shane Birkel 4:12
and obviously, most of the listeners will probably know that Emotionally Focused Therapy is really well known for working with couples. But you're saying that even from the beginning, it's been a really effective model for individuals as well.

Leanne Campbell 4:27
Yes, and we've addressed well, not just and we have collected all of the data and Stephanie, we've and some of the other fabulous researchers from the University of Ottawa and abroad, Paul Greenman and Robert Allen, have led the first empirical study looking at the efficacy of E fat as an outcome in terms of emotional disorders, such as anxiety and despair. Question. And there are three sites. We were one of those sites, and that had therapists participate, just like we did you know, some time ago now in working with couples. And we taped a recession. And those data are now being on analyzed with promising results already. So stay tuned. publications are coming. Yeah, that's

Shane Birkel 5:24
great. And can you give everyone just a little bit of an overview of what are we talking about when we're talking about EFIT, emotionally focused individual therapy? Sure,

Leanne Campbell 5:36
thank you. Well, EFT is considered a relational model, whether we're working with individuals, couples, or families. And some years ago now, Sue devised this brilliant acronym, and way of thinking about what the therapist does in every single session, which is there a set of macro interventions, the event tango, or the EFT tango, which is comprised of five moves. So regardless of whether we're working with individuals, couples, or families, we use the tango to propel the process forward. So we think about the Tango is what the therapist does. And we think about the three stage model as the process of change and growth, again, whether we're working with individuals, couples, or families, so in an effect context, we only have one person in the room. In a couple of contexts, of course, we rely on our key resource, which is the partner, and that can become very complicated and difficult, at times, especially at the outset of therapy. So part of what we do in couples therapy is we call it de escalation deescalate the cycle help our couples to understand what where they're getting triggered, what that looks like how that impacts the relationship and creates distance in the relationship. In the context of individual therapy, we do something similar, we help our clients make sense of and understand the patterns that they get stuck in, in terms of shutting themselves off from their internal experience, being unable to then coherently and directly share themselves with key others, and essentially being alone in the world, which we know from the great wisdom of the father of attachment, John Bowlby, and now 1000s of studies in attachment science, that isolation is inherently traumatizing. So, of course, we know also from all kinds of studies that people can navigate all kinds of stress, including trauma, relatively well with resilience, when they have a key other or others that they can rely on as a source of support someplace to learn where they can feel safe and secure, and and share their vulnerability and be soothed in the arms of those they love and trust. You so even the same sorry, I didn't answer your question. We use the same set of in short interventions, but we don't have a partner in the space. But we still rely on key other sorry, Shane, you're gonna ask me? That's

Shane Birkel 8:26
good. That's what I was gonna ask about, as far as you know, what does that look like in the session? Somebody comes to you and they're experiencing that? Well, either anxiety or whatever they're reporting or a sense of loneliness or something like that. And how do you use attachment and use EFT in order to help that individual without any other people in their life? They're all

