Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.
In this episode, we’re talking PTSD and the Unconscious with Heawon Hake. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.
Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new
In this episode, Shane talks with Heawon Hake about the Collective Consciousness, Intergenerational Wisdom, Spirituality, and PTSD. Heawon is a Social Worker, Psychotherapist, and the Author of Daughter of Korean Freud. Hear Heawon’s personal story with abuse and how she got interested in psychotherapy, how PTSD ties to the unconscious, how to feel more empowered, how she approaches suicide and death, and the fine line between blaming the victim vs. feeling a sense of empowerment about our own life.
This episode covers everything from psychotherapy to Collective Consciousness. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:
For more about Heawon, visit KoreanAmericanPsychotherapist.com
Check out Heawon’s book list at KoreanAmericanPsychotherapist.com/BookList
Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:
This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.
Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new
Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.
Heawon Hake 0:00
What happened was my first husband he raised his eyebrow. And when he did that, it threw me back into that time when my brother used to abuse me. And whenever he did abuse me that's what he did say move. Right so, because I didn't know that was unconscious, I ended up ruining the day. Now that I made a conscious. If it happens again, I can do something about it.
Shane Birkel 0:30
Welcome to episode number 195 of The Couples Therapist Couch.
Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now your host, Shane Birkel.
Everyone welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is your host, Shane Birkel. And this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoy the episode and you want to be part of a community, then definitely join the Couples Therapist Couch Facebook Group, that's completely free. Obviously, you can always join the Couples Therapist Inner Circle, which is the paid, basically an amazing supervision group where we talk about couples therapy, therapists ask questions. There's a ton of course material on working with affairs working with Emotionally Focused Therapy, doing relational life therapy, all kinds of different course material that you can get access to. And I'm really excited I'm I'm sort of revamping the whole inner circle, there's a new business option, which is about building your couples therapy practice, which could be an add on to the clinical side of things, if that's something that's a good fit for you. So go over to the website and check it out. You can get a lot more details and information. I don't want to take too much time talking about it here on the podcast, but it's something you should definitely take a look at if it's feels like that could be a good fit for you. And the episode that I'm sharing with you today. I was able to catch up with Heawon Hake, who's a social worker, psychotherapist, and author of the book, Daughter of Korean Freud. She talks a lot about collective consciousness, PTSD, spirituality, and how many of the things that we do are unconscious and the ways in which we grow up and our families sort of create the things that we do unconsciously or the way that we behave in the world unconsciously. So it was an amazing conversation. I'm excited for you to check it out. And without further introduction. Here is Heawon Hake. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and today I'm speaking with Heawon Hake, social worker, psychotherapist, and author of the new book, Daughter of Korean Freud. Hi, Heawon, welcome to the show.
Heawon Hake 3:05
Hi, Shane. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me.
Shane Birkel 3:09
Yeah. It's great to have you. I know much of your book. And as well as your work as a therapist is about healing from trauma. So I'm looking forward to getting into that and talking about that today. And I just I just heard that you got great reviews by Publisher's Weekly. Is that right? Yeah,
Heawon Hake 3:28
I am. I'm over the moon. Actually. I got a in all four categories. For indie authors. Yeah. So I'm really psyched. Yeah,
Shane Birkel 3:38
that's great. Congratulations.
Heawon Hake 3:40
Thank you. Good. Well,
Shane Birkel 3:42
I can't wait to talk about the book. But why don't you tell everybody a little bit more about yourself to start off?
Heawon Hake 3:48
Okay. Hi, everyone. I am here one. I am here to talk with Shane about PTSD, spirituality and unconsciousness. I am from South Korea. I came here when I was 22 years old. I decided to leave South Korea actually to escape the abuse at home. And when I came here as an immigrant without speaking the language, and without knowing anybody, I went through some more traumatic situations. And after I got Master's, my work was at psychotherapy center. And we served about 300 mentally ill residents a group home and I worked there for six years, and we had multiple murders, suicide and robbery with the guns. So to just to show you I have a lot of traumatic experiences PTSD. Yes. And the book I wrote is really about how I how I was able to heal using different therapeutic techniques. ethics and spirituality. Yeah,
Shane Birkel 5:03
and I'm really curious about your experience in South Korea. How old were you when you left and came to the United States?