Leanne Campbell 8:52
right, exactly. So we first help them identify this pattern that they get stuck in. We help people move into what Bowlby would describe as frightening alien and unacceptable emotion. And for some of our clients who've endured trauma, and perhaps are sharing their stories for the first time, even providing a coherent, narrative can be difficult, and things can be feel very scrambled and chaotic. So part of what we do is slow everything down with our voices and our presence, and as temporary attachment figures, key instruments in the process. And we help people order their emotion. And when people can order their emotion and make sense of their emotion and have that validated in the context of a safe haven therapeutic relationship, that they that emotion becomes more mallet manageable, more tolerable. And then we move to deepening on sometimes that doesn't happen for a number of sessions. In the event primer Sue talks about a wonderful client that she caught Honey in the primer, of course, that's not her real name. And she talks about working with Hani for a number of sessions to just do move one of the tango, which is to really put up a mirror for Hani and help her to understand the way that she manages in the world emotionally and how that plays out relationally. And then as she sits with Hani, and they begin to order her experience, both in terms of her narrative, but also her emotion, then she can move into deepening. And then we look for key others, Irvin Yalom has a great phrase that we get to know the key characters that live in our clients minds. And from an attachment point of view, of course, we're focused on key attachment figures, key others who have shaped the use of self, the use of other and the way that people have developed these strategies for managing effect and their capacity, sometimes when people have injured chronic developmental trauma, that these strategies become automatic, and reflexive, and are outside people's awareness. So once again, when we slow everything down, we can help people begin to see themselves in new ways begin to discover their internal experience in new ways. And then we set up what we call encounters move three of the tango. So in the context of couples therapy, we have the partner in the space. And we want to create what we describe as corrective emotional experiences or bonding events. In the context of individual therapy, we want to do the same, we want to create corrective emotional experiences in stage one of the model, specifically. So for example, and perhaps Henny has a key other in her external world that she has a hard time believing in or relying upon, for good reason, given her history, she's not had experiences of trust and safety. And we might test that in the therapeutic context by creating an imaginal encounter. So we make the person real in the space, we get to know that individual, we get to see that individual, we make clear that we're there to because again, as Bowlby and attachment science have taught us, nobody encounters vulnerability alone. So we make it really explicit with our presence and our voice. And we might even say, even when we're working on screen, and I'm there to be there in the background, so So you stay really still with you and begin to touch some of that vulnerability that's never been safe to touch never been okay to touch, and nobody to turn to what do you imagine if you just glance at your partner, and then that gives us all kinds of information as well in an experiential way, not just an intellectual way, but the capacity of Hanny's partner to be there for her. And then we process that and move forward with the tango, we asked what was that like to share? What what happened? What happened inside of you, as his eyes touched yours, or whatever the case may be. And we get a sense of whether there has been an impact. And if there has been, we want to highlight that, celebrate that and amplify that. And move by move the tango in

Shane Birkel 13:37
when you're talking about key others. Are you talking about? Is that have to be a significant other? Or could it be family members or other people as well? Sure,

Leanne Campbell 13:50
it could be. It could be family members, it could be a spiritual figure. And early on, one of the things that we talked about in initial sessions is that we can maybe think of ourselves as guests in a person's home. And we want don't want to just hear about their experience. We actually want to walk into their experience with them. And it's in that context, when we actually walk in to the gardens of my beautiful client Sierra's grandmother where I get to see and feel and hear and know about her relationship with her grandmother. There were various ways that she imparted culture and language and community and provided what Marian McCullen sir would talk about as an island of security in the face of experiences that we're not secure, but instead were characterized by neglect and starvation and abuse and trauma. And both in her current con Text and her historical context and in the intergenerational context.

Shane Birkel 15:08
So, in that example, when you get to that point where you're entering into the world with them, and you're talking about key figures in their life and experiences that they've had, would you have already gathered a lot of data before it let like the background information of what they grew up with and what their family was like, and their attachment situation and their upbringing? Would you have already gathered that information before you get to that point where you're sort of going into the experience of it?

Leanne Campbell 15:40
Yeah, such a good question. Yeah. It's a great question. Because the way that I interpret and hear your question is, do I first assess, quote, unquote, capacity, or window of tolerance to actually walk into an experience? And so yes, we're paying close attention to that. So in the primer, we talked about something called the care model that we want to use to tune into and find focus in initial sessions, but also pay attention to throughout the therapeutic process. And care is an acronym that stands for context. So tuning into the person's current context, their historical context, and potentially, as well, their intergenerational context to really get a sense of the world that they live and have lived in. And the way that other aspects of their history continue to impact them told and untold stories. And then we of course, attachment as key EFT as an attachment based, humanistic experiential therapy, we tune in to the key pivotal experiences that have shaped them, we think developmentally. So that's right. In the case of Sierra, I have walked alongside her, the session that I was referencing is a scene from session three. So that's right, I already have a lot of background about the neglect and poverty. She talks about having been in addiction for years. So I have some sense of that. But I also have a sense that she's on the other side of her quote, unquote, addiction to use her term, three years now. And she's she's motivated, she feels like she has another chance to life and is doing really well. She's taking care of herself, in terms of, you know, daily living, and she has some positive relationships, some that are also strained, and in particular, her key other has shared that they would like more closeness. So yes, you're asking a good question. And then the other element we pay close attention to, and especially in initial sessions, but throughout the therapeutic process is our relationship, that therapeutic alliance, which is always key, but especially key when working with trauma, when our clients have not had positive experiences of trust, or minimal. And then of course, emotion, it's an emotion focused therapy. So but you you also ask a good question about I, the way I'm listening is is it's about timing. It's about pacing, which we're very careful about always, but especially in working with trauma. So just returning to that scene with Ciara, in earlier sessions, session, one or two she shared about an inner child. And I'm curious about that, because key from an EFT point of view, is to create strong bonds that allow in the context of couples, therapy, relationships, and the partners within that relationship to grow. The same overarching goal is so for effective, emotionally focused individual therapy is to help our clients tune into themselves. You know, sometimes we talk about come home to themselves, find themselves in new ways that allow them to move into secure attachment with themselves and with the key others who can help them grow. We grow and evolve in as our key others put up mirrors for us and provide us with opportunity to begin to discover and grow ourselves. Yeah,