Heawon Hake 5:12
So I was 22 years old. My abuse started when I was seven years old, by my brother, who is older. And the book titled The Korean Freud is that my father was the first generation of social workers in South Korea. And he became very prominent, he wrote more than 10 bucks. He worked with Congress to develop national health. And so he he got so prominent that he was called as Korean Freud in 1980s. And yet he, you know, ignored what was going on at home. Good abuse. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I don't want to go into too much because we have the topic to cover. Yeah.
Shane Birkel 6:05
Without but that was really, do you think that was part of the reason why you decided to become a psychotherapist yourself? Actually,
Heawon Hake 6:15
you know, I, my father had a lot of books. And one of the books that I took out from his library and read was this guidance counselor who was working with troubled kids, and how he was able to touch the kids. And that really touched me so hard, so deeply. So I was in my third or fourth grade, and I decided that I was going to become that. Therapist myself. Yeah.
Shane Birkel 6:47
Yeah. Well, great. And, you know, I do want to talk about the talk. I know you have a lot to say about the topic. But I'm curious what you mean, when you say, PTSD and unconsciousness, if you could talk a little bit more about that. And
Heawon Hake 7:02
I think that in our work, we obviously deal with materials that are available in our consciousness, or become available in consciousness. So for example, if I use my example, I was having a date with my first husband, and things were going great. But all of a sudden, something happened that my mood changed. And I tried to get along, and I just couldn't get out of the mood, and ended up ruining the day for both of us. The life went on, and about 10 years later, reading this book on trauma. And that's when it dawned on me about what happened that day. What happened was my first husband, he raised his eyebrow. And when he did that, it threw me back into that time when my brother used to abuse me. And whenever he did abuse me, that's what he did say move. Right. So, because I didn't know that was unconscious, I ended up ruining the day. Now that I made a conscious if it happens again, I can do something about it. Right. So that I think that's what we do a lot. Right. We work with the clients to help them to make connections.
Shane Birkel 8:29
Yeah, right. Great. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Heawon Hake 8:33
The thing is, though, what happens when we cannot do that? When PTSD stays in unconsciousness? What do we do? And also depth psychology? I don't think you actually, you episodes talked a lot about that is that psychology studies and analyzes unconsciousness, and they say that it's not possible for us to accurately interpret our unconsciousness. So I'm gonna use another example. I have a couple who comes in after the wife was found having an affair. So the couple is committed to make their marriage work. And the husband is desperate to get reassurance from his wife. And he wants her to tell him that I love you. And the wife says that she does feel the love for him. She does want to say that and yes, she cannot say so. Why do you think that is? Is that because that because she has PTSD? She was abused by her father. And so if she says that horrible words, she will feel like it's too risky for her to to get that vulnerable. Or is that from her culture were hurt in her culture people do not expressed their affection like that. So we don't know, right? We don't know if that's PTSD or a cultural thing. So that's what I mean mean by PTSD and unconsciousness that, how do we deal with that?
Shane Birkel 10:16
Yeah. And it's interesting in that, to take that example, the person themselves often doesn't even know why they're struggling to say, I love you, or whatever the situation is, you know, because they haven't brought it to the level of their consciousness. I mean, I can, you know, relate, I've gone, you know, I can I feel this at moments, you know, I start getting really upset or angry about something. And sometimes I'm not even sure why or like, you know, I think that I'm upset at my wife or something. But it feels much more complicated than that, because I think there's so much going on. Right?
Heawon Hake 10:52
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, you know, neuroscientists, they tell us that we have about five to 7% consciousness, or and then 95% to 93%. On consciousness of our brain. Yeah. So I educate my clients. So because we cannot be sure the interpretation, I cycle educate them about that. I think it's important for clients to realize that, you know, a lot of times they think that they know, their partner so well, especially like if they personalize why their partner does or say things that they they know, you know, I know why he does this, or I know she's doing this to bug me, you know, I have a client who is 50 years old wife, she volunteers to help her neighbor who is 80 years old man. And spending time that her husband doesn't feel comfortable. He feels like she's spending too much time. And he believes he's sure that she is doing this to aggravate him. Right. So I, again, as I said, I educate them, both of them, and then bring out the fact that she lost her both apparent and buyer. She was at the at home with them at the time. And she was not able to help. And she had to watch them perish and fire in horror. So to me, my interpretation about this is that she is grieving, and helping herself helping her free by helping her neighbor. Am I sure? No, I'm not. I am suggesting that is a possibility, or a probability, which then expands her husband's consciousness that can help him become more humble, and more curious.