Shane Birkel 19:41
I'm wondering, you know, if Ciara contacts you, for us as therapists, like there's someone who contacts us and says, you know, my partner really wants more closeness in their relationship. I'm thinking about individual therapy. How do we help determine what Whether we should do individual therapy, or we should do couples therapy, or perhaps both? Great

Leanne Campbell 20:05
question, well, if you have the luxury of working in an amazing group, like I do, then a combination of both is often helpful. It really depends on so many variables, including stability, I think in terms of was one of the things that we think about around readiness for a couple of therapy is whether the the relationship has the capacity to manage what is going to be asked of them in an EFT context. So part of what we want to do is help our clients secure attachment is basically defined as you know, these core elements that we know from all the couple therapy studies, being able to tune into our internal emotional world worlds, our fears, our needs, our longings share that coherently indirectly, with a key other in the context of combo therapy, our partner, and give and receive love. So in the context of couples therapy, there's a challenge on both sides. And, and in initial sessions, with some couples that takes time to really slow everything down, get them to understand the cycle that they get stuck in. And sometimes it's useful to also have each of the partners or potentially one of the partners in individual therapy where they can begin to find themselves in new ways, which then give them opportunity to share and risk themselves in new ways. In the couple context. I guess, in terms of a principle, I would say that whenever there's a reliable other, that we can use as a resource in therapy, we want to do that, either manually, or, you know, in person.

Shane Birkel 22:03
Is does that it's good. Yeah, I like what you said earlier about the idea of safety, you know, where if people have had traumatic experiences, and to be honest, we probably all have had traumatic experiences on some level or another, it's going to be difficult for them in the first part of the process where you're talking about even just slowing them down with their motions, you know, that's going to start feeling really scary and vulnerable for people to do. And perhaps, depending on the situation, there's a place for someone just to be able to do that individually, and have the seat that would feel more safe for them for whatever reasons, and maybe in other situations or in another in another part of the work. It'll be good to do that with a partner there as well.

Leanne Campbell 22:58
Huh, yeah, exactly. Yeah, we can think about EFT as a process of discovery. And sometimes it's scary to, you know, let go or dissolve some of these protective strategies in the presence of a key other somebody that we really, really, really care about, and value that sometimes it's easier to do that in the context of an individual therapy, circumstance that gives us maybe a bit more space to be vulnerable, and begin to explore some of these key pivotal experiences that have shaped the way that we are in the world with our partners that we maybe don't want to talk about. And in that context, but we recognize that those circumstances are impacting this relationship.

Shane Birkel 23:57
Yeah, absolutely. And to go back a little bit. I'm curious what you meant. You mentioned the word deepening, that that was part of the process. And I wanted to ask you to explain what that would mean. Sure.

Leanne Campbell 24:11
Thank you. Yeah. So if we think about walking into Sierra's garden, and really joining with her, and and making it visceral and alive, we're talking about deepening the experience. We're talking about level of experiencing basically, which we know from all the couples therapy studies, that in order to really get sustainable gains, we want our clients to be in a level of experience of four and above and that's based on an experiencing scale that was done by Jen Lin and colleagues and maybe some of your listeners are familiar with gentleman and focusing but the basic notion is that in levels 123 People are talking about their Experience, people are talking about memories, they're not in the experience. And as our clients windows of capacity or tolerance expand in the context of a, say, therapeutic relationship, be it in couple or individual therapy, then it's, it's easier for them, it's less risky for them to move into their vulnerability and move into their experience in present process, or in the context of beginning to share some of their earlier experiences, as Sarah did when we walked into her childhood garden, her grandmother's garden. So in stage one of the model, we can anticipate that that's not going to be easy to do. And that's going to take time. And part of what we do is we again, as we put up a mirror for our clients, and walk alongside them into, you know, their schools, their neighborhoods, their communities, their relationships currently, and walk alongside this couple in the relationship currently, then. And as we are curious, so to do they become curious about themselves and about each other in new ways. And that expands capacity creates flexibility in the cycles or the patterns that they've been stuck in. And then as we move into stage two of the model, which is what we describe as more second order to change and really restructuring, self and system, our clients have more ability, more capacity to move more deeply into emotion or experience and stay there for longer periods. And it's there that when shame emerges, such as it was all my fault, I must have deserved it, that all these things but bad things happen to me must mean it's about me that that can really be challenged in a way that creates felt shifts, trauma is transformed people find their agency, and this organic growth process that we're wanting to kickstart really takes hold in an explicit way that allows the therapist to do more following than leading.

Shane Birkel 27:20
And can you go over stage three really quick? Sure. Sounds like it's I know, this is a brief summary. You could probably talk a lot longer on these. But

Leanne Campbell 27:30
yeah, of course, yeah. So in stage three, so thinking more about a Sierra, for example. And in stage two, we find all kinds of opportunity for her to challenge this prevailing view of herself that was present at the outset of therapy. And then in stage three, so we can really think about stage three as being integration and consolidation, where we celebrate the gains that the couple has made, or celebrate the gains that the individual has made, where we highlight, and elucidate those gains to be sure that our clients not only have a, an intellectual understanding of them, but about sense where they can begin to really embrace and see and feel and know themselves and key others in new ways. And we want them to paint a picture of their future in a way that allows them to capitalize on this more expanded integrated view of self in the context of individual therapy. And this solid relationship base, there has the capacity to grow partners in the in the context of couples therapy, and maybe in the context of trauma, and especially, you know, when maybe there's been an awful event, a traumatic event, we can also, you know, some version of quote unquote, predicting relapse or preparing for symptom, aggravation is what we often talk about in the context of trauma. So people can be proactive about that anticipate that recognize it not as a setback, but as a part of the process and the lifelong growth process.

Shane Birkel 29:18
Yeah, it's very empowering at that point, that they can make a plan, you know, and sort of expect that this could this, this will probably happen again, and that's okay. And here's what you can do when you you know, get to that point. That's great. I'm wondering, you know, when you're in the beginning stages of working with someone, how much are you explaining the idea, the concepts of this, or how much are you just doing it, right, like, I can imagine sort of, like, times where I've asked someone like, yeah, and tell me more about how that makes you feel, and they're like, why do you want to know what I feel right? Like, what does that have to do with what we're talking about? So I'm just curious how much you're sort of explaining the the why this is beneficial to people?