Shane Birkel 13:08
Right. Right. Well, and the interesting thing with couples, too, is that both people's unconsciousness are coming into it. So you're, you're talking about her reality. But there's also the meaning that we could make about his reality. Which is why why do you think that your wife doing something nice for another person means that she's trying to, you know, do something mean to you?
Heawon Hake 13:32
Right, right. Yeah. I mean, we can go into so many different ways. Right, right. And I think that's, that's a nice thing about including that 95% unconsciousness in our work. So to help clients get a better feel for 95%. I asked them to think about, like, I asked him questions, like, stop beating your heart right now. And they do that. Oh,
Shane Birkel 14:06
sorry, your heart from beating Yeah, yeah. Or
Heawon Hake 14:09
stop your blood from circulating, right. Like, they cannot do that either. Right. So several questions are like this. They begin to think, Oh, what is that mean? It's not like God or your partner or your parents are running your body? Who is running it? It's you. You are running it. Right. Until now. I think people are so separated from their body. It's something is happening to them. Right? They don't own that. It's them doing it. So talking about this, I included in PTSD symptoms. They say, Oh, this nightmare is happening. I'm going crazy. You know, it's terrible. still like nightmares happening to them? Or is it that they are making their 95% is creating this nightmare? For a reason? Right. Okay, so I will use another example. So I was having this repetitive nightmares. I'm in this big, large, dark, deep pool. And my brother is pulling my legs down to drown me. And I'm fighting with my Almight to get away from him. And so when I learned about this, that I create this nightmare, I was thinking like, why, why would I create this nightmare? And then it dawned on me that, you know, I, I need to master that situation. So, at 50 years old, I went out, and I learned how to swim, because until then I avoided anything to do with the swimming because that really happened in my life.
Shane Birkel 16:07
Oh, wow. The trauma was about being in a situation where you were swimming.
Heawon Hake 16:13
Yeah. And my brother was really putting me down. Yeah, right. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So realizing that and going out to learn how to swim. And then guess what happened? That may have stopped? Wow. Yeah. So it's a different perspective. Looking at PTSD symptoms.
Shane Birkel 16:37
Yeah. Yeah. And can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think there's a fine line between blaming the victim versus feeling a sense of empowerment about our own life, because I totally agree with what you're saying, right? I know, people in my personal life, who, who might have there are situations where it's almost like they're bringing more stress into the situation. They're creating, I think unconsciously creating more stressful situations for themselves. But there are also times where people are victimized. And, you know, it's not because it's their fault or something like that. And so I think, but I think it's important to be able to sort of talk about this further, in order to help people feel empowered, like your example for yourself.
Heawon Hake 17:30
Mm hmm. Yes. Yeah, what you're talking about is true. And that's gonna come up a little bit, again, with my twist, because I am Korean American psychotherapist. Actually, the part that I didn't talk about before is that I, I, you know, when I left Korea, I denounced anything to do with the Korean or Asian culture because of the abuse. And then when I came here, after my master's, I went to the Gestalt Center of Long Island. And distort theory incorporates so much of eastern philosophy, which led me to look at my culture with fresh eyes, and then ended up integrating both Western and Eastern teachings. So I think I bring that a little bit of, you know, twist, maybe. So I embraced all the things that I learned in America, the, the Western psychotherapeutic models, and then add that Eastern mysticism and teachings into what I do. Yeah. So yeah, so you know that that will come up about Yes, trauma happened, and people get victimized and there are things that happen. And I'm always conscious of ways to bring empowerment for our clients. Yeah. Right. So when I point out the impact of the trauma, you know, they are in pain. And then I also point out the power that they have in their 95%. Like, you know, when we get a little cut in our finger, the 95% goes to work immediately to start healing that wound. And the same thing is true for our emotional and mental cuts.
Shane Birkel 19:39
And would you say that the 95% only knows how to do it in the way that it's learned before. In other words, if we're emotionally hurt, then we seek to heal in what you know, in ways that may or may not be helpful for us based on what we've been before,
Heawon Hake 20:00
so it's gonna come up later on. Or if you want to do it now we can do it. It's, we have the 95% conscious unconsciousness, but then we also have collective consciousness. That is over the billions of years that, you know, that we got. And then we also have not only intelligent, intergenerational trauma, but also intergenerational wisdom. Yes. So all three of those unconsciousness that our at work, I think, helped us to be here today. And continue to learn and thrive.
Shane Birkel 20:45
Right? Yeah, absolutely. That's great.