Leanne Campbell 30:07
Yeah, such a good question. Yeah. And just one other point that I make about, you know, working with trauma. Many people in the field talk about trauma, or starting loss, grief doesn't always include trauma. But trauma always includes grief, there's some sense of loss, either lost years lost opportunities, lost relationships. So that's also key that comes up throughout those three stages, but particularly so at times, and stage three, where people then begin to re navigate and renegotiate some of these key relationships with parents, for example, or it might be with grandparents, or it could be with partners, whatever the case may be. So now, yes, you asked me. So how do we actually acclimatized our clients, or help them to get to know what this is really all about, and why we're doing this. And so maybe let's stay with the example of Sierra. So part of what happened in that in that scene in that moment, is I asked her about her inner child, and she and she said, there's two images, one of a tiny little girl, alone and lonely, starving, neglect, poverty, no food in the house, the smell of pot and beer, I can still smell that pot and beer. And notice as she shares, you can really feel it. And then she said, then there's this other image, this newer image, this more recently emerged, of being cared for and loved. And the end, that's where we walk into her grandmother's garden. And I make the decision to do that, because part of what we want to do, and especially in individual therapy, when we don't have a partner in the space, is to resource the client. So I recognize that there's a resource here, this beautiful grandmother, that I can now know and feel she talks about her hands being firm, but soft. from hard work, she talks about the smell of salmon, and various traditional ways of cooking over an open fire. Her language, her culture, singing the river, cleansing with cedar, and all kinds of beautiful, beautiful imagery that we can easily evoke in the context of later sessions, and that Sierra can more easily and readily evoke, as we've now walked into this experience between sessions over the course of therapy and beyond therapy. So then to return to your question when we begin to move forward in the stage one process, and we begin to enter some of these more difficult scenes scenes of being alone and lonely, starving neglect that she's given us a picture of early on and we've bookmarked, then we can evoke grammar as a resource, we can remind her once again, that I'm there too. And then we can help her to move into some of this vulnerability. And that's right, oftentimes, people query like why. And if I do, I'm going to fall apart. If I do that, it'll be so traumatizing. And it's then that we might say something like, I hear you. Of course, it's never been say so but then that's what this is all about Sierra is to give you opportunity, opportunity that that you didn't have that that beautiful little 10 year old, in, you know, the basketball court near your grandma's garden, not too far away, but a bet she's not there, but you can feel her you can feel her presence in the distance. So you notice how I resource her with my voice and I have all of that context. And then I say and that's what this is all about. To give that that beautiful little girl that 10 year old girl opportunity permission capacity to feel what was not safe to feel, of course it would have never been safe to fail. But not alone. It we never do that alone, not not alone. So you notice how that's some version of the EFT therapists and the EBIT therapists psychoeducation we do it through validation we do it in present process and and which gives clients agency but also it's not a mystery. We're not trying to, you know, trick our clients into something. It's a collaborative process. And then we could say something like as you're able, as you stay really still with you what happens inside of you as you stay really He's still with you. And that's a version of deepening move to have the tango that we've been talking about. And then we want to set her up to share that with a safe father. That could be older, wiser Ciara, it could be the therapist, we could even evoke the grandma, to set up opportunity to feel what was intolerable, unacceptable to feel in the presence of a safe other. That's the corrective emotional experience that we want to create to choreograph. And then we want to process that and move forward with the tango. Because, again, you know, we talked about assessment and treatment merging. And we want to determined whether that Landon whether that beautiful little 10 year old was able to take in the eyes of her grandma, or the voice of some other key other than touch of this older, wiser Ciara, who's there on the court to and then we want to celebrate that and really highlight and contrast the difference between that that experience and this new experience. And we do the tango over and over and over again.

Shane Birkel 36:10
Yeah, how long will I'm sure it's different for everybody and every situation is different. But, you know, when you're talking about going through these stages, what would you say is sort of a typical length of time that it might take someone? And

Leanne Campbell 36:24
it's such a good question. You know, when I when I think about trauma, and our goal, our overarching goal is to basically restructure yourself and system how clients move into which is on a continuum, of course, a felt sense of security with self and others, you know, the these prototypical strategies didn't, you know, evolve. Oftentimes, they've evolved in the context of chronic developmental trauma. So that's going to take time, so we talked about and not being, quote, unquote, dose dependent. That's the other thing, that there might be multiple scenes, that our clients could move into multiple memories of trauma and loss and abandonment and neglect. But we of course, don't have to revisit all of them. There's consistent themes that show up being alone, lonely, no sense of belonging, no, no place to call home, no sense of safety in the community, or in the broader socio cultural context where there's discrimination and racism potentially. So it's really variable. And, and oftentimes, people do a piece of work, and then they take a break, and they live their lives. And they grow. People grow both within a session between sessions and over the course of therapy. So part of our job, as therapists is to really create focus and momentum so that we can begin to breathe some hope into the therapeutic process, and especially early on, and then to structure it in a way that affords opportunity for ongoing growth within session between sessions over the course of therapy and beyond. And that's right, maybe there's times when people will do a piece of work in individual therapy, and then maybe the therapist will decide, you know, this would be a great time to perhaps, work on, you know, your relationship on creating some of this growth within your partnership.

Shane Birkel 38:36
Yeah, that's great. I think it's good to be accepting of everyone's individual process, and how different that can be right. And if somebody needs to take a break from therapy, that doesn't mean that they're stopping their progress. That's just the next step in their in their progress. So I think it's a great way to look at it and to give people acceptance and to honor what people need at the time. You know, so appreciate that.

Leanne Campbell 39:05
Yeah, exactly.

Shane Birkel 39:07
Yes. Yeah. Well, I know we're getting close to the end of time here. Anything else that you wanted to mention, as we wrap up the conversation?

Leanne Campbell 39:17
No, I guess the only thing that comes to mind as you were sharing so beautifully about really being respectful, people's place and space and pace. And what's right for them is we just finished doing a training. And the organizer asked me the same question, kind of last last words. And what came to mind is one of the questions from one of the participants is what happens when somebody is really quiet, and, you know, has never had the safety even to have a voice in a therapeutic context. And it just reminded me and, you know, doing all kinds of trainings over the years, just for us to have grace, grace with growth. have grace with ourselves as we learn about EFT and experiment with the model, and grow with the model. And you know, this is what we always say as well. And in fact, there's even evidence to support it that, you know, when we engage in this amazing process, and help our clients grow, so to do we grow.

Shane Birkel 40:24
Yeah, that's great. Where can people find out more about you? And I mean, if you want to mention any thing about trainings that you do, or anything like that, but at least your website for sure, yeah. Yeah,

Leanne Campbell 40:38
yeah. So our website, and of course, for sure, I'm doing lots of trainings with Sue right now that are available on the isoft. website and through pesi, US and Australia, and UK, and yeah, with lots of different organizations throughout Canada, and the Europe as well. Or sorry, throughout North America, Europe as well. So yeah, look forward to joining with people, and learning and growing together. Great.

Shane Birkel 41:11
Great. Yeah. Thank you so much. Also, I wanted to mention, I forgot to say it at the beginning that you and I spoke on it was episode number 79. So if people enjoyed this conversation, they should go back and listen to episode number 79 as well. I loved our conversation that time. It's been a few years, I think. And yes. So I wanted to have you back on. But I'm really grateful for you coming on. And I hope that we can catch up again at some point in the future. I'm

Leanne Campbell 41:42
grateful for you and all that you give to our community. Thank you so much. All

Shane Birkel 41:48
right. Thank you so much, Leanne. I'm really grateful for you. Thank you. To all you listeners out there, definitely go check out her website and get a copy of her book that she co authored with Dr. Sue Johnson called A Primer for Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy. What a great conversation. If you enjoyed that conversatio Dr. Leanne Campbell and I also spoke on episode number 79, about Emotionally Focused Therapy. So you can go back and check out episode number 79. As I mentioned at the beginning, you can go to the link in the show notes and get a free course on working with couples one on one, how to get ready for the first session how to gather information during the intake, how to help couples communicate more effectively, I created this totally free. Check that out, especially if you haven't joined the inner circle already, I think it'd be a really good thing to get started with. And you can also join the Couples Therapist Couch Facebook group if you haven't already, and go check out the videos on YouTube. If you are a therapist who's interested in learning more about the practice of therapy or if you're someone who just wants to learn more about how to have a good relationship. Definitely hit Subscribe so you can get all the latest episodes. Thank you so much. Also, if you're interested in the Couples Therapist inner circle, you can click on the link in the show notes. But thank you so much for for watching. I'm Shane Birkel. This is The Couples Therapist Couch!

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