Heawon Hake 20:48
Yeah. So, as you said, like, I am really about empowering the couple, and, you know, using the, the positive reinforcement, rather than negative reinforcement. And, you know, I am, like, I would like to see myself as end therapist, a and d therapist, not bot therapist. So before when I came here, I was about a therapist, like no Eastern, but Western therapy. Now I am western and eastern 5% consciousness, and 95% unconsciousness, and collective consciousness and intergenerational wisdom. Right, shifting a little bit, can I talk about suicidal ideation. And because obviously, with PTSD clients, we have a lot of that, yeah, going on. And I look at a little bit differently. Again, here, I look at suicidal ideation as not escapism or, you know, coward way of dealing with the difficult situation. Rather, I looked at look at that as a strength and agency. I mentioned before depth psychology. And according to them, how PTSD happens is because our inability to do anything during traumatic event. So that becomes, you know, that contributes to the birth of PTSD symptoms. And one way of dealing with our unconscious drive to feel powerful, during or after traumatic event, is to have suicidal ideation. So let me give you an example. I talk about this actually my memoir, saying practicing dying every day. So when I was being abused by my brother, physically and sexually every day, and my parents refusing to protect me, I felt trapped. Of course, I thought about running away 1000s times, but running away to streets meant that I will be I would be in similar situation, or worse. So as a way to get some sense of power and control was for me to have suicidal ideation, many different kinds. It was I thought that it would be up to me when to die. And how did I not have to my brother, right? That really kept me alive, I believe. So when we reframe so suicidal ideation, this way, we are able to tap into our client's need for the ability to do something like I had, this client came to me and she, she was like, she didn't want to say, but she ended up saying, like, I am afraid to share this with you about suicidal ideation, that you can just call the police. And like me up. And so I shared my idea about suicidal ideation, and which actually opened her up to explore how she can have what other options that she has to fear that power and control. Yeah, so yeah. So I'm not saying that I'm not against, you know, the current models that we use to work with clients with suicidal ideation. I would like to add this as a perspective.
Shane Birkel 24:45
Yeah. Well, I think it's very valuing of a person to say something like there's some reason right in this 95% unconscious. There's some rare isn't why it makes sense that you would be having these thoughts and you would be wanting to do these things. And it gives them a sense of reassurance or normalizing that it's not because you're crazy, it's not because you know, there's something wrong with you, it's because this is part of you that seeking maybe some control or something that you need
Heawon Hake 25:24
empowered in the situation, because when you, you know, like, if you are kidnapped, and you are locked up in a place, and there is nothing that you can do, you know, like having that ideation can give you, you know, that feel the sense of
Shane Birkel 25:45
power. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay,
Heawon Hake 25:49
moving on to another difficult topic of death. Work working with clients with PTSD, obviously, you know, bring up a lot of, you know, the topic about death, because they either experienced death or near death of themselves or their loved ones, right. So when we, when I tried to approach this subject, I see that so many people really don't want to go there. As if, if they just can avoid thinking about it or talking about it, that they don't have to deal with it, which is not true. The more they repress it, the more powerful their fear becomes. And I think that you know, when so let's say I experienced near death many times. And as long as I stay in disbelief, that death is a terrible thing. I think they're kind of like, really keep me as that fearful victim. And so dealing with or facing with a death in a conscious way, I think help us a great deal. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you heard of or have no of this. Zen Buddhist monk, Thich Nhat Hanh. Yeah,
Shane Birkel 27:17
definitely. Yeah, absolutely. This books, yeah. Okay,
Heawon Hake 27:20
so are you familiar about the example that he use the wave?
Shane Birkel 27:26
I'm not sure I can't. Okay. Wave. Yeah. So he
Heawon Hake 27:30
tells us the wave that when he goes back into the body of ocean, did it die, or the flower blooms and withers and disappears, did they die? When the spring comes, the flower is back. And the wave comes back from the body of ocean. So the figma Han, he shows how the life cycles and comes back. Right? And our body is like that wave? Or the flower? Yeah, so I use that those examples with the clients who have who have more creative side and they can take that example and do very well. If the clients are more logical side and they just can't get at that. Use that to imagine their that their bodies like that, then I use the science to explain that when this when the scientists dissect our body to the smallest particle and look with Magneto magnifiers what do they see? Nothing but energy. So we are made out of this energy, and energy is not destructible. So when our body dies, the the energy that makes up our body goes back into the where it came from, to come back into the next manifestation. Next form, right? So I use examples like that. And also, I try to gently bring up the fact that our body goes through birding and death, dying every moment of the day. So did you know that 3 million cells in our body explode into death every day?
Shane Birkel 29:42
No. Wow. 3 million, 3 million
Heawon Hake 29:46
cells. Wow. Yeah. And actually, because of that, that make room for new cells to be born here which regenerates every single day. And that's how we actually keep our body healthy. So can you imagine if we hold on to the dead cells? And do not eliminate them? Our body will go through great crisis. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I try to come up with different soft examples to help them to make peace with the idea of dying. Yeah. And when they are able to do that, they gain much more freedom from their pain.
Shane Birkel 30:41
So, instead of avoiding thinking about death, and suppressing those emotions, and thoughts, the way to bring it to consciousness and to face it, is to move into acceptance, I guess, about the fact that we are going to die. And to have some of these, I guess what you're talking about gives people hope, or acceptance, maybe is the word about the fact that this is just part of the, you know, part of life is death.
Heawon Hake 31:13
Yeah, and also, you know, you use the word normalizing before. So, again, when I was going through the trauma of facing death, like that fear was frozen in my being. And so when I was able to work through the idea of dying, and that that's okay, that doesn't mean that I am obliterated completely. And so that the fear was lesson that me die is not the ultimate evil thing. It's this cycle of the nature.
Shane Birkel 31:56
Yeah, yeah. Cuz I'm just thinking like, you know, what can people do with that? On a day to day basis? If you know, those thoughts, the fear of dying pops into our head. You know, I mean, it, you see it as sort of a mindfulness practice almost of trying to move into acceptance of the reality that that's okay.
Heawon Hake 32:23
Mindfulness that's used a lot. To me, mindfulness is the meditation to learn to be hearing now. And that's definitely helpful. The topic of death helps a lot with the spirituality. When I look around that, and know that everything that is in the in this world is energy, the same thing that made me made everything around me. And so when my body disappears, I may be back as the wind or the cloud, or it's the ocean or the or the stone, whatever that is all like interconnectedness. Yeah, yeah, entropy. Yeah.
Shane Birkel 33:12
And I think that's nice. And I hope that's true. But, I mean, there's, there's something valuable about grieving that our life to say, maybe I will be obliterated, and I won't have any memories of anything ever again. And that's okay, too, but it's okay to feel the sadness of my the loss of my life at some point.
Heawon Hake 33:38
Absolutely. That's where also the collective consciousness comes from. So although my me as one may lose that memory, when I go back, the collective consciousness continues on Yeah, intergenerational, right, the trauma or wisdom that continues on, you know, and yet, as absolutely, so, what I do with my clients is that we have four dimensions. I have physical, emotional, mental and spiritual. So the lower three, a human level, as a human, yes, we grieve. As a spirit, there is no grieving. Because Spirit is interconnected to everything. And yet because we do, we are having the human experience. We do go through that grief. Yeah, and that's absolutely valid. Right.
Shane Birkel 34:43
You know, we do the same thing in our relationships. Like there are a lot of things that I wish I had in my relationship that I probably never will. You know, and that's okay. It's okay to feel sad about that. But it doesn't mean I want to change my partner, you know, it doesn't mean, you know, something like that. It just means that, you know, there's a, I think there's a healthy sort of group. Same with facing death, you know, there's a healthy sort of grieving that needs to happen. Because once you do that you're no longer suppressing those emotions. And you can live more freely, and live with more joy and passion for your life because you're not sort of being stuck or held back by the unconscious, you know, fear of death. Right,
Heawon Hake 35:30
right. Yeah. Yeah. So I think all four dimensions, when all four dimensions work, well, you know, in tune with each other, I think we can achieve optimal health. Right, any any dimensions that we ignore, or repress or don't deal with, we're cause problem in our being, you know,
Shane Birkel 35:52
I'm really fascinated with, you know, this idea of the 95% being unconscious. And I think, you know, part of when I think about this for couples in their relationships is like, you know, oftentimes we take that unconsciousness, and we believe that we are, you know, experiencing something with our partner, but it's really coming from that 95% of unconsciousness. And I think, when we move it into the consciousness, it helps people move into compassion for themselves, and for each other, you know, to understand that there's a reason why these things are it's not because we're mean people who are trying to be hurtful to each other. It's it, there's really a lot more to understand about that, like you said earlier, like, the idea of moving into curiosity with each other, I think is so important.
Heawon Hake 36:45
So we mentioned a couple of times about collective consciousness. Carry you talk about this, when he had repetitive dreams of his streets, being filled with that people and full of blood. And he thought that at the time, he didn't know what this dream meant, and he thought he was losing his mind. And then World War Two came. So he coined the term collective consciousness, it's almost kind of like having superpower that you you can you have the ability to foretell what's to come, right. And I have that kind of personal experience as well. And we all have that in our 95% unconsciousness. So when I talk with clients, and you know, that they are aware of the their, their own PTSD, their own trauma, traumatic experience, an intergenerational traumatic experience, I also point out their collective consciousness that they got from their ancestors, that they may not, like the 5% brain doesn't know that they have this, and yet they do. And the more they learn to tap into their part, they will have so much more superpower for, you know, for example, and then also the intergenerational strength and wisdom that they have. So I really talk about a lot about, you know, the empowering them to tap into those things. And I use different examples for them to learn and then actually, like, have them close their eyes and imagine to connect their own this 95% unconsciousness, and the things that they come up with a pretty amazing stuff. Like with the talk therapy, it may take a year to get to somewhere, we're using this kind of model. With several sessions, they actually change, like they're even the definition of their face actually changes dramatically. And you can see something amazing. So I would like to invite the listeners to look into the spiritual journey, and Eastern mysticism that they can utilize maybe. So I compiled a reading list, that the books that I read along my spiritual journey, if some of the some of you are interested in looking at that, I will share you share that with you the link so they can go go to that link and see the book titles. Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah. So I you know, that will be my little gift for
Shane Birkel 39:50
thank you so much. Yeah. So if they want to learn more about all of that, then they can look take a look at the link that you're going to share. Yeah, out a lot more great. Yeah.
Heawon Hake 40:01
And if they want to communicate I have, you know, my website is KoreanAmericanPsychotherapist.com. It's easy to remember. Great.
Shane Birkel 40:10
Yeah. And if any buddy wants to learn more, they can take a look at those links. They can take a look at your website and the book list that you have put together. Thank you so much. And your book, obviously, they can buy the book. And yeah, which would be a great way to learn more about all these things that you're talking about. But I'm really I really appreciate you coming on here and talking about these things. Any other final thoughts before we wrap it up?
Heawon Hake 40:42
No, I appreciate you having me here. And I appreciate the fact that I was able to come here come to this country, and able to make my own life and have a successful private practice. So I appreciate all along. Oh,
Shane Birkel 40:58
that's great. Yeah. Well, thank you again. Hey, Juan, I really, really grateful for you coming on. And hopefully we can catch up again, at some point.
Heawon Hake 41:05
That would be great shame. You take care.
Shane Birkel 41:10
Thank you so much. Heawon Hake, author of the book daughter of Korean Freud. So grateful to have you come on the show. And thank you to all your listeners out there. So grateful for all of you definitely go get a copy of the book, I'll put a link to that in the show notes, as well as Hey, Juan's website. And just so grateful. Thank you to those of you who have left ratings and reviews, if you haven't done that, wherever you listen to the podcast, I'd really appreciate that. Also, I'm finally starting to get all of these episodes up onto YouTube. So go over to YouTube, find me there Shane Birkel. And you can start to watch the videos from these interviews. Really excited about that. This episode is sponsored by the Couples Therapist Inner Circle, which is the membership site that I created, about working with couples. And you know, at this point, there's hundreds of hours of content to help you become a better couples therapist, if you're just starting out, it's a really great way to get going. If you are a very experienced therapist, it's a great way to get education on working with affairs working with high conflict, couples, working with Emotionally Focused Therapy, relational life therapy, all kinds of different things. And there's a really cool, new way that I'm setting it up, which is that you can do an add on bonus to your inner circle, which is about the business of couples therapy. And it's all about building a profitable couples therapy practice. And I'm really excited. I've been working with a bunch of people on building their practice starting a podcast, being on social media more, all kinds of different goals that people have for themselves, how to use marketing. So I'm excited about that. If that's something that appeals to you definitely click on it in the show notes. And if you're just interested in the clinical side, then you can get that option. If you want to get the business side then you can get the clinical plus the business so there's something for everyone there. And also there, you know, please join the free Couples Therapists Couch Facebook group, if that's where you're at in your career, you just want to join the free group. That's another great resource to take advantage of. And I'm always grateful for ratings and reviews on wherever you listen to podcasts. Really appreciate that. This is Shane Birkel, and this is The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I look forward to seeing you next time. Thanks, everybody!